( Mary Altaffer / AP Photo )
Nancy Solomon, WNYC reporter and editor, host of the “Ask Governor Murphy” monthly call-in show and of the podcast "Dead End: A New Jersey Political Murder Mystery", talks about the issues around acknowledging LGBTQ students and families in school and how that is showing up in the Congressional election in New Jersey's 7th district.
[music]
Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone on Monday, October 3rd. Happy October, everyone. I hope you like fall because it's really here now, right? The stores are featuring Halloween stuff. The fall produce is in. The summer fruits and vegetables are fading out. The heat went on in my building for the first time this season last night, and we needed it. That Autumn chill was in the air and in my bedroom and if it's October, election season is upon us too. Five weeks and a day until election day in November.
Early voting begins about 10 days before that depending on where you are, and absentee ballots go out in the mail even before that. Happy October, happy fall season. Happy election season for real this month, and so trying to be a pro-democracy public radio station and not just a horse race, politics as sports coverage outlet. We continue our midterm election series, 30 issues in 30 days on this show where we promise you 30 actual issues on 30 consecutive shows before the election, not just the horse race, and not just personal attacks that are also intended to distract voters from the real issues that affect our lives.
The personal attacks that sound like issues but are really distractions. We began the series last week if you missed it with three parts on abortion rights as an issue in these elections, followed by two parts on immigration. This week, we'll also focus on two different topics, climate as an issue, and the culture wars in education and we'll start there right now. Republicans nationwide are running on an education theme of what they call parental rights.
You've heard about this probably. It's mostly an attack against teaching things that are negative in American history, and an attack on teaching anything positive about LGBTQ Americans. You'll remember that Florida recently passed the called Don't Say Gay law for their public schools and that the Virginia governor's race last year, and this is a big reason why it's gone national in many campaigns. The Virginia governor's race last year resulted in a win by Republican, Glenn Younkin partly because of his campaign for what he called parental rights, focused mostly on banning certain kinds of teaching about racism, mislabeled critical race theory.
New Jersey is no exception to parental rights as an issue, including in the state's most closely contested congressional race in which Democrat Tom Malinowski is vying for reelection against Republican Tom Kean Jr. in the seventh congressional district. A swing district and for those of you not familiar with the jersey map, a little south and west of New York City, including places like Summit and Westfield closest to the city, and then out route 78 to the Pennsylvania line.
An article on nj.com just yesterday was called NJ's new sex ed standards hit the classroom as criticism rages in some districts. Now as elsewhere in the country, The Republican candidates' focus on parental involvement in education is largely on the issue of gender or sexuality inclusivity framed as age-inappropriate and even smeared as pornography, as you will hear in this clip. This is Tom Kean Jr. on Fox in August, talking about the state's new sex ed standards. This clip begins with a Fox News host, Bill Hemmer.
Bill Hemmer: The upgraded standards now for second graders is for teachers to talk about the range of ways people express their gender and how gender role stereotypes may limit behavior. Well, what would a second grader [crostalk], sorry? What would a second grader understand about that, helped me out?
Tom Kean Jr.: Well, they wouldn't be able to understand that which is why parents across New Jersey, Republicans and Democrats alike stood up against the standards. Parents have shown us in every study that the more the parents are involved in the kids' education, focus on core education curricula and those priorities and mutual respect in our classroom is what allows these kids to succeed and having a curriculum that includes gender identity, and sexual education and exposure to pornography on issues as young as second grade in any school district is wrong.
Brian Lehrer: Republican congressional candidate in New Jersey seventh congressional district Tom Kean Jr. on Fox in August. His response to that exchange from the Democratic incumbent Tom Malinowski on the WNYC show, The People's Guide to Power with Brigid Bergen last Sunday.
Tom Malinowski: My opponent who you mentioned, Tom Kean Jr. has jumped on this bandwagon of bringing the culture wars to New Jersey. He went on Fox News a few months ago and accused elementary school teachers in his hometown, actually, Westfield, New Jersey of teaching pornography to second graders. It's obviously not true. It's nothing to do with the State Education, sex education guidelines. Just think about what a horrible thing that is to falsely accuse an elementary school teacher of. I think the political purpose of this is just to stoke fear and anger and then to try to use it to win elections.
I mean, if I'm a parent and I hear a politician tell me that teachers are sexually grooming by my second-grade teacher, I'm going to be pretty upset about that, and pretty concerned, and it just happens to be not true and that's what has really upset me. We need to be recruiting more teachers to teach our kids. That's a big problem right now. We have a teacher shortage in New Jersey and all across the country and recruiting teachers into a situation where politicians are going to accuse them of horrific things like that, it's even harder.
Nancy Solomon: Malinowski tried to reframe the conversation about parents to say what he thinks parents are really most concerned about when it comes to the public schools.
Tom Malinowski: I think parents should have input on every aspect of their kids' education and ever since I've been in this office since 2018. I've been talking to parents, to teachers, to students, I do assemblies and meetings at high schools all the time and I get a range of concerns from folks about our schools. The number one concern probably going back to when I first started running for office was safety. I meet a lot more parents who want to protect their kids from guns than parents who want to protect their kids from books.
Brian Lehrer: Tom Malinovski on The People's Guide to Power here last Sunday. You get the idea. Let's talk about it. Issue six in 30 issues in 30 days. Now, I want to thank WNYC's Nancy Solomon for filling in for me on Friday when they did issue five, asylum in the border and Nancy is right back as our leadoff guest for this week right now, as many of you know, she covers New Jersey. Hi, Nancy, thanks for putting your reporter's hat back on and coming right back on the show.
Nancy Solomon: Thanks, Brian. I'm happy to do it.
Brian Lehrer: First, can you explain the news hook event here the implementation of new sex ed standards or what was called in one of the clips, upgraded standards for New Jersey schools?
Nancy Solomon: Yes, they've just gotten into effect. They've been discussed for the past year or so but with the new school year, they've just gone into effect and of course, there just seems to be a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding about what these are. I understand that when parents think that their kindergartener or second grader is going to be taught the birds and the bees in very specific ways, or if they think, for instance, during the gubernatorial race in 2021, there was this story floating around of a parent told the Republican candidate Jack Ciattarelli, I can't remember what grade it was but her youngster came home and said that he learned today that he could be a girl instead of a boy.
It was something like that. I might have the actual details wrong, but this has inflamed people. When I read these standards, I just don't see-- To call it pornography is crazy but it's really like, let me just read to you Brian, for sex ed by the end of grade two, this is what kids are supposed to have learned by the end of grade two, that every individual has unique skills and qualities, which can include the activities they enjoy, such as how they may dress, their mannerisms, things they like to do.
The second point, families shaped the way we think about our bodies, our health, and our behaviors, and the rest of it is about family and communication. This is really being blown out--
Brian Lehrer: Even with that, somebody might say, "Oh, why should they be talking about their bodies in a teacher-led classroom discussion in second grade?"
Nancy Solomon: Yes, but I mean, don't kids need to get healthy messages about their bodies? I come from it from the other side. I just don't see the need to shield kids from this information. I don't think we're talking about sex acts. That's not what's being talked about in these young grades.
Brian Lehrer: Sure.
Nancy Solomon: I'll tell you one interesting personal experience I've had raising kids is that when our youngest son joined the Cub Scouts, there is a whole chapter at the very beginning of the Cub Scout manual, it's kind of like the Bible for being a Cub Scout in which you have to sit down with your son and go over very, very explicit stuff about unwanted sexual advances and teaching them about it. Which is a sad thing.
Brian Lehrer: The history of what scout leaders and the Boy Scouts have done.
Nancy Solomon: Yes. Now, I was the parent doing that, and that's what parents are saying is they should be the ones doing this, but kids need to know that their bodies are theirs and it's not right for anyone to touch their body in a way they don't want them to. I mean, we're talking about some basic messaging for kids that is about growing up healthy and safe. I've spoken with Governor Murphy about this and that's what he says. He says this is about giving kids really important information that they need to understand.
Brian Lehrer: You heard the Fox News host, Bill Hemmer in his question to Kain in the clip you played refer to second graders being taught according to the standards as he cited them, the range of ways that people express their gender. Now, that was not in that list that you just read. Is that in the standards for second grade, like non-binary gender expression or the concept of being trans or anything like that?
Nancy Solomon: It doesn't drill down to that level of specificity. I think it's set up as a framework of, this is what we want. This is the overarching goal, and teachers are supposed to come up with how to do that. The language that I found on the state's website is every individual has unique skills and qualities, which can include the activities they enjoy, such as how they may dress, their mannerisms, things they like to do.
We're talking about, some parents are freaking out about this idea of their kids being taught gender identity. Well, what is that? Must girls wear pink? Is it okay for a girl to like sports and play sports and be good at sports? Are girls good at math and science? Should a girl grow up to be president someday? I mean, that's the level of what we're talking about. I think that's what the state is getting at in terms of how to talk to very young children about gender identity.
Brian Lehrer: Right, but from the list of topics you read for the second grade standards, there's not even the word gender in there. Never mind a reference to the range of ways that people express their gender as a range. I mean, so the premise of the host's question in that interview seemed to be based on misinformation.
Nancy Solomon: Yes. It's Fox News and I agree with you there. I will say this, I think there is something to be said about the fact that we are in a moment in which things are changing really fast involving gender identity and transgender young people. I think parents are having trouble with this. They are struggling with it. I don't mean to say that this is being blown out of proportion, but it's also hitting home because it's going right to the heart of a concern the parents have.
The thing is this it's happening and it's happening whether teachers address it or not. Kids are talking to each other about this, and for the first time in my life, I have experienced elementary school-aged kids who make a determination that they were born into the wrong gendered body and they want to change their gender. All my life I never saw kids that young-
Brian Lehrer: Talking about that.
Nancy Solomon: -talking about that. I know kids, I know kids of friends of mine who are transgendered, who are very young but the fact is it's not coming from teachers. These kids are absorbing what's happening in the culture. There is a new openness to this idea and this fact, and they are grappling with it, and they're grappling with it with each other. They're talking about it at school without teachers bringing it up.
Brian Lehrer: Listeners, especially if you are the parent of a school-aged child in New Jersey, and especially, especially if you're the parent of a second grader in New Jersey, which is where the political controversy seems to be residing mostly around these new sex ed standards. As an issue, even in the congressional race between Kean and Malinowski, even though that's really a state issue and a local school boards issue. This is being raised as it is by Republicans around the country as a congressional issue.
Parents, do you have an opinion or a question about teaching gender or sexuality inclusivity in schools or at what age? Do you have an opinion or a question about what role parents should play in their child's in school education in general since this is being framed as a parent's rights issue? What issues have you gotten involved with as a parent? Do you think this is just a way to weaponize homophobia and transphobia that people have into a voting block or anything else related, especially if you're a parent, especially if you're a New Jersey parent, especially if you're a New Jersey parent of a second grader?
I see we're getting a call from somebody who teaches sex ed to elementary school kids. Amanda in Brooklyn, we're going to take your call first here in just a second. Anyone else related 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 with our New Jersey reporter, Nancy Solomon, who also of course hosts the monthly program, Ask Governor Murphy, here on the station. Amanda in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.
Amanda: Hi, Brian. Thanks for having me. I am an early childhood sexuality educator. I teach a program called Our Whole Live. It is a program that was actually developed by the Unitarian Universalist Association. It's one of the most comprehensive sexuality programs in the country. Expands the age range from kindergarten all the way to senior citizen. I specifically teach the kindergarten and first-grade program. I've been doing this for several years now, and this program has actually been around since the '90s.
The main goals of this program are to provide children with age-appropriate information about their sexuality on a variety of different topics with the ultimate goal of helping develop healthy sexual adults and safe senses of sexuality. The specific topics that we teach in kindergarten and first grade, we have eight different workshops. The first two workshops are just devoted to bodily anatomy, external and internal and body diversity, understanding the bodies come in many different shapes and sizes and that all types of body types are celebrated.
Then we go on to talk about sexual abuse prevention. In my opinion, that's the most important reason why it's so necessary to teach children at this age about their sexuality is because we're--
Brian Lehrer: Nancy was saying the same thing a few minutes ago, go ahead.
Amanda: Yes. We can't do that if we don't provide the information to our children that they need at the time that they need it before those things happen.
Brian Lehrer: Let me jump in for time and ask you a follow-up question. Sorry, did you say you teach this in the New York City public schools in kindergarten and first grade?
Amanda: I actually teach this at a church. I teach this at First Unitarian Universal Congregation of Brooklyn but this program is taught in many secular communities as well, including schools around the city. This program can be used by anybody, any organization. We are trained by OWL, Our Whole Lives Association.
Brian Lehrer: The difference, I guess the people on the right who object to this teaching in the public schools would say between what you do and what the issue is in the public square is this is voluntary associated with your church that parents can put their kids in or not. That much is fair, right?
Amanda: Yes. There are schools that they have come together and they've rallied together. The parents themselves have rallied together to bring this program into their schools because it is such a valuable program. It provides such needed information and parents have really actually, all the parents that I have talked to are desperate for their children to receive this information.
Brian Lehrer: Amanda, I'm going to leave it here and get some other folks on, but I really appreciate it and I really appreciate the specificity with which you described what and how you're teaching to the kindergartners and first graders in your program. Let's go to Kylie in Ridgewood. You're on WNYC. Hi, Kylie.
Kylie: Hey.
Brian Lehrer: You have a story for us, I see.
Kylie: Sure. We moved to Ridgewood from the Upper West Side this month, and the first week that we moved in our next-door neighbor who lived in the neighborhood for 50 years, knocked on the door and had a printed article that she handed me and said, "Welcome to the neighborhood. Here's a pretty bouquet of flowers and I wanted you to know that they're going to teach your young school-age kids all about sexual acts." I was like, "What?" She gave me an article that is talking about what we're discussing and she said that her priest, I'm Catholic.
She's Catholic. Her Catholic priest had told her to go and knock on the doors of parents of young school-age kids and let them know this is happening. I had to do my own research and saw that it was this political agenda, misinformation campaign. I talked to her and she's older and there were parts of it that maybe weren't ideal but you have to let that go. My point is that I think there's an overlap here that hasn't been discussed in the last caller was really great to say that within her religious context, there are people who are encouraging this conversation but there's also this other side of the conversation which is from a religious agenda.
Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much, Kylie. In the nj.com article Nancy that just ran yesterday, it also was talking about one of the districts, let's see, which district, in Haddonfield. The second paragraph of the article says, unnamed adults handed out the envelopes labeled, "Concerned about what your children are learning and Haddonfield's schools look inside." It was exactly the kind of thing I guess that Kylie was just describing. Have you come across this yet?
Nancy Solomon: I have not. I saw that article and these stories have come up. One of the interesting things is that the statewide teachers union, the New Jersey Education Association in some ways added fuel to the fire but they came out with a video early in September that showed images of parents screaming at school board meetings and called them extremists. Basically, it was a shot across the bow to basically say, "We're going to fight this. We're going to fight you. You're not going to get us to back down. We're going to point out what are the political roots of this movement."
It's unclear to me, I haven't done enough reporting to be able to tell you whether this is grassroots or AstroTurf. I haven't been out there at those school board meetings. I've heard some--
Brian Lehrer: You want to make that distinction for people? I know what you mean, but is it grassroots or is it AstroTurf? Which means--
Nancy Solomon: Grassroots meaning it bubbles up from just ordinary parents who become active because they're upset and they organize in their communities or is this a funded and organized attempt from the top down from some political interests? AstroTurf is used in lots of different movements, but one of the most famous ones is the Koch brothers who are super wealthy, oil and gas magnates, funding anti-climate change stuff.
Is it top down coming from politicians who want to use it as a wedge issue or organizations that are anti-gay that are trying to whip up this stuff or fundamentalist organizations who have their whole shtick about this? It's hard to know where it's all coming from but at this point, I think it's scary for parents. They get this information and they don't know what's being-- You send your kid off to school, you don't know what's said when those doors close and the teacher's in there with them. I understand that it's scary for parents but I think there's a lot of manipulation going on.
Brian Lehrer: We're getting a call from Nora in Maplewood who says she helped write the New Jersey Sex Education standards. Nora, thank you so much for joining the conversation. Welcome to WNYC.
Nora: Thanks so much, Brian. Happy to be with you.
Brian Lehrer: What would you like to add?
Nora: Sure. I am a sexuality educator. I work at Advocates for Youth. I helped write both the National Sex Education standards, as well as had feedback on the New Jersey updated standards which actually aren't that different from 2014. I think unfortunately as Nancy was saying what we're seeing is a small group of really extremist really propping up controversy where there is none. The vast majority of parents with school-age kids really support comprehensive sex education, including teaching about gender identity and sexual orientation. These groups are really just hoping to confuse and scare parents away from what we know is in the best interest of all kids.
Brian Lehrer: Nora, thank you very much, Nancy, you told us before we went on the air that you covered Kean Malinowski Forum last night where a number of issues came up and this issue did not come up. Do you take that as a sign that Kean has now identified this as a losing issue for him rather than a winning issue for him? Based on what Nora who helped write the standards just said that this is really a small minority of parents who are concerned about the sex Ed standards the way they've been written for the state.
Nancy Solomon: No, I don't take that from it. I think this was just a very specific thing. It was a forum put on by the Jewish Federation and they had a very clear format in which each candidate came on consecutively not together, and answered the same questions. The questions were very focused on antisemitism, Israel, Iran, although abortion did come up and was asked about but Kean wasn't asked about sex Ed or parental choice. I think that's really the only reason why it didn't come up.
Brian Lehrer: Where do you think that Kean Malinowski race fits into how this issue was playing this fall nationally in congressional races? Part of the context here is that this isn't actually a congressional issue, it's for local school boards and the state, but it's being brought up in school board elections too in some communities around New Jersey. I'm seeing where it actually lives. Why is it in the congressional race at all here? Do you see it in national context?
Nancy Solomon: Totally, because I think it's being used very effectively as a wedge issue, just like every other wedge issue we've ever seen. It works, and when something works candidates running for office are going to use it. I think the roots of the Tom Kean use of parental choice and just as a little fact about this, the only event he had held since the primary, since the real campaign of the general election campaign began, the only event that he had held where voters could come and meet him and talk to him in something that was scheduled was a parental choice forum.
You had to make a donation to go to it and the press were not allowed, but nonetheless, it was a parental choice forum and so last night was his first public appearance. Getting back to your question, this has its roots in the, as I mentioned briefly, the race for governor in 2021 when the Republican Jack Ciattarelli got a real bump, a real bounce from bringing up this stuff about that your kids are being taught about sex in kindergarten.
Brian Lehrer: It's one of the reasons you think he came closer to defeating Murphy than a lot of people expected last year.
Nancy Solomon: Yes. It worked here in New Jersey. I think that's what's fueling that particular, the New Jersey side of this, but sure, the Kean-Malinowski race fits into what's going on nationally in every way. There is nothing going on in that race that does not fit into what we're seeing in terms of national politics. The differences between the Republican candidate and the Democratic candidate, the fact that this is a race that will contribute to determining which party has control of Congress come January 2023. This has become the wedge issue. The right wing has won on abortion, and they are clearly moving into gender.
I think critical race theory, you mentioned it very briefly. I think teaching about slavery and race is also a hot-button issue. Certainly, how better to whip people up and get them scared than to talk about that your kid's going to come home and tell you that they want to change their gender. They've landed on something that is very effective for them. There's been 290 anti-gay, anti-LGBT bills introduced in state houses in the last two years in this country. I mean, this issue is not going away.
Brian Lehrer: Let me take one more parent call before we're out of time. By the way, listeners, David Remnick editor of the New Yorker is standing by to join us live to talk about a few different things coming up as our next guest, stay tuned for David Remnick. Stay tuned first for Meghan in Maplewood. You're on WNYC. Hi, Meghan.
Meghan: Hi, Brian. How are you?
Brian Lehrer: Good. You're a parent, I see.
Meghan: Sorry. I'm a parent of a transgender student here in Maplewood. Our daughter began to question her gender identity in third grade. There's so many points that Nancy has made already. I just wanted to touch on them from real-life experience. If my daughter had had this kind of I think sexual education in the classroom, it would have really helped her through her exploration in elementary school. She ended up not identifying and transitioning until seventh grade.
I think this really would have helped her to put a name to it to figure out how to express herself to us. It doesn't come from the teachers either to Nancy's point. Culturally, all the kids are aware. We have two younger children. When our daughter started to transition, none of their friends even batted an eye. It was, "Yes, they're a girl now and this is their name, and everything's fine." We just move on because we're all kids exploring, or they're all kids exploring their identity and asking these questions and talking to each other. It's not about the teachers or indoctrinating anyone.
It's that teachers and the curriculum are supporting what's happening in the society, like Nancy just mentioned, with critical race theory. The curriculum should be reflective and supporting what's happening in our communities. I just will say one last thing is we live in Maplewood and we live in New Jersey for our transgender daughter, for her health and her safety. It is extremely expensive to live here and to live in this state. We feel like we have to do what's best for her and that transgender youth all over this country are being attacked by all of these bills that Nancy just mentioned.
Brian Lehrer: Not every community in New Jersey is as progressive as Maplewood is the point you're making, right?
Meghan: Exactly. Yes, but not every state is even as progressive as New Jersey on a whole, in terms of policies for her health and job protections. It does make me sad to see that there's this group being propped up that's attacking families' choices and attacking specific types of youth. I do hope it's not successful in the place where we at least feel safe as a family. That's all.
Brian Lehrer: There we go. Meghan, thank you so much for that. Thank you for all of that. Nancy, before you go. You mentioned that abortion came up at the Kean-Malinowski forum last night, and you have a clip of something that was said by Tom Kean Jr., the Republican candidate that that might leave people confused about his position on abortion rights, which is obviously a major issue this year. We're going to play the clip. Then I'm going to ask you to clarify so People aren't left confused if they've heard that clip in the media, or if they were at the forum what his position is. Here is Tom Kean last night.
Tom Kean Jr.: I support a woman's right to choose. I have a 20-year career in the legislature reflecting that fact. I think there are reasonable exceptions. It should be rape, incest, life, and health of the mother.
Brian Lehrer: He said he supports a woman's right to choose but there should be exceptions for rape, incest, life and health of the mother, which is usually what you say if you say you're pro-life, but with those exceptions. What is his position?
Nancy Solomon: Well, that's the problem. It's completely unclear. I wasn't the only one confused, the audience was very confused. After he said that one man shouted out, "Are you pro-choice or not, answer the question." I think the reason people were frustrated and confused is because that statement made no sense. He said it twice in his presentation because he was asked again about it later when they took questions from the audience, and then--
Brian Lehrer: Did they put it in the same way, the second time?
Nancy Solomon: They put it the same exact way. Then there were three reporters there. The three of us chased after him after the event, because one of the problems that we're having covering this campaign is that Tom Kean isn't doing interviews with us and we're not being alerted to events that we could attend. No exposure to the campaign whatsoever, and no interviews.
We all went chasing after him to try to get more from him. This specifically, Charles Stile from the Bergen Record asked him about it, and he repeated it again. It's impossible to know what was going on, I guess is what I can say as a fact. He seems to not really be grappling with the ideas and the policy and the information which is astounding given how long we've been living with the abortion debate. He seems to be sort of regurgitating a practice sentence that somehow he was ill-prepared for and he got a mistake in it. That's the closest I can come to understanding what happened.
Brian Lehrer: Unresolved is the last word in this segment with WNYC New Jersey reporter and host of Ask Governor Murphy on the station, Nancy Solomon. 30 issues in 30 days issue 6, parental rights in education as an issue in the Kean-Malinowski race. Nancy, thanks a lot.
Nancy Solomon: Thanks, Brian.
Copyright © 2022 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.
New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.