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Tiffany: This is All Of It. I'm Tiffany Hanssen, in for Alison Stewart. Have you taken the LIRR or Grand Central? Have you been popping around Grand Central lately? Are you eager to ride the Interborough Express? If you just have questions about transit in New York City, give us a call 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. You can reach us on social media @allofitwnyc. How are you feeling about open strollers on buses? Do you have a transportation issue that you want to bring to Stephen Nessen's attention? Stephen Nessen is here in studio. You can call him with a question, 212-433-9692. Stephen Nessen, of course, transportation reporter here at WNYC. Hi, Stephen.

Stephen: Hi, Tiffany.

Tiffany: All right. It's going to be a transportation-free flow this hour, so we're just going to have to go with it. I do want to start with some news that I saw this morning about this fix the MTA plan that certain lawmakers are putting forward and saying, "Here it is. Here's the fix for the MTA." What is it? Is it really going to fix the MTA?

Stephen: Well, the MTA has a lot of things going for it. First of all, it's not all broken. I took the train this morning, a very smooth, fantastic ride, but modernizing the subway system is really what the focus is for a lot of folks, modernizing it. The signals now, the majority of the system uses these ancient fixed block signals that essentially were there at the inception of the subway. Bring it into the modern era, digital signals.

If you ride the L train or the 7 train, you can run them closer together more trains per hour and it'll make the whole ride a lot faster and smoother, fewer breakdowns and whatnot. Advocates are actually calling for six-minute subway rides, a train coming every six minutes. I don't know what line you take, but it's very rarely coming every six minutes on the R train where I take it.

Tiffany: Yes, I'm on the one same.

Stephen: Certain lines suffer more than others. They're not all equally bad or equally good, per se. Anyways, there's a lot of focus and intention on modernizing it, as well as the financial issues. The subways are hurting for money. There's going to be a deficit coming this year, and then the year after that, and the year after that, and year after that. There's a lot of attention on that. Those are the core issues. Different folks have different ways of dealing with it. The MTA, the people who run it, the people who are advocating for it within the agency want more money.

Tiffany: Right. So far, these budget deficits are being addressed through fare increases, and?

Stephen: Well, that's one of them. [laughs] They are talking about a fare increase this year. We haven't had a fare increase for a couple of years now. You may remember they used to do biannual fare increases.

Tiffany: Right.

Stephen: Every other year, it would go up a little bit, not a lot, nothing too dramatic. You may remember years and years ago, the subways were flat, so low, and then there was like a massive increase one year. They don't want to do that. They don't want to shock riders like that again. That's why they gradually do it, but then they need the money. No matter what, yes, they're talking about a 5.5% increase, although we don't know exactly how that's going to work out yet. They still haven't released those details.

Tiffany: What is that in dollars? Help me with the math.

Stephen: Well, currently a single ride is 2.75. It could go up to $3. It could.

Tiffany: Okay. It could.

Stephen: They haven't announced that it will. I know that the MTA is doing everything they can to keep riders riding. They don't want to scare them away, but they do need some more money this year. Really, what we're all waiting for us in the transit world are waiting to find out how they're going to fill a $600 million budget gap this year. Supposedly, Governor Hochul is going to announce some tax that will help fill that hole. There's also talk with--

Tiffany: Yes, because fare increases can't touch that.

Stephen: Fare increases aren't going to fill that gap. There's hope. They've been dangling it before us that there will be some new tax on New Yorkers to help fund the MTA. The federal government may have something. Senator Chuck Schumer, a leading Democrat in Washington loves the subways, loves to help transit recognizes the importance of the MTA for the GDP of the nation [inaudible 00:04:40].

Tiffany: Yes. You mentioned this six-minute between subway trains arriving at the station. There's been another push for better service on the weekends.

Stephen: Sure. I'm not sure if riders necessarily notice it, but the MTA has gently tweaked the schedule to increase subway service on the weekends, slightly decrease it on Mondays and Fridays when statistically it shows there are fewer riders. There's a new norm that set into commuting schedules in this pandemic era, where it's like Tuesday to Thursday, traffic on the subways increases, drops off a little bit on Fridays, and then shoots way up on the weekends. Weekend ridership at the highest that I've seen recently has been 82% of pre-pandemic levels.

Tiffany: That's pretty good.

Stephen: We're almost back to where it was before the pandemic, whereas weekdays are having a hard time cracking 68%. Usually, it's 60 or below.

Tiffany: All right. Before we get to Grand Central Madison, which is the other big news this week, I want to go to Steve in Brooklyn. Steve, you got a question about Penn Station?

Steve: Hi, yes. Thanks for taking my call.

Tiffany: Absolutely.

Steve: I love transportation. I know that there's a renovation of Penn Station happening right now. There's a plan on the docket that is being approved green light, everything, and it doesn't address the serious issue with Penn Station, which is that it's a terrible terminal station. There's only one group that is really fighting for a better plan, which would bring our city into more of a world-class level. They're called Rethink Penn Station. They're the only people advocating against this other deal that's being made that is primarily just for real estate investors in that area. It's also going to destroy building. Their idea is to really make Penn Station what it used to be, which is this big station there, and right now, the plan just seems like it's going to hemorrhage money. Anyway, what do you think about that?

Tiffany: Yes, what do you think about that, Stephen?

Stephen: Well, thank you, Steve, for calling. I'm very familiar with the topic he's referring to. This is actually Governor Cuomo's original plan. Now it's Governor Hochul's plan to really remake Penn Station. To do that, to remake the station itself, she's talking about putting in ten skyscrapers in Midtown, around Penn Station, using some of the money generated from fees to those developers to rebuild Penn Station into this so-called glorious station with a skylight. Hochul's big dream is to have a Penn Station with natural light coming into it. If you've been there, it's quite dingy. It's not that.

As Steve was saying, there is some opposition. There's some lawsuits. Vornado, who is the real estate developer who would build these towers, has suddenly, like many developers gotten a little cool on development in Midtown at the moment with the current economy and the forecast. Where does this plan stand? It vaguely got a green light to sort of proceed. I don't have a better more legal description of where this plan stands at the moment other than they're still working on it. They're still developing it. We haven't really seen a plan, such as it is. We've seen back of the napkin math of how it would work. It's quite expensive. Like Steve was saying, it doesn't really solve the problem. Ultimately, it would beautify Penn Station, which is a nice thing, but would it increase service to Penn Station? No. Would it increase the ability to-- I guess it would increase the ability to get in and out more easily.

Tiffany: Or navigate your way around the station.

Stephen: Navigate your way around, but it's not necessarily going to increase the capacity. The same number of trains would still come into the station.

Tiffany: Right. While we're talking about Penn Station, let's pivot a little bit to this Grand Central Madison. It was pretty big in the transportation world. That was pretty big news this week. We have some Long Island Rail Road trains going to the east side instead of Penn Station. Explain what's going on, and what the grand opening is all about.

Stephen: Sure. What's now referred to as Grand Central Madison, New Yorkers for decades have called it East Side Access. There was a rebranding in the last year. They found maybe East Side Access a little too wonky to say, [chuckles] but Grand Central Madison, essentially a Grand Central Terminal on Madison Avenue. It's below ground. It's 150 feet below ground.

Tiffany: Yikes.

Stephen: This is a project, Tiffany, that has been talked about going back to the 1960s. In the '70s, they actually did begin digging a tunnel. It came to a halt during the financial crisis of the 1980s. Governor Pataki announced plans to revive this program in the late '90s as a way to get Long Islanders into Grand Central as opposed to just having Penn Station. At that time, they did drop some plans, and they were like, "I think this could cost maybe $2.8 billion and take ten years." Here we are, it's 20--

Tiffany: That was the '90s?

Stephen: That was the early 2000s.

Tiffany: Okay.

Stephen: Right.

Tiffany: 20 years ago.

Stephen: Yes. Fast forward 10 years, the price tag ballooned to $6.3 billion. It wasn't until 2007 really, that they started boring tunnels or should I say boring into the station because it's a massive station underground that we got some federal money. Fast forward to 2018, this project is nowhere near completion. It's a complete disaster as far as management goes. Governor Cuomo brought in this planner, Janno Lieber, who is now the chairman of the MTA.

Tiffany: Sounds familiar. Yes.

Stephen: He had great success getting the World Trade Center project over the finish line. He brought Janno in to look at this project, figure out what the heck is going on, what is wrong here. As the way Janno describes it, it's very technical stuff. I'm obviously not an engineer, I'm just a reporter. Essentially he tore up the old plan, which had been balkanized into different parts. He said it was hundreds of different small projects, essentially all working at the same time and conflicting with each other. He ripped up that game plan, created 40 discreet projects that could be completed on a deadline, and the way he says it, they did it.

Tiffany: Well, they did, sort of, right? They missed it by a couple of weeks.

Stephen: They missed it by a couple of weeks, but essentially they got it done.

Tiffany: They missed it by a couple of weeks because?

Stephen: Well, at the very, very end, they've been banking on this 2022 end-of-December completion turned out there was a ventilation issue that they hadn't foreseen. It's a big engineering project, but somehow the airflow was not proper. It was sending air in the wrong direction. The new terminal wasn't taking enough air. Janno actually told me that just to solve this problem, they just built a wall to block some air so it didn't go in that direction. Temporary solution, but they got the station open this week is the headline news. Do you want to hear the final price tag?

Tiffany: I'd love to.

Stephen: We initially put it at $2.8 billion when we conceived of it. In the end, it ended up costing $11.6 billion.

Tiffany: All right. Well, if you have a transportation question for Steven 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. You can find us on social media @allofitwnyc, and it's transportation free for all. If you have a question, let us know. You were at Grand Central this week?

Stephen: I was there. I was there for the grand opening.

Tiffany: You saw?

Stephen: Well, I saw the terminal, but can I tell you a quick story about-

Tiffany: Love to hear it.

Stephen: - arriving. I'm a reporter. I cover transportation. I've been to this place many times. I've been to Grand Central personally and for work, and I've been to the new terminal as they've been constructing. I was there when it was just mud in the ground. When I arrived for the grand opening, the big day, the decades in the making project-

Tiffany: Billions of Dollars.

Stephen: -unveiling. I get to the clock and I'm looking around for a sign. I don't see a sign, but I look at the white marble where it has all the descriptions of here's Metro North, here's the Subway, and I see, oh, Long Island Rail Road. There it is. I go past the Metro North Stations. This is still at the mezzanine-

Tiffany: Sure.

Stephen: - level where the clock tower is. I follow the sign and I take a right and I see another sign. I say, "Great. I must be on the right path here." I go around the corner and I see some unpainted walls and some old boxes, and I'm thinking, "This doesn't look right. Maybe I took a wrong turn." I backtrack and I see a flower stand. The flowers are partially obstructing the letters, but I see, oh, Long Island Rail Road. Must have taken a wrong turn. I follow that route and I end up at a hotel that's connected to Grand Central, and I ask the doorman, "Where is the new terminal?" He gives me a puzzled look and I say, ''Grand Central Madison.'' He looks out the window, he's like, ''I think it's across the street." It's not across the street.

Tiffany: This is not going well.

Stephen: I know that much.

Tiffany: This is not going well.

Stephen: I backtrack to the clock tower, I take another look around and finally I see, oh yes, there's food. There's the lower level for Metro North and Long Island Rail Road. That must be it. I go down the stairs. The first thing I see is Luke's Lobster, which I think replaced a coffee shop that was there. Then I turn around and there's the entrance.

Tiffany: You made it.

Stephen: I made it. A friend who works at the MTA described it as it's like finding a secret bedroom in your apartment you didn't know you had.

Tiffany: [laughs] Nice and big.

Stephen: Once you get down there, then you're like, "Oh, there it is." It's a huge concourse. The ceilings, I have to say, are not as high as I would've expected. Still a little low, but higher than Penn Stations were.

Tiffany: All right. Well, let's take a little bit of a break here from Grand Central Madison. Joshua in the Bronx, you have a question about an access plan for new stations. Hi, Joshua.

Joshua: Hi. Yes. I was wondering with the Penn Access plan, are they going to be once the trains leave the Bronx and go past the Hell Gate and going into Queens, are they going to make a stop in Queens before going into Manhattan and Penn Station?

Tiffany: Well, Steven.

Stephen: No. What the caller's talking about is the next big step for the MTA as far as getting Bronx residents a little bit of love. Yes. Now that some trains will not go to Penn Station. They'll go to Grand Central. That allows more room at Penn Station. They're going to start bringing some Metro-North trains into Penn Station. Typically, Metro-North would just go to Grand Central. Now they're going to go into Penn Station, which is a great way for Bronx residents to get from the Bronx to Manhattan superfast.

Tiffany: All right. I want to bring another Bronx resident in here, Giovanni. Welcome to All Of It, Giovanni.

Giovanni: Oh, hi. Thanks for taking my call. I actually, I love public transportation, but I end up driving a lot because I'm between Long Island and New Jersey and that's not easy. I was just wondering what's the plan for charging cars coming into Manhattan. Also because I'm a Riverdale resident, we had worked on that bridge Henry Hudson for decades and there was something being discussed about giving residents of Riverdale a free ride on the bridge, but then I haven't heard any follow-up to that. I was wondering if you have any updates on that.

Stephen: Sure. Thanks for calling. I think the topic you're referring to is known as congestion pricing. That is moving forward. The MTA is hoping to get a final signoff from the federal government really any day now. Once they get that final signoff, it'll be another year until it's implemented when they start charging cars a fee to enter Manhattan below 60th Street.

Tiffany: We're not looking at congestion pricing in 2023.

Stephen: No, not in 2023, because it'll take at least a year once they get the approval.

Tiffany: Got it.

Stephen: We missed 2023. [chuckles] As far as what the call was talking about, like getting an exception or an exemption, it's unclear. They haven't announced who's going to get any breaks. Certainly, New Jersey residents are fighting hard for breaks. People who live in Manhattan want a break. Everybody wants a break. If you give too many breaks, the program fails because you're not going to make enough money, you're not going to reduce congestion. This is a very hot-button issue. I expect your phone lines to explode right now.

Tiffany: All right, good to know.

Stephen: It's not clear who's going to get any exemptions, so.

Tiffany: Right. That's all just being hammered out now.

Stephen: Well, you would think so.

Tiffany: In theory.

Stephen: There is a body of, a member, a panel of experts who are thinking about this. It's not clear that they've met yet to discuss what the fee would be, how much people would be charged, and who would be exempt.

Tiffany: All right. I want to get one last call in here really quickly. Peter in Scarsdale. Hi, Peter.

Peter: Yes. Hi. What's going on with the tunnels under the Hudson River? Hurricane Sandy flooded it, corroded it. Amtrak goes through there. There was federal money, but Governor Christie canceled it. Wouldn't allow it. What's going on with that?

Stephen: Yes. This is a topic I know well. We're going to hear a lot more about it next week because president Biden is coming to New York City on Tuesday to make a big announcement about how the federal infrastructure bill is going to play into the Gateway project, which is what the caller's asking about, the tunnel between New York and New Jersey that was damaged during Sandy. Governor Christie had a moment when he could have built a new tunnel, the ARC Tunnel, but ultimately he killed it to use the money to do things for New Jersey, chief among them, not raise the gas tax in a year that he's going to run for president.

Tiffany: Talking about Joe Biden.

Stephen: Yes.

Tiffany: There has been pushback about congestion pricing from New Jersey as well, right?

Stephen: Yes.

Tiffany: Tell us about that.

Stephen: Well, it's interesting. First of all, we should just say New Jersey has no say in this whatsoever. It's an MTA project, so they can't exactly do anything. There is a New Jersey Congressman, his name's Josh Gottheimer. He's a Democrat and he's teaming up with a Republican congressman from New York to try to torpedo this with a bill that doesn't seem to have the traction or support. It's not going to pass the Senate, but maybe it'll pass the house. Then we have Governor Murphy, who's also very critical of this plan to charge New Jersey drivers. He has some sway in that-- This is actually all connected to the last caller, the Gateway Project because New York needs New Jersey to be its partner to fund half of the Gateway Project, or I should say a quarter. New York and New Jersey would pay a quarter. Federal government will pay the other half. They all need to work nice together. I guess Murphy does have some cards at the table for this battle. Essentially, yes, he doesn't want his drivers to pay a fee to cross the Holland Tunnel or the Lincoln Tunnel, or the George Washington Bridge, and then have to pay again when they arrive in New York. The MTA has dangled the possibility of some credit to drivers who already paid to get into Manhattan, but it's not clear. It's not clear how much that's going to be.

Tiffany: Got it. We have a few calls here in just this last minute about Uber. Crowding of Uber in the city, lots of Uber drivers in this city, Uber drivers also wanting pay increases. Just say a few words about what's happening with Uber right now.

Stephen: Well, basically the Taxi and Limousine Commission approved a raise for yellow cabs and for Uber drivers last year. There was a lawsuit filed by Uber who said, "Hey, we're going to lose so much money by doing this. It's going to put us out to business. We can't do this." Essentially, they won. Uber drivers did not get that same pay bump that they were going to. That is unfortunate for them, I suppose. Maybe for Uber, the company, it's good news. Yes, at the same time streets are overcrowded, the congestion that we've talked about.

Also, they may be getting knocked with that congestion fee on top of the fees they already pay. It's unclear where that's exactly going to stand. Uber drivers are understandably not happy about not getting a raise. It doesn't seem clear what the pathway to getting some pay bump would be at this point.

Tiffany: There's still a lot up in the air this year for 2023 as far as transportation is concerned, as per usual.

Stephen: As per usual, a lot of unsettled issues. The next few months will be very exciting. We've got more information about Gateway, more information about congestion pricing. We'll find out about the fair increase for Subway riders, which I know a lot of folks care about. Our streets are going to get changes, bike lanes, bus lanes, and the city's doing its best to protect everyone, so they say.

Tiffany: Stephen Nessen, thanks so much. Stephen covers transportation for WNYC. Stay with us on All Of It. Up next, the Sacred Souls in five minutes right after the news.

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