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W N Y C three sends international interview produced with the cooperation of the Overseas Press Club of America this is a series of informal and rehearsed interviews on problems and issues of international interest to our panel of newsman and our special guest moderator for this series is Seymour in Siegel here now is Mr Siegel. How do you do ladies and gentlemen and welcome to international interview we're delighted to have as our guest on this edition of the national interview the permanent representative of the Pakistan to the United Nations is actually ambassador. Shockey Mr Mesereau welcomed in the national and we thank you to question the ambassador others in the status panel of news men who are now introduce themselves. I'm Ted Morello United Nations correspondent for the Pakistan times. I know word all the farmer better of this is in the center of national and China Press in Shanghai. Given its United Nations correspondent for the shape of Broadcasting Corporation thank you for work the first question for Mr Morale And Mr Ambassador is a sort of a warm up question here we are now nearing the end of the of the twenty third general assembly session. Most of us correspondence I've been hearing in the delegates alone from one diplomat or another that this is probably go down as one of the most unproductive sessions in the twenty three years of United Nations history in the first place I would ask you if you would agree with that in a second I would like to know if this is not so and confining yourself entirely to those measures which have been taken which stand some reasonable chance of implementation what would you consider to be the areas in which the twenty third session is made the greatest progress the greatest contribution. I would not certainly call this spectacular session but at the same time I do not think it has been unproductive or not used with a. Considerable amount of time has been spent on considering the issues of design them and in particular what action could be taken by the General Assembly to implement the conclusions and recommendations of the conference of non-nuclear weapon states which was held in September in Geneva you would recall that this conference. Was convened in order to enable the non-nuclear weapon states to take stock of the situation that would arise from the conclusion of the Nonproliferation Treaty in particular if there was no universal that had in store the Nonproliferation Treaty how would the security of non-nuclear weapons states be insured against the possible the merge and surface six or seven nuclear weapon power which was not prepared to renounce nuclear weapons. If you ponder over this question it goes to the heart of the system of collective security and an issue of this gravity has perhaps never been considered before by the United Nations the conference was not able to reach agreement in regard to the substance of the guarantee system and should be evolved but nevertheless considerable discussion took place and one of the tasks of the presentation will be to assure the continuities of the work of the conference of non-nuclear weapon states and we would hope to reach positive results the prospects are quite encouraging. Of course we are considering how best to implement the decisions of the conference in regard to a more widespread sharing of the benefits of nuclear energy. So therefore. Eve only this particular subject. One would readily agree that this session has been a very useful one it has clarified the issues and enabled us to see the prospects of the great goals of collective security there's another subject that I would like to mention and that is there Pakistan had the honor of presenting it as a delusion on behalf of the nations. To make arrangements for the. Evolution of an international development strategy so that the one nine hundred seventy S. could be proclaimed as the second decade and so that targets and goals could be said for the poor countries of the world to strive by their own efforts and through international cooperation particularly assistance from the richer countries of the world too. Make progress towards raising their standard of living and this will be a global effort in which all the organizations of the U.N. system will cooperate to formulate a realistic international development strategy and we think. This proprietary which is being undertaken to make an all out attack on a global basis against the problems of poverty and lack of development will be considered to be a landmark in the. Efforts of the United Nations to achieve the goals of the charter in the field of economic cooperation. Question for most of all this NAM bastard off your course the measure with our student on rest here I understand you also have student unrest in Pakistan do you have an idea of. What's back of all that in your country and though in this country. I should think that the problem of the students so I should say the student under the world of the. Manifestations not only in countries like Pakistan today but they have been great student disorders in the United States in France in Italy and practically all over the world first of all this is a very troubled generation. One cannot be young people in the universities and colleges for even a few moments without realizing that they feel that the older generation has failed that. We have had too great work force and. This security of the world from a third wall. Then perm on your Cleo is not a short and therefore young people have lost respect and genuine respect for their elders secondly with the development of technology and the rise of industrialization in many parts of the world particularly in traditional societies the family which was considered to be the human or the social unit is in the process of dismemberment the emphasis is on the individual and here the philosophies of the West are having a powerful impact and I might even say a somewhat disintegrating impact on the traditional societies and therefore if you consider the general historical situation. And the fact that the example of students tating for more and more liberties and a greater voice in setting administratively educational policies at the. Traditional societies cannot be sheltered from the impact of these radical movements and developments and therefore these students in Pakistan are also a part of this world where a. Question from Mr Going into us so we have been reading. Recently the big give us a read about the core of your relationship between Pakistan and China would you care to tell us about this relationship but do list since China has indicated a willingness now too. Talk with the new administration could you tell us how this relationship developed in the what do you expect. To come out of it. You are talking about now relations what we. Like is done in China not only in the north and then And then of course we have recently some reports about the changes changing future visit with the new government in Washington. Well it is quite true that relations between Pakistan and China have been very friendly and most got deal. From the very beginning even when Pakistan was allied to the United States in the military back such as the Southeast Asia collective defense treaty called the Sea top and the Chinese. Have been anxious to cultivate good relations with Pakistan as with all countries. They proposed in one thousand fifty four that we should enter into an agreement with them to conduct our mutual relations international relations on the basis of what they called the five principles of peaceful coexistence that is nonaggression noninterference in internal affairs respect for political independence and territorial integrity of states equality and their place considerable emphasis on equality between states and mutual benefit. Now or at the time of our affiliate with the SEATO prevented us from. Entering into a declaration for the observance of these five principles. About. With the changes that have taken place in the world since that time since nine hundred thirty four and been particularly the shifts in the policy of the global powers but we've found it to our national interest to agree to coexistence with China which is our neighbor and one of the major powers of Asia. On the basis of these five principles the secret of good relations between Pakistan is and China. Is this scrupulous. Of communist China to the observance of these principles. And we for our part had no difficulty in a knowledge in the People's Republic of China was a great power and since our interests are not intact on a stick and they are interested in consolidating their. Progress and the gains that they have achieved and in particular in. Attaining their rightful place in the life of the international community we found there was no conflict of interest and that it would be conducive to international peace if China. Unable to emerge from an imposed isolation. Understand that Pakistan is still allowed through the worst through the center. Would do the center. Do the same thing. Well Pakistan is not allied to the west in Centaur because Spike is the Centaur is a regional enjoyment and the United States is not a member of the Centaur though it does support the objectives of this alliance but for the last few years the regional powers namely Turkey Iran and Pakistan have deemphasized the military aspects of this alliance and are doing their best to highlight or to give emphasis to its economic possibilities and furthermore with the. Continuing. Cant in the relations between the United States and the Soviet Union and the fact that the Soviet Union did hears through the principles of peaceful coexistence we think that the military aims of the center will have been overtaken by events and therefore there is no need to emphasize sent or. Military of that So this is not an alliance it's not an alliance with the West it's primarily a regional living between Pakistan and Iran in Turkey thank you questionable most were all Mr Ambassador as you know there's been some consternation among the big three Western powers. At the United Nations concerning the move to. South Africa from specifically from the UN Conference on Trade and Development and this is part of a continuing trend apparently to have Alstad from various other organs of the United Nations. In view of the. The stand that many of the supporters of this action have taken on the admission of people's China Mainland China. How does one square the attempt to to get rid of after South Africa with the principle of universality of membership in the United Nations. The United Nations is meant to be a universal log organization open to all peace loving States. Which are able and willing to fulfill the purposes and principles of the charter it is by that test that you have to judge. The qualifications of member states for admission Diarmaid point out to you that in regard to the People's Republic of China considerable considerable number of states maintain that it is not a question of admission of in your state because China is already a member it's a question of the representation of a government and therefore it's a matter of credentials and consequently that it is a procedural question however I shall not go into this matter but the very fact that the People's Republic of China has made a statement that it is willing to regulate its relations with the rest of the world in particular the United States on the basis of the five principles of existence that is nonaggression noninterference in internal affairs a respect for political independence and territorial integrity of states these are the principles which lie at the heart of the charter of the united nations and peoples China has given fresh evidence of its willingness to conduct its relations with the international community on this basis and therefore it follows that the People's Republic of China is should be seated in the organization. It is able and willing to fulfill all the obligations that devolve on a member state under the charter. Now. You can examine for yourself whether South Africa. Has fulfilled or is about is prepared to continue to fulfill its obligations on the charter. The question of. Its violation. For twenty years of scores of United Nations resolutions. One of the purposes of the charter is self-determination of peoples and respect for justice and the principles of international law. And very and also the objective of the international trusteeship system of leading non-self governing peoples to independence for self-government South Africa has gone in the reverse direction it has defied the United Nations decision to terminate the mandate of a South West Africa it is practicing a system of apartheid segregation of races and treating the coloreds in South Africa and the negroes. With. The worst. Kind of discrimination ever practiced in history. And it is seeking to extend the apartheid system to Southwest Africa which it has no right to do. It has been condemned several times by the United Nations General Assembly and the Security Council for grave violations of human rights which constituted constitute a threat to peace in the southern part of Africa and therefore since South Africa has deliberately and persistently violated the purposes and principles of the charter the question arises. Should South Africa be permitted to enjoy the benefits of membership of the UN. Therefore we see no contradiction the whole the two issues stand on the same central principle willingness to respect the principles of the charter of the People's Republic of China has proclaimed distribute readiness and what is more has given practical proof of its dedication to the purposes of charter you would recall that the Geneva Agreements of one hundred fifty four and the nine hundred sixty two agreement on layoffs. Were concluded with the participation of China. And the People's Republic of China also participated in the historic Asian first Asian African conference at Bandung in Indonesia and one hundred fifty five. And formally adhere to the principles of the charter which were properly named in the declaration. So therefore I think that while one is one is entitled to be there stored all its lawful rights in the United Nations immediately that is the People's Republic of China we do not think that South Africa has fulfilled its chart obligations. Question from installment this damn bastard I read the thinking review another Chinese Communist publications. And I get my understanding is that the People's Republic of China have a supreme contempt for the United Nations I gather you don't agree with that interpretation of the publications that's my interpretation it's supreme contempt for the United Nations. No sir I do not agree with you of course the spokesman of the government of the People's Republic of China have at times very strongly attacked and denounced the United Nations but they have done so because they think the United Nations is not acting up to its own principles and is. Unjustly denying the restoration of lawful rights to the People's Republic of China and that it is following double standards in regard to China. On the basis of our. Exchanges with the People's Republic of China with a number of years old we are quite convinced and the People's Republic of China would participate in the United Nations provided that. The two China tyranny all of what is called. A seat for mainland China and with. A seat also for the representatives of general Chiang Kai shek this to China. Should be abandoned then and Communist China is not prepared to compromise with this so-called theory it believes there is only one China and it is the sole representative of China. All the attacks on the United Nations. From China are the result of the. Continued exclusion of China from the United Nations and the. Attempts or that have been made in some quarters to promote what is called in to China solution. Question for Mr Winters So you said a little earlier that this isn't a treaty which includes Pakistan India Iran is not practical purposes regional nonmilitary agreement would this review be held also by the other partners sent to. Iran and also the associate member of the the United States or it is Pakistan's view if other members of the fact that do they have relations or developing relations with China should just be foolish to say because we reported that she is trying to develop relations with China is it true First let me first of all tell you would that the question of Centaur and relations between Pakistan and Iran then tech you have nothing to do with China. The two questions are not related to told well when they said that Centaur is not a military alliance I what I meant to say was that it is not. Vest on. Military alliance. Or originally did three countries Pakistani done in Turkey conceived the idea of cooperation for the purposes of common defense and as I've said with the progress of the date on the military this military aspect of the Centaur has receded into the background. And for the last few years Centaur has been almost exclusively concerned with promoting regional cooperation in the economic field between the three countries of and it has the support of the United States and the United Kingdom. Was. Not on the program and have to bring this to learn and I've been taking a great many notions we went to war and you told us that. You don't call this particular session of the United Nations particularly spectacular. But at the same time you feel of it's been a very useful session. So you tell us that time has been spent on disarmament you described the Geneva conference as being helpful in the consideration of the Nonproliferation Treaty as a matter of fact you said this goes to the heart of collective security you said that there was no agreement on any guarantee system but you hope to sure the continuity of the conference and also how to implement the various proposals that have come forth as far as your concern you feel because In Session's clarified the issues you tell us that Pakistan had presented a resolution to arrange for and then left strategy against poverty to set targets you said to a raising standards as modified you feel that this will be a very important limb walk to achieve economic progress with regard to the student of the question of student unrest you tell us that this was a world away that was taking place of France and Italy in the United States as well as in Pakistan and you described this as being a troubled generation who feel that the older generation has failed as malefactor told us of young people who'd lost their respect for their elders. The development of technology you said and. The family unit is being. Dismembered more and more liberties are being looked for by young people and you feel that traditional societies cannot be sheltered from this world away. With regard to the relationship between China and Pakistan that you feel these women very very cordial even when you were a member of C. tell you tell us the Chinese were anxious to maintain good relations lodging on the basis of their five points of non-aggression on a different Tel toil integrity and mutual equality benefit with changes in the world you find it in your own national interest to co-exist at Heron's of China to the observance of the principles. Of these five principles that you mentioned is really the secret you feel of your relationship with China. You tell us a Pakistan is not allied to the west because of your membership and sent out the US you pointed out is not a member as a matter of fact you indicated the military aspects of that alliance have been deemphasized. The time between the United States and the Soviet Union and you indicated is the reason why there's really no need for a military sento And that's until really is purely a regional economic sort of an agreement. With regard to China's membership only you when you tell us that the United Nations is meant to be a universal organization and you judge the qualifications of states on the basis of their willingness to comply with the charter mainland China in your view has offered evidence of conducting in there some relations on the basis of the obligations of the United Nations whereas South Africa in your view was violated UN resolutions for twenty years that self-determination has been four hundred that practice is apartheid and as far as you're concerned these are two diametrically opposite situations you do not agree that China has a supreme contempt for the United Nations spokesmen The criticized the U.N. because of follows the double standard you are convinced that China would participate in the United Nations provided the two China theory could be abandon this Mr Ambassador and somebody playing the kit which will I think it indicates and everybody fall in fabby what I said thank you very much Mr Ambassador I thank also the distinguished members of AA and wish me well again next week. If you would buy C.D.'s presented international interview produced in cooperation with the Overseas Press Club of America our moderator for this series EE Seymour M. Siegel and his guest for this program was Ambassador Crocker Shockey permanent representative of Pakistan to the United Nations. Our panel of newsman included Ted Morello U.N. correspondent of the Pakistan times. Judge Norwood all been formally Far East editor of Business International. And Spirit in Greek since UN correspondent with the Cyprus Broadcasting Corporation. Be with us again next week at this time for another international interview this program was produced by Sylvia tater and directed by John.