Title: Patricia Marx Interviews: Al Hirschfeld
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Patricia Marx. Interview each week at this time your city station brings you an interview with a
leading figure in the arts politics or the sciences and here now to introduce
today's program is Patricia marks.
I have with me today Mr Al Hirschfeld who is the outstanding
character tourist of the theatrical world.
Mr Hirschfeld drawings have been gracing the front page of The New York Times' Drama section for over
twenty five years his works have been printed throughout the world and they hang in
our leading using humans. Among his best love books our show
business is no business and Herzfeld on American
theater. Mr So when did you do your first caricature.
How did this come
about well action employee like most things.
I went to the theater in the early twenty's and I did a drawing on the back
of
a program. Kind of a
doodle of I think it was good tree Sasha good
tree and the press agent of the show asked me to do this on a
clean piece of paper and he would take it to around to a paper.
I did that and following Sunday it was printed and in the Tribune
on rather large and then I started doing a weekly drawing for them
and then one day I received
a telegram from solid tower the times I thought it was a friend
of mine pulling my leg and called up The Times and asked for Xyloto
and sure enough there was such a
man and he asked me to do a drawing of Harry
Lauder and I did that and I looked at the dash downstairs
and this procedure went on for some years about three years I never met anybody at the time
and I always received a
telegram. Assigning me to do a specific
drawing and Monday and that's there in the lobby. I
was met Sam Zell it down he said You are the most mysterious man on the paper.
And I said why no man ever get by the dome and and so I
don't like some I come down to come up and cheat on the show I dead in there and that I can show it to him
friends from then
on will I understand that at the time when when you first did
this first drawing that you were painting and you had been a sculptor before. That's right it was just was
the work you did before this related to portrait one on writing
is you know I mean sculpture is a kind of US A drawing a fall over in the dark really you know.
It's all drawing the one form or another it's just you were
doing people. Yes and I've always been interested in
graphic things. And due to the limitation of
the actual printing in a paper which is predator very.
As I saw just a bit better than toilet paper really you know and as you have
to learn to use
the limitations of that paper. You can't get to and so it's research it's
all restricted except the printing itself is so
primitive that that limits you into a simple
almost calligraphic. Medium.
Would you say that you would do this differently if you had Laura.
Oh yes. Yes Well I would use
three dimensional things I would do more things in depth with the
grades and different techniques. I've tried this on various occasions but
I'm always disappointed in the result in the
printing it never has any quality of
no sprightliness and it just is dead like a photograph.
Mr says. You seem to stand alone in this field particularly in terms
of the theatre is capturing a dying art then.
In this country it's has never been a very fashionable or popular.
I wouldn't say. It's been fashionable and not popular such put it that
way publications like Vanity Fair.
That died during the depression has never
been replaced the New Yorker hasn't replaced it with the
New York originally
had some good caricaturist Birnbaum and free.
But in recent years it's become stilted I
think graphically except there comics I think I've done had a tremendous and
very good influence on the graphic art throughout the world.
But in the field of caricature very little as there's hardly any outlet left in this
country you think it really is a matter of fact it is not popular there's not much demand
why I don't know the demand out that's a chicken and egg thing you know.
The editors are at fault here. They seem to
think
that and quite rightly in some cases I think that
caricature as pokes fun at
people. Well it
doesn't well it does. I suppose almost any interpretation.
If that person is humorous it comes out humorous you know if it's.
Dramatic it's comes out
dramatic the character doesn't invent that person he
merely translates in graphic terms what exist. And it's not a question
of distorting physical defects are
advantages that people
have it's a question of interpretating them I mean it isn't essential to make up for someone who
has a big nose to make it bigger that becomes a grotesque gray and very the
Germans one and a lot for that and the English too in some strange way.
My sense of it is I don't know whether the word caricature is even a right terminology as.
I like to think of them as character drawings with I hope some.
Weapon involved but I never.
Have subscribed to the idea that it's necessary
to trade on these physical attributes that people have you know
The yourself that you. Recognize your friends not because of any.
Peculiar physical thing I mean you see a man a block away. You don't know whether he has large years or
small years but you know what
Joe. Something about him not he is
one unique one out of the whole millions of people and have it the
world and you recognize them. You'd be hard put to it to want
to translate into words what about this man why
you recognized him.
It has nothing to do with his clothes you could be wearing a brand new
suit and he doesn't have to have a distinguished gator of peculiar walk but there's
something about him. That's Joe
and that's all and anyone would recognize him as a second question of capturing a character.
Without a how to and then the final thing how do you do this if you don't take the obvious
and exaggerate that that's why I thought to try how would you recognize a friend of
yours a block away. And the snowstorm you would recognize him. How would you
do that it would be a difficult for me to explain how I would do it. As for you. It's
a similar problem in both cases maybe you hadn't thought about it but.
It's the same problem
actually within what would be the difference between the drawings that you do and
portrait or drawing as a portrait there. This is me as a
different Yes Well that depends on physical copying of an
existing thing. It's the physical things.
The shape of the head. They know the eyes
the color of the head. All of that is terribly important and without it you would have
no portrayed and caricature. None of that is. You can leave out all
the
features I had and still no.
Effects of the successful one a child could recognize
that when you have to do something to compensate for
this could be done with certain symbols for instance in public life.
Informing is more so than today since everyone is becoming a blob.
But. That were in politics and in that they don't
distinguish personalities that you could who develop sort of trademarks
Brian Williams Jennings Bryan had a and kind of a bird's nest in the back of
his
head that caricature a star cartoonist jumped
on. George M. cone and the cane chapel on
the Derby on the proletarian feet. You know that the George gross invented
the proletarian with his feet going you know all the
proletarian artist did
that because it was a recognized symbol throughout the world whether gross. Consciously
did that I don't know but Chaplin became the little man symbol all throughout the world and
some proletarian or whenever you would do a proletarian you have to have him with his feet going out like Chaplin or it was
not a proletariat and capitalists were pigeon
toed the symbols became recognizable to everyone doesn't that lead to
stereotypes then. Well as no and it doesn't it leads to ought all
the OP has form that's accepted. I mean
you could say that the Egyptian audience stereotyped our El Greco
as stereotype because all Greco painted everything in the long gated terminal with a wonderful sense
of caricature. As I use the word.
But it also had a highly religious. And the
static. Effect on the view of.
The nothing stereotyped about a church a stereotype but it has
a functional.
Architecture but I would think that the thing that distinguishes your drawings are
the individuality. Other than the symbol of prison being a probably tell
you every aristocrat.
Except you get to learn to read symbols you know for instance the Balinese
have way of
drawing. The women they have their eyes your straight line under
it and round on top. The man is a straight line on top round at the
bottom and they the demon.
Devil is around I completely
circle and so this is communicable and it can be
read by the Balinese very easily just as we can read our people have learned to
read various symbols and.
In painting and in OP What kind of symbols. Do you.
Well it's hard to say since I haven't. While
I say you have
to
look because they're not whenever I do develop
a thing that has what you say stereotype quality I abandon it because
it's no good for me. I vow from
that another phone and otherwise I take the reader along on this kind of
a linear adventure. You might say that from a simple
spiral which would be an eye and recognizable to a child.
I can leave out parts of the spiral and add other things to it and other words it
becomes a graphic problem and a very personal thing between me and
my pen in order to communicate what I'm trying to say
this sounds a little involved I know but I can't explain it any other
way but it's not really a conscious use the symbol then is
it not a conscious use of some Bowl but you can't help but bring it down to its
essence and that becomes a
symbol a.
Certain stance of a girl. Stablish or as I lay.
Straight Walker are
a cabaret entertain a
hairdo. A hat a bowler
McCain patent leather shoes spats
pearls all sorts of things that people wear are symbols.
And they're recognizable when you put them in a drawing it immediately establishes or helps
establish a certain face of her character.
Well you know what you do the same thing that an actor and actress would do. I mean
to establish a character they have to get the right stance in the right outfit and the right hat. That's right and it's
very
similar and similar to it. Yes it's similar except that their problem is different
and quite obviously Mine's a graphic one on there's a speech and
movement but their means it was a very different.
My suppose only means of autumn similar you know
to communicate.
An abstract idea to make it palatable and understandable to a
reader part to a viewer.
How do you actually where do you start from a sitting and
somebody posing in front of you
or rational well since most of my work is the theater. Although I do quite a bit
of motion pictures things you know and the United oddest.
But I might say other things that I've been more or
less identified with and I've been with for so long I go out of town catch the show
a week or two before it comes into New York. And make my drawings in the theater.
Another thing and I've learned across the as to draw in the dock.
I practiced for years in drawing and subways in my pocket. You know with this
tiny
pencil and making sketches of people sitting opposite me. And
then after each stop when they would get out I would look at these and of course a lot of them
where made no sense of any kind accept to me. I could learn to
read them after a while and I can do that now.
I mean that the actual drawing you do in the theater does not resemble very close no one that
you do know except that certain things about it. That I I can
do a certain little smile are looking and I
are. And I
don't because my everyone's memory for these things
is
as precious as it's terribly difficult to
maintain and the little notes that I make help me.
I mean I can read them later.
Good day. B.C. so you don't really do the drawing that you take down the information.
Yes and if I'm stuck up if I feel that it's a difficult subject and I'm not going
to get it then I will go back stage and make
a detailed drawing of them usually in quite
a realistic drawing and
then. Show that I know exactly what they look like and then
later I translated into my own.
Style
foam do things can you can you do enough thirty realistic drawings.
Oh yeah absolutely yes yes people have a comically realistic. Yes that
was my training for many many I see. What makes the subject more difficult is there
any predictable rule on this.
No no no rules.
Sometimes I have like a thousand drawings or someone before I get them.
Another Time to head at the first
time. And usually the best ones are
the ones that are
spontaneous because they have a Spock. The others are studied
and become but staff never happy with them
but I don't know why certain problems I suppose something I
ate got for down.
Who's been your favorite subject since his film.
Well
both You're allowed to
do. And it's a kind of a mutual
admiration society with Boulder he. Copies my drawings he tells
me that he has my drawings in a studio
and whenever I do a drawing
of he try to imitate the actual
movement because he feels it's so much him that then he's living up
to your prediction that
he he really takes fire at these things and tries to
imitate these impossible movements of mine that I
rather use in my drawing.
But of course chaplain. I don't know that I have any favorites really outside
of the most
modern actor as. Difficult to distinguish the
very few that have
become symbols. I don't know what happens they seem to
change with
each role have the great personalities gone you think this this.
Well I know this sounds corny but. It seems that I had anyway
I suppose I've always been saying this but.
In my own field
as I find that people are
becoming to look alike more than they did
and everything is becoming standardized in some way and so not only
unloving and thought but also in the features as a
great love going out and it was
devastating to you for your own work because new very very you know because it presents
kind of interesting problems of course the other is easier and you can make more effective drawings.
I mean they're very I like
bland actors you know. The ones with the bulging eyes. And.
Thyroid conditions they Marla Robert Marley and Cheryl must tell an arsenal
Well this kind of actor. I love to draw them and I love
to watch them on the stage or
in pictures they're they're bigger than life somehow
they're explosive and wonderful but there's a kind of
already in the modern actor it seems to me and
I suppose it reflects life in some way so it's true tonight
sense I think the vitality of the or the individuality
is individuality seems to be of no importance
and less importance to the individual is this is nothing new with me certainly I
mean nothing for found that I've noticed it just happens to be true.
It's interesting that since it's been stated so often that it really in the flesh and blood of
the actors and actresses that this
is paradise not just on politics too you know they all look like
Roman bar. And you know that is an
average American man there is an average and he is as you're just
full This was not the case when you were beginning you know
no no there were.
Oh sharks of I mean and wonderful types they all
looked everything from a very suave chef educated and
man to something it looked like a bundle of laundry tied in a metal you know
and eyebrows weren't flocked and.
Mustaches
and ugliness and beauty and it
was more it was with a
modern And I suppose it's had a lot to do with the art of cosmetics
and also have just had a leveling out process you
know. There are
some books Atkinson wrote about you and I quote him here
and to him when he's referring to you organized life. In
saying nothing makes sense in point of fact the characters are reports of what he
sees to him the conventional portrait is the real distortion he sees life is
something wild and absurd in which the unexpected is the normal.
Do you think this is true you.
Well I don't know it's always difficult to recognise yourself. I suppose there's a certain amount
of truth in
it from Buxus point of view.
If you. I mean you have to get some something to base it from you
know. That I have
NO NO SUCH of friends who to me
are much screw where I had to Brook some probably shrilly but some
of my friends he would think that for a lonely Ben you know.
It's
a matter of a point of view on that I
think he's Is that your two most favorite words are hilarious and insane.
Do you these a lot. I probably do i probably do. He's always check me
on so I must. Why have you concentrated with the
other is this your main love.
Well it's a way of making a living to start off with I doubt whether I would be that interested if I
didn't get paid for
it I don't know what would have attracted me originally I mean I
I might just as well of been doing characters of
authors if there were a feel for that one on a
person that's what I really meant. So there's not too much open ing for this kind of thing is that the idea for in
politics and in that you weren't an either
or isn't because and you see doesn't I draw a big line between what
I'm doing
and cartooning on political drawings they
want cartoons. That's not enough
to comment on a
man. In line. It has to have
a joke. Our point of view that has a literary point of
view
and on South America is a different problem and completely it's accepted
from and it's a popular
ought to remember arriving in
Rio down there a couple years ago had some
exhibitions in South America
and on my own arrival I came in on the
same ship with Joan Crawford who was down there promoting Pepsi
Cola and the publicity on
the day of our arrival. I think that I was given more space than Miss Crawford.
This is absolutely impossible anywhere in this country and then.
They magazine by the name of Cruzeiro which is the equivalent of Life
magazine in South
America had a luncheon for me in which they invited all the
caricaturist and these dollars flowing in from US Addison
Montevideo and long distances never about two hundred fifty of them at
this luncheon. I was tremendously impressed
and
flattered at this reception because I didn't know this existed anywhere in the world
I don't suppose it does with the exception of South America where it's an accepted.
Phone is not in this
really dead. Form of their culture
in some way
it's this doesn't exactly Iraq in Europe is as much
then a little more in Europe than here in
French a little bit of Germany of course to a great extent. Russia
has had rather. In
the early twenty's wonderful caricaturist there.
And now it's they're copying a punch in the New Yorker.
Most of these publications actually are copying the New Yorker. They use to copy some posters almost a
German
publication that had some first rate caricaturist on it. George gross and go buy
a song Pass
can and Tony and high and wonderful man.
But in recent years as a yacht in Germany is hardly worth even considering
it's produced nothing is at least to my knowledge a has any.
Real spark. Have you traveled throughout Europe or not in America have you thought of
doing drawings of their theater and their movies
and I did drawing some theatre while I was down
there in Brazil and ago I
and.
Is there a great difference in nationality in the personalities and the visual aspects
of stall Yes Yes They're wonderful to
draw you know wonderful to draw
on but they have one of the most
Latins have as you well know I mean the kind of a.
Less inhibited than the Anglo-Saxon and it shows in their face there and
then their movements their spring here and their exaggerated and all of their
movements and
expressions and it's easier and more fun to capture this kind
of thing you're very interested in movement aren't you even though it yes
avick Yes it's amazing how much movement you get into your
drawings very much so yes I don't necessarily mean jumping or
running but I mean sitting in a chair the way somebody holds a cigarette
are the movement of the body or a finger.
That's also as you can get a sense of fun and action out of
it how you've been speaking about a greater
standardization on the part of actors and. Actress's How do you feel about the plays that
are being produced now versus the ones fifteen twenty twenty years ago.
Well I think most of the plays were fifteen twenty twenty years ago are not worth reviving
really with the exception I mean there were great works of art a rare one everyone expects everything to be
a
great work of art as is asking too much of the artist.
If we
have two good players a year. I think that's about top
of the course and it always has
been what is the satisfaction you get out of your work. What
do you enjoy about it most well advanced in the money.
I do you're going to say that.
Well I like to be busy I like to work.
I don't I'm not a vacation man I'm not an awful lot of man I don't
go in for any of these things and I get my fun out of
working all reading. I enjoy it.
Do you think you will continue with theatrical personalities I mean this is where you are this is
where you'll stay.
I think so I have no other plans of any kind and I never had plans to do that
you know I suppose if nobody phoned me and asked me to do a drawing of somebody
I would do something
else you know but I don't see how you can in my particular case
at any rate I can't divorce her from the economics of staying alive.
Well that's very wise I hope
you don't we like you around. I want to thank
you very much for this interview with tears. Well it's been a pleasure.
You have been listening to Patricia Marx interviews join us again next Friday at five
when once again we bring you. Patricia Marx interviews.