A Congestion Pricing Relaunch

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. You know how we often do call-ins at the end of the show on something personal to your life or how it connects with something in the news? Well, you already know the headline from the story we're going to talk about next. Governor Hochul is trying to revive congestion pricing before Donald Trump takes office and has the power to kill it if he goes through with that campaign promise or threat. Our question for you today is, "If you were against congestion pricing originally at $15, are you more okay with it at $9?" 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692. Here's nine seconds of the governor yesterday.

Governor Hochul: You heard that correctly. It was $15 before and now it is $9. That is a 40% reduction.

Brian Lehrer: That's a 40% sale on something you weren't paying for at all in the past to drive into Manhattan below 60th Street. Is this going to land okay with you if $15 didn't? 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692. Call or text. As we welcome back to the show, our transportation reporter Stephen Nessen. Hey, Stephen.

Stephen Nessen: Hello, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Is it different from the original congestion pricing plan that was supposed to go into effect in June in any other way?

Stephen Nessen: Well, like you said, it's a 40% discount or sale. I think maybe to simplify everything for everyone, everything is cut by 40%. The original daily charge for drivers was $15. Now it's $9. That's going to extend to the taxi fee, to the truck fee, as well as to the discounts. Remember, there was toll discounts on the Holland, Lincoln, Hugh Carey, and Queens Midtown. Those are all going to also be cut by 40%.

The only thing that's not being cut, apparently, is the amount of money that the MTA is going to get. Somehow through the math that they're figuring, the MTA is still going to get the $15 billion that was part of the original congestion pricing legislation requirement. They're just going to pay it off over a longer period of time.

Brian Lehrer: It's not voodoo mathematics? They're going to be able to-- The $15 billion wasn't coming directly from the congestion pricing fee.

Stephen Nessen: That's right.

Brian Lehrer: It was the anticipation of eventually getting that much money through the congestion pricing fee that the MTA was going to be able to borrow $15 billion, get it through bonds right away for mass transit improvements. Just by making it a 30-year mortgage instead of a 15-year mortgage, to take the home buying analogy or whatever the actual timeline is, that it's still going to help the MTA as much right away.

Stephen Nessen: Sort of like that. Yes. Kathryn Garcia, who's a high-ranking Hochul aide, sort of explained it to us as basically they're giving the MTA a $15 billion credit card and they're just going to pay it off over a longer period of time. I would be hesitant to say the 10 or 20-year mortgage because they said the length of the bond repayment won't be different.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, so I'm confused.

Stephen Nessen: There's a little more explaining to come on the financial front.

Brian Lehrer: Okay. I wonder if it would make it harder in the future for the MTA to raise more money for future improvements that it's going to need because this isn't a one-shot, right? You have to keep investing in your transit system.

Stephen Nessen: Right.

Brian Lehrer: I guess you and I are both going to have to look for an explanation on that, how they can reduce it to $9 and have no impact on the good it does.

Stephen Nessen: I've done a lot of reporting on MTA debt over the years, and one thing that everyone tells me is that it is one of the most reliable bonds that investors buy because riders are always going to ride. Except I guess during the pandemic, there's always going to be fares coming in. The MTA is a fairly reliable bond seller or issuance of bonds. Investors always like MTA bonds.

Brian Lehrer: Barbara in Woodside, you're on WNYC. Hi, Barbara.

Barbara: Hi. Hi, how are you? This congestion pricing is crazy, especially for people who live in Queens. It appears that, number one, I'm asking, are trucks required to pay and why aren't they paying more? Because they do more to cause congestion pricing. Number two, it appears that when you leave from Woodside to go to 59th Street Bridge to go into the city, you've got to pay to go back to Queens. There's no way of getting back to Queens on the 59th Street Bridge without paying a second time. We're now going to be paying $18 to go into the city.

The third thing is, are people aware of how many hospitals are within that area that we can't get to now, unless you're going to pay that extra money?

Brian Lehrer: Barbara, thank you for all those questions. You and I, Stephen have talked about the 59th Street Bridge situation.

Stephen Nessen: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: It's one block below 60th Street where that cut-off is. Does it mean that people are going to pay the toll coming in and going out of Manhattan? I'm not sure that part's right.

Stephen Nessen: It is true, Brian. I think this is our most popular question. As a result of that, Clayton Guza, my editor, and I went deep into exploring this and we have a very clear succinct answer. If you are going into Manhattan, you can go north of the tolling zone. You don't need to pay just to enter Manhattan. You can go north to 60/61st Street to all the doctor's appointments north of the tolling zone, but yes, when you go back to Queens, you will have to pay the toll because you'll enter the tolling zone even very briefly to get back on the bridge, that is true.

Brian Lehrer: Because that's where the access points are. She asked about trucks.

Stephen Nessen: Yes, trucks will pay more. Large trucks will pay more, about $21.60. A smaller truck would pay $14.40. I would maybe disagree that they're the biggest creator of congestion in Manhattan. As Sam Schwartz said this morning, it's really "for hire" vehicles like the Ubers and the Lyfts that create the most congestion. Their fee is relatively low but they do pay per rider, so that's different.

Brian Lehrer: Mitchell in Brooklyn, also opposed, I believe. We're not getting people on the phones at the moment. I'll just say, I realize it's a small sample and opponents of things tend to call in really fast because that's just human nature. Mitchell in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hello?

Mitchell: Hello, Brian. This just infuriates me. The fact that they try to say it's about congestion or it's about the air quality and it's nothing but about money. This is a way to tax the people, grab money, and use them as a piggy bank. I think it's just so unfair. It's one of those things where I became a Hokul fan because she paused it. This is one of those hot-button issues where I think the Democrats are deaf. Economy is an issue. People can't afford things. That's an issue. This is enough to make me start voting Republican. It's that big a deal to me and I hate that.

Brian Lehrer: Why not think that this is at least an earnest effort to improve mass transit in and around New York City instead of just calling it a cash grab? It's not like they get to put this money in their pockets.

Stephen Nessen: Well, why is it congestion pricing? Why does congestion pricing have to pay for that? That's not the answer. The people who use the transit system should pay for it. If I'm driving a vehicle, why should I have to pay for it? That doesn't make sense. That doesn't match up to me. I have family members from London who said it doesn't work there, they said, "They play with the numbers to make you think, oh, it's reduced by a certain percentage," but it's the same traffic, the same air. Nothing has changed using the eyeball test. That's what infuriates me.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. Thank you for the call. Appreciate it. Call us again. Well, how would the MTA or how would the governor answer his question, especially the part that says, "Aren't there other ways to raise this money? Why tax the drivers for the benefit of the mass transit riders?"

Stephen Nessen: Well, I guess to the question of will it reduce traffic, yes, they say it's going to reduce traffic in Manhattan by 13.4%. There's going to be maybe speeds will increase by half a mile. The governor has explored multiple ways to fund the MTA, to find funds for the MTA. Bridge and tunnel tolls have been a big driver of funds for the MTA over the years. You pay all kinds of MTA bridge crossings and that funds mass transit.

Fares, obviously, fund mass transit. People pay for tolls on bridges all the time to fund road repairs. This is another way to fund the mass transit system. I guess some folks would also argue that drivers are heavily subsidized. Our taxes also pay for road repairs, also pay for all the parking spaces that could be used for other things. A lot of people who don't drive still pay those taxes.

Brian Lehrer: Bus and train riders pay for the roads.

Stephen Nessen: Exactly.

Brian Lehrer: This is now supposed to take effect January 5th. That's 15 days before Donald Trump will be sworn in as president. How clear or unclear is it that by putting it into effect before Trump takes office, that he won't have the power to stop it?

Stephen Nessen: It's truly not clear at all. That question, of course, was posed to the governor yesterday. She's just steadfast in her belief that it's going to work. It's, "We're going to do our best, we're going to fight it." There's a whole slew of congressional lawmakers just chomping at the bit to kill this. There's reports that Trump could just issue an executive order to rescind the approval of the program and that would be that and it would be over.

Of course, he said very publicly that he will terminate it on day one. That was before he was President-elect. Now that he is President-elect, he's a little more conciliatory, I think, to Hochul, saying he has great respect and he looks forward to working with her. Something I don't think we've heard before. He still says he disagrees with her decision and calls it the most regressive tax known to womankind. Then adds man, as mankind, womankind.

Brian Lehrer: We do have one supporter of contested price and calling in. I'm going to give her, I think it's woman, a voice. Maddie in Jersey City around WNYC. Hi, Maddie.

Maddie: Hi. This is Maddie. I'm actually with my five-year-old right now in Jersey. We love congestion price. We've loved it from the beginning. You might hear my five-year-old in the background. Sorry about the noise.

Brian Lehrer: That's okay. Another kid makes their radio debut on the Brian Lehrer Show. Do you live in Manhattan in the congestion zone?

Maddie: Oh, no, I live in Jersey City, but I have family in Manhattan. Basically, I just wanted to ask how this money is going to help people like me who are coming from outer boroughs if we're not on the MTA. I guess I'm coming from Jersey, but you know what I mean. Can any of this money go to NJ Transit or Port Authority?

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. We've got 30 seconds, Stephen, very relevant question.

Stephen Nessen: The answer is very simply no. All of it goes towards improving subways, buses, and a little bit for the commuter rails. That has been one of the complaints from people from Jersey that it's not going to be any easier. Their NJ Transit rides are not going to improve. That's on your governor, Governor Murphy, to do that. He's been steadfastly opposed to congestion pricing and has even sued to stop it. He could also use the money to improve his own state's mass transit. Once you arrive in New York City, Maddie, the agency says you're going to have a faster, better commute, more reliable with this money.

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Brian Lehrer: January 5th, mark your calendars, drivers, and we'll see if it actually takes effect then or if one of these lawsuits stops it. If it does go into effect, what, if anything, the Trump administration does to stop it? Our transportation reporter Stephen Nessen. Stephen, thanks for hopping on.

Stephen Nessen: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: That's the Brian Lehrer Show for today and for this week. Have a great weekend, everyone. Stay tuned for Alison.

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