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Countering Congestion Pricing
Wednesday, March 26, 2008
Lewis Fidler, New York City Council member, (D-District 46, Brooklyn), voices his objections to the congestion pricing plan.
Councilman Fidler's webpage
Councilman Fidler's Alternative Plan
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Comments
If the purpose is to reduce pollution and congestion, then why does a Toyota Corolla pay the same fee as a Ford Expedtion? The Ford burns three times the gas and makes three times the pollution, weighs over twice as much, has a much larger footprint in traffic and block sightlines in traffic. Why not base the fee on the EPA City mileage of the vehicle entering the zone?
And what about carpooling? Why should three nurses carpooling to the hospital in a Civic pay the same fee as a stockbroker driving in alone in his Escalade?
He already pays over $40 in gas, tolls and parking--do you think another $4 will deter him from driving in and take the railroad?
Start the fee at one dollar at 25 mpg with an addtional dollar for every mpg below that. A Ford F 150 (the most popular vehicle in America) gets 14 mpg city and would pay 11 dollars--no deducting MTA tolls. This will change some driving habits--and make those who make the most pollution pay their fair share. Larry Ordine
The easy pass radio system is the easiest and least expensive way to charge for congestion. A progressive price based on the registered vehicle's EPA city mpg rating would be the fairest application of fees and would actually change driving habits.
The camera system just sounds like a way to get the Federal government to pay for a outdoor surveilance system covering midtown without the first amemdment discussion.
The four dollar refund on tolls is a sneaky way to put a eight dollar toll on the free bridges.
Larry Ordine
Larry, it's an interesting solution. I like it, but the problem I see is that it's completely dependent on an electronic exchange, but not everyone has EZ Pass. So how would you do this for cars without it? Will someone have to look up the car's MPG rating on the spot and charge them accordingly? Could cause quite a back up...
Councilman Fidler's plan is not a serious proposal.
The Cross-Harbor Tunnel? When is the estimated completion date? 2020? In any case this is not incompatible with congestion pricing.
Hydrogen Fueled cars? When is that going to happen?
Payroll tax? What Councilman Fidler seems not to understand is that it's better to tax undesirable things- like congestion- than desirable things- like income.
I hope you plan to question the Councilman about why it is better to push for a pipe dream than to accept the proposal on the table that will produce real results for cleaner air, safer streets, faster commutes, and 500 million dollars a year for buses and subways.
Bottom line---
We should all be supporting congestion pricing. This should be a no brainer. It would be foolish not to. People who oppose should just get over it and get on board. They are missing the "Big Picture".
This guy doesn't seem to realize that we have a massive transit system that brings people to any place they want to go in the city. You just don't need to drive. What an idiot.
The point is not just to raise money! its to reduce pollution, congestion, increase economic efficiency! There are no better ways to reducde congestion. Humans respond to economic incentives like no other incentives!
I hane no problem with the rich as the only people driving in the city...people should be taking public transportaion anyway...but when there is an influx of riders subways/buses will suck even WORSE
I live in the "zone", own a car, and am a SUPPORTER of a tax on cars driving in Manhattan.
However, the one problem that I have with this plan is that it already costs $8 to come into Manhattan from New Jersey if you pay cash. So, how will that stop anyone from driving into New York City?
The way I see this, is that it is a tax on New York City residents, mainly the outer boroughs. I think the city would be better served by closing off streets to passenger vehicles or forcing trucks to deliver overnight. In short, Tax New Jersey drivers more than City drivers.
has the concept of time spent in the zone been considered.
as e-z pass logs time,why can't it also apply to the period spent in the city.
ex.20 min grace and a gradual increments to the full charge based on time.
clock in clock out.
Wow, Brian. You must live in Manhattan.
Fidler fiddling while New York chokes on its own smog?
I haven't heard any discussion about how this will impact Brooklyn residents who have only one highway choice to go north -- the BQE. I -- and I am sure others -- use the FDR and West Side Hwy as alternatives to get north. During weekdays these roads (especially the FDR) are totally unused largely because of the lack of commercial vehicles. Anyone who tried to drive north on the BQE right after 9/11 with the Brooklyn Bridge closed will see the reults of this -- 2 hours to the Triboro!
I like how the councilman has tried to strike some sort of populist tone by saying only wealthy people would be able to drive "their BMWs faster down Park Ave.". Puh-lease. My family is from Sheepshead Bay and Staten Island; half the people there drive luxury cars these days... don't try to pander councilman!
Further, you claim many of your constiuents rely on cars, so why doesn't he advocate for park and ride or better mass transit?
Let's make it simpler, $25 tolls on all bridges and tunnels into Manhattan. Including weekends.
Brian, what is his solution to reducing congestion and pollution in Manhattan
I beg to differ with the Councilman, but the MTA express lines have quite a good number of new buses on the former Command lines!
From reading this board it sounds like the majority wants to linit cars in manhattan to help with congestion, pollution...I agree with them
Not only can Fidler not see the forest for the trees, he can't see the trees for the hands he's put over his eyes.
Some major issues that exist with the congestion pricing plan is that it charges motorcycles the same as cars, even though they get way more mpg's and are much easier to park and take up less room, the plan does NOT change the fact that the City limits new development of parking garages and spaces, and charge people who park IN A GARAGE. What gets a car off the streets?
PARKING IN A GARAGE.
There are also no extra costs for large trucks. One way to reduce congestion is to take large trucks out and use smaller vans and make deliveries at times when rush hour isn't taking place.
Lastly, to Zach, many times, it's just not feasible to go someplace and have to take 3 buses (In queens, not every bus goes to every area), and that would make it 4 dollars one way, eight dollars round trip. I would rather drive when that occurs. What we need are more parking lots by transit hubs, like how Queens Plaza has parking lots under the train tracks.
Lets not kid ourselves on how the money raised will be spent. Sure they will give the money to the MTA to spend on repairing and upgrading, specifically, with no way for that money to be spent on anything else -- all the while money the MTA currently spends on repairs and upgrading will drop dramatically. Just like the Lottery provide more money for schools, while the city council just reduced what it was currently spending. It's a wash, and once again, no one wins.
Our politicians and the MTA are using extortion tactics about reductions in service in order to convince us to impose the tax on goods and services.
UNLESS this bill sheds a spotlight on the diversion of funds from operating and capital expenses to other state budget items for the past 12 years. This Tax can only be legitimate IF ALL funds captured go to capital and service improvements ONLY AND if the current funding for MTA capital and operating expenses are NOT Diverted away from the MTA. This bill as explained is nothing more than 3 card monty!. -
I live on Staten Island and going through the Battery Tunnel and up the West Side Highway is by far the most convenient way for me to to get to Connecticut. Will the congestion pricing plan allow people to drive up the West Side Highway and FDR drive without paying the $8 fee?
I have to add to Dean's comment above. Is there any consideration of exempting the West Side Highway and The FDR as Arterials? I am one of those who Dean speaks of who has no other means of driving north than the BQE. I use more gas going the long way around manhattan and emit more pollution. How does that fit in with the environmental goals of this plan?
If we want to keep cars out of midtown, the solution is simple: not tax but tacks! Billions of them!
It sounded to me that the Councilman didn't mind a little overstatement. To say folks from Staten Island have no option but to drive seems that way. If that were true why is the Staten Island Ferry still in business? I've never made that trip on a weekday, how does taking the ferry to Manhattan and then an express subway train to Midtown compare to driving?
Is there any plan for those with Handicap Parking permits? My elderly husband is wheelchair-bound so I drive him and his wheelchair into the city if we have an event. A train/subway is not an option!
consider what the subways would be like without the taxi's and limo's! They are overcrowded now, the listner who suggested getting rid of the taxis probably doesn't take the subway three or four times a day. Perhaps he should find work in the pocono's, he is only seeing the problem from his point of view
what? ok the taxi cab issue is separate. (they should all be driving hybrids-period). but get rid of delivery trucks? duh! they are delivering goods and services to a city that you know needs many goods and services. you- on the other hand can drive to any spot outside the city and take public trans in.
Taxis (and I'm talking yellow taxis, not those fake black livery cars that prowl Broadway 24/7) are very annoying but necessary conveniences for when the MTA fails to provide. I consider them mass transit and think they should be allowed in a limited number, along with buses, in the city.
Conjestion Pricing will create more conjestion
in the city. Very Bad Idea. Will people have to stop and pay tolls?
In midtown below 60th Street, there are many businesses receiving deliveries from outside this area and people making them. Some people have to make several trips in and out of the city evryday for their business. The cost of these deliveries will increase and pass on to consumers.
The 59th St. bridge westbound ramp connects to 63rd street. If I drive in and continue uptown, do I avoid the $8?
ELDERLY FRIENDS NEED TAXIS TO GET AROUND, ESPECIALLY AFTER SUGERY ETC. SOME OF US DON'T HAVE CARS BEC. IF WE NEED A CAR WE HIRE A TAXI OR A CAR. OTHERWISE WE WALK OR TAKE MASS TRANSIT.
There's a weird trend towards thinking of cong. pricing as punishment or deterrent of some kind. E.g. "I'm an infrequent driver, so why should I be penalized?" as one caller just argued.
I think the strongest argument for congestion pricing is that it is simply trying to reflect the REAL COST of every SINGLE car ride, bar none, regardless of what kind of person is driving, etc. It's a universal price adjustment, and only a first step towards the much more expensive future (due to global warming).
As a resident who will be affected by this plan every time I use my car, I have two questions:
1. Do we really think that delivery trucks will alter their travel/delivery schedules just because of this pricing rule, or continue business as usual and pass the extra costs along to the consumer, along with higher gas and toll costs? Take a walk through Manhattan and look at the parking tickets on delivery vehicles. Clearly, illegal parking and the fines associated with it hasn't altered their driving patterns.
2. What steps has the City Council or NYS taken to reduce the biggest polluters in the city -- the diesel spewing trucks and buses? When you visit other large cities like Tokyo, you see brand new, low-emission trucks and buses and NONE of the older, smog-belching vehicles you see in this city. How about creating New York City Emission Standards that exceed California's, and really make an impact on our environment?
from Phyllis
I observe innumerable NYU buses in lower Manhattan ferrying around often a mere handful of young adults as if the city is so dangerous they need to be protected from actually walking or taking a city bus from their dorms a few blocks away. Not to speak of lines of these buses revving for long periods of time on Bway below 8th St. Noone ever speaks about this, a veeritable alternate bus system. We're elderly people who need to load our car occasionally for trips to the country.
People who drive cars-- any kind, make, model, etc. need to wake up to the fact that THEY are the problem. Pollution alone is a reason to just bite the bullet and take PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION. We have one of the best in the world, and people need to get over themselves and put their lazy butts on the train or bus. This makes me so angry! LESS CARS in Manhattan in a great idea, no matter how you cut it. Thanks, Brian for having this conversation today-- but I think I may need to turn it off because I can barely concentrate on my work!!
I say make it more difficult for people to get into the city without using mass transit, read the subway & buses not taxi cabs. If the rich have to take mass transit then this will lead to real improvement in the system because they will not subject themselves or their precious children to the a substandard system. This will benefit us all. This will only work if they truly have no real viable alternatives!
ban all cars. take the bus, take the trains or ride a bike. walking ain't a bad idea either. time to work off that fat ass. laugh if u want, but the end is near.
to Post#5 - Cap - What is the big picture about congestion pricing? How will congestion be reduced? - There have been no details as to how neighborhood parking permits will be implemented(Fee for that); WHy are taxis exempted? How will these fees be charged? How much will it cost to implement the camera and sensors around Manhattan? This is a plan pulled out of their asses without any thought - This is a TAX. If they want to implement a Tax - Please be HONEST - this does NOTHING for congestion
Paul, I agree that a lot of smog comes from trucks and buses that roll around all of the boroughs, not just manhattan. Imagine if instead of the large rig that parks itself in front of the Duane Reade to offload itself does so at 9 PM, like it does here in Forest Hills. Viola, that truck isn't causing major congestion when traffic volume is at it's highest, reducing slow speed and idling, getting the smog amounts down.
During the day, instead of those larger trucks like the soda delivery ones, use smaller vans. Sure they will double park and get tickets, like it always will be, but they won't be so big as to practically take up two lanes.
And does anyone notice how many streets are NO Parking or No Standing zones for truck deliveries, yet, there are tons of these places where there are still trucks double parked? Hmmm....methinks there's a problem there.
It's easy to blame the commuter since they don't have big lobbys and can strike the fear of leaving into the heart of a councilperson.
So let's go after renters, since the city loves sticking it to them with the rent laws anyway, suckers.
Congestion pricing is too LOW right now and does not cover enough of the borough. It should cost closer to $20 per day to come into ALL MANHATTAN. And the price should go up every year to keep up with inflation.
sorry, I meant can NOT strike the fear of leaving, thus taking big taxes and jobs with them.
Has the idea of an electric tram ever been discussed? Trams like those in Zurich are clean, efficient, cut down on road traffic and really enhance the city. We should have one on the east side, say along 2nd avenue (instead of the vastly pricey subway scheme), and one on the westside. They should run both uptown and downtown on the same avenues, from the top of the island to the bottom, stopping every few blocks. Road traffic would not have to be banned from the tram avenues. People would have a quiet, smooth running alternative to busses, so beholden to road traffic, and the noisy, dirty, gritty (and I don't mean that as a compliment) subways.
After listening to "Doctor" Mathieu Eugene on the show last year prior to the special election in the 40th district of Brooklyn, what a delight to hear such an articulate, intelligent council member in Mr. Fidler (even if I don't agree with all of his points).
To Douglas #20 - The reason we have larger trucks is because of a concerted effort by our brilliant politicians to push warehouses and other small businesses out of the City and the preferential treatment national stores get at the expense of Mom and Pop places.
Where deliveries usually were made from within the city, they are now made from warehouses 40-60 miles away- It makes sense to bring in a tractor trailer to supply the national retailers instead of small trucks or vans.
We have created our problems because of the low IQ and shortsightedness of our politicians and the ruling class in this City -
We want everything to be 'luxurious', 'glamorous' and 'shiny'. No 'dingy' stuff like a warehouse in a warehouse district. We don't want to think where or how all the things we consume get here as long as everything is shiny, covered in glass and sterile.
To David #41: Are you willing to pay $10 for a quart of milk and $50 to $60 for an entree at a mediocre restaurant?
If so, then you are a millionaire. Will businesses stay in Manhattan? Will tourists ever come to the City if you make it prohibitly expensive?
Remember that this is a tax to be passed on to consumers. Just because you don't drive doesn't mean you are not getting hit
In the name of environment? traffic congestion? health of our children? What??? Wow since when a tax did all that? What's next? Cure for cancer? World Peace and Harmony? Miracle on 42nd Street?
Only difference now is that there will be more room for Hummers and Limos to drive around. Oh for the CHILDREN!!! Perhaps this is some kind of MTA's way to push out the homeless people from subway stations by filling up the ALREADY CROWDED stations and trains with more people. BRILLIANT!!!
PULEEESE! If you want to reduce traffic congestion, do what every sensible CIVILIZED people would do; MAKE THE PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM FREE with metro communter transportation tax. If you want to reduce pollution in the city, start with its own government emission standard and ban street side parking. And reduce tax on parking garage (more efficient usage of space for parking). If you want to improve health of our children, mandate health insurance for every person under the age of 21 by subsidizing small clinics and private general internal medicine practices, not general hospital or multi-billion dollar operation like we currently are doing.
Here is my comment, since I live in the zone and were to use a cab just before the cutoff time (let's say 5:45pm) to my destination I still be charged the surcharge, right?! So if I wait the 15 mins, I would avoid the surcharge. Now if I were to board cabs (to the airport) before the morning start time (let's say 5:30am) but my arrival time puts me within the zone time period, I would incur the surcharge, right?!
Street Sweeper analyzes Fidler's arguments in detail:
http://spdiamondjr.wordpress.com/2008/03/31/fidler-on-the-roof/
His reasoning makes no sense. What's his REAL reason for opposing congestion pricing?
This thread is closed.
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