[MUSIC - Luscious Jackson: Citysong]

Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Kousha Navidar in for Alison Stewart. On November 9th, 2017, The New York Times ran a story that featured five women accusing comedy giant Louis CK of sexual misconduct. Louis was, at the height of his fame, a beloved, misanthropic stand-up comedian with a hit TV show. The women said that he masturbated in front of them. One claimed that he began masturbating while she was speaking with him over the phone. These allegations were known as a kind of open secret around the comedy world, but it was the onset of the Me Too movement, coupled with allegations from comedian Jen Kirkman, that finally led journalists to take a serious look at the story. In response to the report from The New York Times, Louis CK issued a statement of his own writing, "These stories are true. The power I had over these women is that they admired me, and I wielded that power irresponsibly. I have been remorseful of my actions, and I've tried to learn from them."

Yet, months later, Louis CK returned to the comedy stage with new material that mocked his accusers and downplayed the allegations. He's selling out Madison Square Garden. He won a Grammy, and the whole situation called into question what being canceled even means for someone as famous and influential as Louis CK. A new documentary produced by The New York Times dives into this story and speaks with some of CK's accusers. It is titled Sorry/Not Sorry and it is playing now at the IFC Center, and it's available to stream through video on demand. Joining me now to discuss are the directors of the film, Caroline Suh and Cara Mones. Welcome to All Of It.

Cara Mones: Thank you.

Caroline Suh: Thank you so much for having us.

Kousha Navidar: Absolutely. Caroline, let's start with you. This is a story that was in the news a lot a few years ago. Why did you want to make a documentary about it now?

Caroline Suh: I was a big Louis CK fan and followed all of his work. When the article came out, to be completely handed, my reaction was, is this so bad? I had a sense that I was on the wrong side of things by thinking that, and I really wanted to just have a conversation about what had happened, what it meant, and to try and understand how you navigate through these issues with an artist who you're a fan of.

As time went on, my feelings about it evolved as we were making the film. As I began to reach out to women who were in the article, I realized that, really, I was asking the wrong questions and training my focus onto Louis CK was really not what I should have been thinking about. Really, I was more interested in what happened to people for speaking up.

Kousha Navidar: The conversation for you became much more about giving voice to the victims.

Caroline Suh: Yes. I think everyone working on the film, we had a lot of debates about how to think about these issues. I think for me as a Gen Xer, I think my focus was different than the focus of younger people who had a less retrograde way of thinking about it than I did because when I came up, this was all on the spectrum of normalish behavior, even though outrageous. That's how I looked at it until I really dove into the story.

Kousha Navidar: Cara, I'm wondering, was it difficult finding subjects willing to speak with you on the record about this?

Cara Mones: So much of that work was done by an incredible producing team that we had who really worked to build trust with the people who did speak in the film. I think that we were surprised by how many people didn't want to speak in this film. I think that this is a hard thing to talk about. I think that it's understandable that for a lot of people, there isn't a lot to gain to speak about this issue.

Kousha Navidar: Caroline, for those who aren't as familiar with Louis CK, how would you describe his comedy and his public image before the accusations went public?

Caroline Suh: He was known as someone who was very insightful and brutally honest about his own foibles and about human nature. I think people liked his humor about his children and thought that that was new, the complete honesty about the difficulties of being a parent.

He also seemed to be on a progressive side of things with his comedy. It seemed like he was in on the joke and understood that when he talked about various problematic behavior by men, that he was talking about it as someone who knew that it was wrong. That really has changed over time, I think, since the article and then everything that happened after.

Kousha Navidar: Yes. I want to play a little bit from one of Louis' stand-up specials. This is when he talks about how dangerous men are to women. Let's listen.

Louis CK: A woman saying yes to a date with a man is literally insane and ill-advised,-

[laughter]

Louis CK: -and the whole species existence counts on them doing it. How do women still go out with guys when you consider the fact that there is no greater threat to women than men? We're the number one threat to women. Globally and historically, we're the number one cause of injury and mayhem to women. We're the worst thing that ever happens to them. That's true.

Kousha Navidar: That was Louis CK from one of his stand-up sets. This is part of the documentary Sorry/Not Sorry which is available to rent on video on demand. Cara, Louis is a smart guy. Do you think he really didn't see the irony that he was behaving exactly like the guys he was just making fun of in that clip?

Cara Mones: It's hard to know what Louis is really thinking. I think that we tried to stay away from speculating about what was going through his mind. For fans, I think that it is striking to see how he speaks about what had happened now in his stand-up. I think that we saw in the statement in The New York Times that he acknowledged that these stories are true. These aren't allegations. He has acknowledged that these are true. Then to see how he speaks about it in his stand-up now where he talks about it as a kink or as if the women had said yes I think is surprising and I think disappointing for a lot of fans who are used to him being so honest about human behavior and his own shortcomings.

Kousha Navidar: If we think about before the confirmed allegations broke out, Louis was very, very popular, still continues to be, obviously. Cara, why do you think his comedy appealed to so many people?

Cara Mones: I think he was giving voice to some things that people were feeling but didn't know how to say out loud. I think that, for me, I hadn't been a fan before, so it was interesting to learn why people were so attached to Louis and to see his jokes about raising young kids. I think that you can see there are some horrible things that you might think but not want to say out loud. I think people did become attached to him in a unique way.

Kousha Navidar: Caroline, a lot of the documentary is about how the things that Cara's describing, the behavior of Louis CK was "open secret" on the comedy circuit. When we say something was an open secret, what do you really mean? Is there an estimate of how many people might have known about Louis' behavior?

Caroline Suh: I don't have a numerical estimate, but according to Megan, who is one of the people in the film who tried to bring the subject up and was shut down and received a lot of hate for it, the fact that she knew and she was just a young comedian doing open mic shows, and she had heard from a bunch of people and she knew, it must be that almost everyone knows. Especially once the Gawker article came out and I think once that started to make the rounds, I think a lot of people had known about it. As journalist Alison Herman says in the film, there were no names attached to it, so it was easy to just, as she says, focus on the work and ignore all of these rumors.

Kousha Navidar: Was there a sort of maybe pattern that emerged in the accusations, though, a way that the assaults really usually played out?

Caroline Suh: Based on the reporting in the Times and based on Jen's interview, from those stories, there wasn't any physical contact and it did involve masturbation, which hopefully, I can say on live radio.

[laughter]

Kousha Navidar: I already said it in the intro, so I got you covered. [chuckles]

Caroline Suh: Okay. Those were commonalities from that limited pool of stories.

Kousha Navidar: You mentioned a few people that you spoke with for the making of the documentary. You also spoke with comedian Jen Kirkman about her experience with Louis CK. Cara, I'm wondering, what did she tell you about what happened between her and Louis?

Cara Mones: I'm going to toss that to Caroline because Caroline was the fortunate one to do that interview.

Kousha Navidar: Sure. Caroline, if you could, go ahead.

Caroline Suh: She talked about him in various workplace situations, what she felt and what, in hindsight, seemed like workplace situations that he had made sexual advances toward her. One was at a bar, in a lounge, and then one was at a comedy club. I think these are areas in which a lot of people might say, "That's not technically a workplace." It's hard for people to see those places as workplaces, but in comedy, those are stand-ins for what we might consider a usual office. What she describes is behavior that didn't leave her crying in a bathroom, but that made working and going through her career harder than it needed to be.

Kousha Navidar: How did she decide whether or not to come forward with her story?

Caroline Suh: I think she was just fed up. I think she was on a tour in Australia and she had gotten a lot of flack for her comedy, which did have sexual content in it. I think she had gotten criticized for that, so she just one late night went on her podcast and just ranted about how she was getting so much criticism, but there are guys in comedy who are out there actually doing the things and not just making jokes about them. That set off a whole domino effect of her being linked to Louis in the news. Even though she didn't say his name, I think that's when some of the open secret started.

Kousha Navidar: We got to take a quick break, but when we come back, we're going to dive more into the industry itself that allowed this sexual misconduct to happen as an open secret, as you said. We're talking about the documentary Sorry/Not Sorry which is available to rent on video on demand. It goes into the sexual misconduct of Louis CK and how he has come back onto the scene. We're here with directors Caroline Suh and Cara Mones. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

[MUSIC - Luscious Jackson: Citysong]

Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Kousha Navidar. We are talking about the documentary Sorry/Not Sorry that takes a look at the sexual misconduct of Louis CK both before it broke out and then the repercussions, and now Louis coming back onto the comedy scene. The film is available to rent on video on demand right now. We're joined by directors Caroline Suh and Cara Mones.

Cara, for you, you saw all of the footage, all of the interviews. I'm wondering if you could encapsulate what the female comedians told you and Caroline about the behavior they regularly had to endure for male comedians because this behavior is a symptom of a larger issue problem in the industry. Can you talk to that a little bit?

Cara Mones: Yes. I think that comedy is a difficult industry to be successful in, and I think that it's a difficult industry to be a woman in. I do think that there is a whisper network of try and stay away from this person, you don't want to be alone with that person. I think that's common in a lot of industries. I think that through hearing the stories of the comedians in our film, it became clear just there's so much at stake when you're trying to be successful.

I think it was disappointing to some of the female comedians how little was done when these rumors were growing. That so many people knew about these rumors, but so few people were wanting to speak out or speak up for someone because people want to work and they want to get jobs, and when Louis and his team of people are very powerful and hiring lots of people. I think it takes a lot for people to feel like they want to stick their neck out for somebody else, and I think that that can feel disappointing.

Kousha Navidar: It was interesting that Jen Kirkman told you that at first, she thought Louis was just doing a comedy bit with her before she realized he was being serious. Caroline, how do you think the culture of the comedy scene could perhaps encourage or at least allow for these kinds of scenarios where women might expect to hear some gross jokes from their male counterparts?

Caroline Suh: It seems like the world of comedy prides itself and is based on the celebration of being transgressive, which there's nothing wrong with that. I think saying certain things that might be off-color, or I think people try jokes on each other and test out bits with each other, so I think that wouldn't be an unusual circumstance. I do find that part of the film and her saying that is particularly ego-busting potentially if Louis were to watch. We have no idea if he has or if he hasn't, but that would, I assume, make the male ego sore hearing her talk about it

Kousha Navidar: Thinking about the larger context of the comedy industry in general at this time as well, we're talking about this open secret, but someone who admits that he was complicit in this was Michael Schur who hired Louis on his show Parks and Rec. He talks quite honestly in the documentary. Cara, what did Mike tell you about why he decided to bring Louis on the show despite what he had heard?

Cara Mones: Mike talks in his interview about how he had heard the rumors, but he didn't know if they were true. He didn't think that it was his problem, is what he says. I really appreciate that interview because I think that it's a stand in for what I think a lot of us have probably experienced in our lives where we hear a rumor, but we don't know if it's true or there are no names attached to it. At the time, it doesn't feel like it's our place to do anything. I think for him, he's making a show and he just decided it wasn't his problem. I think it's striking later in his interview in the film where he says he realizes, "If it's not my problem, then whose problem is it?: I think that that's something that's very relatable.

Kousha Navidar: You include in the documentary this footage of a nervous-seeming young man asking Jon Stewart at a Q&A about the allegations against Louis as well. This part really stuck out in the documentary. Stewart very clearly laughs it off and says, "No, I haven't heard the tweets." After The New York Times piece, Stewart goes on Howard Stern and says that he didn't know. We see those two clips. Caroline, what do you think of Jon Stewart's response to the situation? Why did you want to include those clips?

Caroline Suh: Just to clarify on Howard Stern, Jon Stewart says, "I didn't know, but if I did, would I have done anything? I don't think so, and that's what disturbs me." Just to be fair to his thinking, he's just being totally honest about, really, would he have done anything, and he's saying no. I think I am of and was a fan of Jon Stewart and he also is one of those people like Louis was previously who seems to be on super smart and insightful and someone who you look to for guidance and navigating current events. For him to admit that, I think, as in the case of Mike Schur, we can relate to that.

What he says really rang true for me because coming up in the industry, I saw certain things. Did I say or do anything? No. In some situations, if I'm honest with myself, would I have even if I had known? I'm not sure. I hope I would now after working on this film, but I think he's being pretty honest and once again is reflecting back, I think, what a lot of the audience might feel as well.

Kousha Navidar: Louis did not deny the allegations. He came out after the article was published and said, "These stories are true." He has made a comeback. There's this whole part of him coming back to the Comedy Cellar about 10 months, I believe, after the allegations. Caroline, what did the owner of the Comedy Cellar tell you about why he decided to allow Louis CK to come back to doing stand-up there?

Caroline Suh: Noam said that he's not the arbiter. He shouldn't be the gatekeeper and decide-- If people want to see a comedian, then who should he be to stand in the way? That was a surprise set at the Comedy Cellar. Noam actually brings up a lot of interesting questions, which he also brings up in an episode of The Daily, The New York Times podcast, in which he says, "Who's supposed to employ these people? Are they supposed to become wards of the state or are they never allowed to ply their trade again?"

At the time, at the beginning of the film, I thought those questions were really interesting, but then I started to worry less about what happens to all these guys and more what happens to the women who come forward and then get tons of hate as a result.

Kousha Navidar: Can you describe, Caroline, a little bit about the impact that these women have faced since then? We go through it in the documentary.

Caroline Suh: Yes. I think Jen, for instance, she's a very successful comedian. There came to be a point when she would be promoting one of her books or specials that all people would talk to her about was Louis, and so she stopped doing promotion, which is obviously not good if you're a working comedian trying to get your work out there. Then Abby and Megan just stepped away.

I think Abby, who was a woman who he masturbated on the phone with, she says she went into hiding, not because what he did was so devastating, but it was a pile on of a bunch of negative things. She got so much hate for just saying the story of what happened to her. She got a lot of hate. Then Dave Chappelle picked up that story and then made it a regular part of his comedy specials for which he also won a Grammy. Anyone who says that they're doing it for their own benefit is completely wrong. It's really service because they really have nothing but negative responses usually when they come forward.

Kousha Navidar: Cara, on Louis CK's side, some people have an idea of Louis CK being "canceled". How true do you think that is?

Cara Mones: I think that his career is definitely different now, the platforms that are available to him have changed. As you see in the film, he's won Grammys, he's sold out at MSG. He's still very successful and he still has a fan base that is there for him.

Kousha Navidar: Yes. I think this situation brought up the messy question of, what do we do with men who have behaved badly, especially if what they did may not seem like such a big deal to some people? Caroline, I'm thinking of what you said right at the top of this segment. Cara, for you, what did the comedians you spoke to have to say about that?

Cara Mones: I think that the comedians in the film really helped me understand and helped the viewers understand that we focus so much on these men and what should happen to them or not happen to them, but what about all the other people who haven't had a chance? That's something that Jen Kirkman says towards the end of the film. When you see all these people coming back, and what about everyone else who hasn't had a chance? I think that it raises questions around why we spend so much time focusing on the accused and we don't think about the people who are impacted by their actions.

Kousha Navidar: Caroline, I'm going to give you the last question here thinking about what Cara just said. For people who think they might have their mind made up about the Louis CK situation, one way or the other, how do you hope Sorry/Not Sorry might maybe challenge them in some way?

Caroline Suh: That was always the purpose of the film, is that people would watch it and then go ask a lot of questions and have conversations about it and think about their own lives. We don't want to tell people what they should and should not consume, but I think it's worth thinking about. We found making the film to be really helpful in terms of being aware of what we're consuming and who's making it. I think it deserves some thought. We hope that it just makes people walk away with a better understanding and asking themselves to take a harder look.

Kousha Navidar: The film is Sorry/Not sorry. The documentary is available to rent on video on demand. We were here with directors Caroline Suh and Cara Mones. Thank you both so much for your work and for coming on to talk to us about it.

Caroline Suh: Oh, thank you so much.

Cara Mones: Thank you so much.

 

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