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Welcome to another edition of black man in America presented by your city station in cooperation with the city's commission on human rights and these programs are broadcast Tuesday afternoons at five O W N Y C fam ninety three point nine mega cycles and Tuesday evenings of nine W N Y C eight hundred thirty killer cycles here now to tell you more about this important series is our moderator Good evening this is what you make both and I'm here to bring you another in a series the black man in America devoted the title state to examining the history and life of Afro Americans and the contributions they have made and are making to the material cultural and spiritual wealth of this country this includes all of living not simply the civil rights issues we see in the headlines. Tonight's guest is our eye Blaustein coeditor with Roger our walk of the recently published book Man against poverty World War three by Random House this is a collection of writing and documents covering all aspects of poverty by experts in the field of sociology economics and. The roster of contributors including J W Albright Michael Harrington Paul Goodman Robert Coles Kenneth Clarke Paul Jacobs ASCO Lois Martin Luther King Jr and many more Mr Blaustein was formally the director of interagency coordination and Intergovernmental Affairs for the Northeast region of the United States Office of Economic Opportunity he has been Program Executive of the Foreign Policy Association and associate editor of war and peace report a journal of international affairs. He worked in my study of defacto segregation in northern schools where U.S. Office of Education on the executive board of the United Nations Association New York for the past three years he is presently serving as vice chairman his most recent project is as director of economic development for a new foundation capital formation which invest in the ghetto industry certainly. The title of the book strikes you when you have a title such as man against poverty World War three This is an interesting title What do you mean by men against poverty World War three. Well. The next war is either going to be a. War against people of we've noticed. What happened in South Vietnam when when a small underdeveloped country decides to have a war of national liberation. It's a question of whether we're going to fight the kind of wars in the future in the undeveloped world by acting as the world's policeman by going in with brutal and brutalizing repressive forces or whether we're going to understand the flows of history and. Get involved in the economic development and allow countries to work out their own problems you say in your book that the developing nations and the United States both have. Poverty but different kinds or they do have one thing in common that is that they are both waiting for the Cold War to End How has the cold war affected the fight against poverty here in this country and abroad well for this year nine hundred sixty eight the world has spent about one hundred sixty billion dollars in arms. And that's sons they're waiting for the Cold War to end because the money that's going into the arms race and I must say this hundred sixty billion is being spent at a time when one for example the United States has in its nuclear stockpile twenty eight thousand pounds of T.N.T. T.N.T. for every man woman and child on earth and we have all the world has less than one pound of food for each man woman and child in the cupboard and that's getting worse what I mean is that the that in a sense that the book although there's a stated purpose in a real purpose for doing anything the stated purpose is the problems of poverty all case studies interpretations and solutions but in retrospect as I look back to the real problem is one of almost total. Insanity and madness and schizophrenia on the part of our leaders who voice rhetoric in one area talking about the help that we have to give to the third world in our own underdeveloped and yet they continue to pursue this absurd course of spiraling arms races and dumping billions of dollars into obsolete weapons you know I'm doing they're not really serious I think President Johnson has stated that we've got ten times overkill in our atomic supply really a country version of what the overkill varies anywhere from eight hundred to twelve hundred to one not ten times it's not tenderloins what we supposedly have a superiority over the Russians ten times but in terms of our total force in relation to destructive a day when the experts differ anywhere from eight hundred to twelve hundred to one you know you can only kill a person once that's an amazing thing or of a hundred to twelve hundred overkill in our stockpile of destructive force but do we have anything in our force that is productive not destructive anymore well in terms of weapons or in terms of in terms of atomic supplying. Well to a very small degree the nuclear powered desalinization plants but when one thinks in terms of the fact that we're the two major agencies yet or that are involved one is the Defense Department and the other is the Arms Control Disarmament Agency the arms control disarmament agency which was started by President Kennedy after he made the the reign of terror speech either minimal abolish the bomb or the bomb abolish man if one looks at the difference we as Americans usually are as pragmatists say we put our money where our mouths are yet now the Defense Department gets eighty two billion dollars And that goes through in forty eight hours the arms control disarmament agency the one federal agency that has a major responsibility for developing positive and productive plans for use of our nuclear arsenal. Or nuclear power and for controlling arms in the arms race that gets one thirty third of one percent of what the Defense Department gets and only gets fifty million dollars They've been parsed out every two years and you have to fight for ten weeks in Congress to get this bill so in terms of putting our money where our melds are we talk of peace but but we're certainly not giving the money in the right direction. So yes I mean one simple relationship president elect Nixon was over the United Nations last week and he said United States is going to continually give its great support to the international institutions responsible for making world peace well of United States continues to give the kind of support it's given to the United Nations it will do a good job wrecking it and in terms of dollar and cents you have a situation there the U.N. is referred to by statesmen politician when they well as mankind's drawing him but in fact we give less than one half to the regular U.N. budget what we spend for the Department of Sanitation the city of New York annually and the U.N. is responsible for you know world peace and the same thing is true of the fight against poverty is it is not a war to all it's not a war it's a mere pittance the war against poverty for example a one cent out of the average taxpayers dollar goes to the word on poverty I understand. Revenue haven't Athey during the Poor People's Campaign stated that fifty five dollars per person per year is spent on the war against poverty as against the eighty two billion that you what I did for defense and that fifty five dollars includes almost all services not just jobs of economic opportunity what are the prospects for Congress this year is there any hope for a change in the spiral. The prospects for Congress unfortunately I cannot be very sanguine I think the prospects in Congress are very but to a great extent it depends upon the initiative taken by the by the president elect for the most part I would say that you know I had we to depend upon Congress to initiate important legislation we could pack our bags as a country just forget it well it does that mean that we don't we have to look to the next an event we have to look the next administration and you know in reality in the last thirty years the only there are only four pieces of key. Porton legislation that has been initiated by Congress itself that includes in the care and Walters act and by America Act. The Taft Hartly but they have no never taken the initiative progressive legislation now in terms of what to expect for poverty programs and dealing with the realities of urban areas and particularly in New York you're concerned with the urban problems Congress basically rural conservative people talk about the fact that there are but them across is a Democratic controlled Congress and the public and PRESIDENT Well that Democratic controlled Congress is in reality a northern Republican Southern conservative coalition but has that Congress come about because of the fact that the farmer really needed the nation's help that back in the thirty's you know it's been and they have forged of developed that help into our real power right not only that the in addition to the one man one vote on the Supreme Court decision has really not been implemented yet and you don't have you know most people can say that it's. Something like sixty eight seventy percent of people live in cities but yet our rep in the cities represent a representation in Congress is less than fifty percent sure. That's what the case is all about you know and it was one and yet it hadn't been implemented it hasn't been implemented and all the the there are for it depending upon what's going to come out of Congress Congress is of a fragmented legislative body and the control rests we were basically with four people or four key provisions the chairman of Appropriations Committee in the Senate and the Senate Armed Services Committee and the House the chairman of Appropriations in the in the House Armed Services Committee well and getting away from Congress what do you see coming from President elect Nixon. Well it's not in the way of leadership you know I'm not very sanguine on. What to expect from President elect next and either I mean if he Everyone knows that campaigns usually produce a lot of hot air and rhetoric and Law and Order Law and Order. You know can only suggest that that if the if the president elect thinks that the American society which is the most powerful in history is going to continue on a on a basis of just supporting a particular order and law that that history has taught us particularly the Greco roman civilization is said to of fallen because it preferred order to justice why can't we turn that phrase around and make it a positive force for meaningful change through the enforcement of all the laws and not just some well I think it's a Super Bowl idea and we certainly could because there are plenty of laws on the books but you finally you know the president elect when he spoke in South Carolina last year during the campaign and later when he spoke to Southern delegates and joy at the Republican convention in Miami Beach the private session that he gave the Southern delegates he could measure them self to saying that he would not enforce all the civil rights act of the of the for the for school integration and I think in fan of the candidate the other candidate Mr Humphrey also laid on the Law and Order thing to run his campaign I think that that that this is a campaign theme of all major candidates you know I think it's terribly unfortunate but maybe can be turned into positive meaning by demanding now enforcement of the law for example the executive water one hundred forty two that provides the cancellation of government contracts with contractors who is going to Torrey in their hiring practice and we know many contractors who is going to run and yet there's never been one government contract canceled under that executive order maybe. If we can get that executive order implemented and enforced and maybe get some of the code enforcement throughout this country and some of the human rights laws and for certainly I'm very much concerned about that we might be able to turn it into a positive force but do you see anything else though in the in the way of leadership from Nixon or from those he's named as cabinet members toward escalating this war against poverty it's very difficult to see anything in the way of leadership Bob Very little is known of. His cabinet members with the exception perhaps of Governor Romney of who's head of Housing and Urban Development but the other is a relative unknowns I mean. The attorney general I mean if someone's going to start a fourth exam the civil rights laws he turned a general who was who is firmer own city Mr Mitchell I have yet to hear him say one word sounds like he's in favor of supporting any of these laws in your book Mr Blaustein. Quote or Senator Fulbright. Article in that book does state a position that the Great Society is a sick society can you explain that well I you know you already did well in a sense I would say that you know it's a curious period Ochs that as. Conditions become worse you know our cities. As we view Urban Urban Decay seems that our report reports get better by for example the current commission report and the walk a report coming out of Chicago I know there are excellent reports The Worse Things Get the year the better the reports get but I think the you know the the sickness you're talking about is the fact that nothing happens after these reports get issued by first of the current commission report Yes Congressman Rosenthal of New York. Three weeks after the county commission report sent a memo out to all his fellow congressmen and said Well fellows here we've got it superbly poor it that recommends national goals let's sit down and drop some legislation who is willing to be stand up and be counted with an eye and supporting the legislation for housing education health etc Now only twenty eight congressmen responded favorably That's less than ten percent and there it was all laid out so I think in that sense we have. A certain sickness because the handwriting is on the wall the signs are there a sick society well for the behavior of Congress during the passage of the right bill when I thought that was just you know some hysterical joke a lot of children are dying of red but they acted in a completely unconventional way you know I called mind Dr William Pollard from the home Oak Ridge in Tennessee the Atomic Energy Commission there and I think he's the director there has been has stated many times that we are on a disaster cause worldwide as far as production of goods is concerned that our country the United States has vast resources but many other countries do not I had always thought that the countries in South American countries in Africa had great resources available do you have any comment on this do you have any I understand from Mr Pollard that by one thousand nine hundred. Five or nine hundred eighty they won't be any more fertile soil left in South America in most countries and well in terms of the natural resources some of the countries were quite rich but major Western European and American corporations went in there and they did what's commonly called creaming they took the good stuff off the top and they are used it to a great extent they profit all that came out of that did not go to the people in those countries and when you are one of the corporations the other problem is sure by nine hundred seventy five were on those what you know of the population or population food collection that is Lord Snow said in a speech in Fulton Missouri about three months ago that by nine hundred seventy five we and Western civilized supposedly societies are going to be sitting home in front of the tube looking out and watching chunks of countries and countries and some cutlets literally starving and we can flip from one station to the other and just see different kinds of starvation in this collision course where hell bent on it the population explosion together with food and so forth why there are only four countries in the world that have food surpasses Now the rest of the world the food the population is just far outstripping the food so these are amazing facts which I think most people do not know Dr Pollack brought to my attention but certainly I think it's important to be brought to the attention of many more people something can be done they have they must be something that we can do to correct the condition there's plenty that can be done you are taken as a you know as I said initially they the military industrial. Complex Hustle is the greatest I feel in this country I'm right now you say what are the prospects for Congress of war in Vietnam is going to be over congressman and the president have said we cannot poor money into domestic programs to let war is over it's been a drain on both young lads and on our treasure now is thirty billion dollars going into that now comes let's say is humanly and hopefully the war is ended next year what's going to happen to that thirty billion dollars is going to go into education food health I got it severely I think right now that every indication of Senator Richard Russell who is chair of the Appropriations Committee and Senator Stennis who's head of armed service preparedness they want to take that money and dump it into this new anti-ballistic missile we're talking with often I Blaustein coeditor of man against poverty World War three from Random House man against poverty World War three a reader on the world's most crucial issues and a good buy author I Blaustein and Roger are look. Mr blasting What proposals have been recommended by Jews to your book contributors like Kenneth Clarke Paul Jacobs Thomas Pynchon and so on so forth so many of them people who are involved in this battle against poverty What proposals have they recommended to eliminate the cause of the poverty in this country well. I think in general you know each one of these men is an expert in their field and they have their own interpretations and priorities and needs I think if one were to state collectively. You know the thing is that with Ali one of the one of the tragedies I think is that no one fully recognized there was a good deal of criticism of the war on poverty in that on it when it got stuck. In the initial stages in the administrative and planning stage there was no follow through with the word Vietnam draining the resources that would have come in the second stage and I think what they're all recommending and what what's becoming apparent is that the federal government just has to have a you know you can talk about a variety of programs and all kinds of fields but they cost money and everyone has been unwilling to put a price tag on these programs take for example one small comment to the president elect not only to harp on him during the during the campaign he said that he would talk to three of four audiences in a day one of the key standard before he closed before he closed the speech and he said Ladies and gentlemen why do you know how much it cost to keep youngster in the Job Corps and the audience would say no and he said Well I'll tell you it cost ten thousand dollars a year and gasp from the audience through then he'd say well it only cost three thousand dollars to see youngster from Harvard and I promise you that I'm going to eliminate those programs now what he didn't say is that it's costing eleven thousand two hundred dollars to keep a youngster in a rice paddy in Vietnam or six thousand dollars to keep the youngster in the detention home and it's just a question of priorities which is more important the same ten thousand that would be spent on the war against poverty is being spent in other ways right right they're just going to have to you can't avoid it right right I see here Bob reward is among the conservatives lady Jackson to many I heard her speak in Augusta Georgia and she is one Catholic who opposes the pope and his recent and cyclical on birth control and has come out publicly in that opposition do you find that she has the answer to this population explosion issue on the right track Well I don't want to get involved in a religious controversy I personally am not hung up on the the religious aspect of it and I I sir. Well you see from the kind of work that's being done in behind for example in China I mean China is beginning to solve her problem because they're practicing birth control and obviously from the rebellion the pope has is on his hands when people blow the bishop level in Latin America that they're well cognizant of the fact that but the birth is far outstripping the food and there just has to be some attention paid in the is more and more becoming involved in birth control but obviously that's so that is one of the key answers we talk about violence an awful lot I understand that Bob Hope out in Vietnam right now is saying that he really wanted to stay in the United States this Christmas rather than to make the trip he usually makes but there's too much violence in this country and so he left and went to Viet Nam and makes a joke of it but certainly violence has played a large part in the history of the world what do you see as the the future with reference to violence in this country and in the world well I must say for the first comment I think Bob Bob Hope is a very funny guy when it comes to stand up comics and pitter patter but when he goes over to Vietnam somehow he loses his senses and starts making jokes about ridiculous things like last year when he was over there he called Vietnam is the best urban renewal program yeah yeah I heard I mean obviously a lot of people are getting killed by those kind of on the off the things and it's not it's hardly a joke however yes I think there has been a certain amount of violence I I think all. If you want to look at violence so I think he's missed directed in the kind of where the violence comes from this is my violence all around him right now I mean it's an interesting thing I think that has to do with our traditional assumptions vote out what violence or now one of the word is good that you look at war as being. Heroic and that the Arctic and all that well you know this is just absurd. In particular with regard to domestic violence I work with a woman who is in our office who was born and bred in Harlem and she has she has lost all her teeth every one of them for want of decent dental care and now we if I took my fest and punched her and knocked her teeth out I mean we look at that as a violent just her to her mind though she looks the fact that she lost her teeth another light just a violent just a violent thing and certain segments of our country have had to live with this kind of violence all their lives and I you know I don't want to get too involved in the in the ocean Hill you know dispute but quite simply issue involved there is the mothers of those children all said finally they put their foot down so we have put been pushed so far and no more and violence in terms of Vieja Kading our children not getting giving them the proper leaning level and the proper input are not going to exist in our community all anymore we've been felt I think we have seen in your book and orally proposals made. A great deal of thought on the part of all these persons who have given of their time and their energies to the problem of poverty but there hasn't been any implementation you're saying is all that bleak really I think is one there has been any implicit implementation and two we haven't been serious in terms of pumping the kind of money in that are not. You know I think this ties in with the question of the question of violence too that people can be can be held down for so long they could be frustrated they can be promised and given all sorts of expectations that their expectations dashed six months later waiting for you know waiting for Congress to come through waiting for a war to end but I think that all of that people have to understand that there is legitimate the center in our country and there has to be legitimate the sons and to the answer to the question of law and order as it were on the street hoped jokes about there having been violence were going to be violence in this country that those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable so that there's got to be a moral outrage that has to be more a lot right that's what it amounts to opening up the public making them see what's going on and then getting them so concerned and so stirred up about the problem that they will make the legislative hours and the administrators and all the other do what has to be done then they will for they will just have to force them to I mean we have in terms of dealing with the problems with our urban problems and problems of race in the city we've been like a much like a a drunk who loses his keys and looks under the lamp post and he looks in the lamppost because the lights there but not the keys the keys are somewhere else now we're going to find the key to those that thing we had better own up to the fact as the current commission report pointed out that there has been systematic exploitation of certain segments of our community and it's ingrained and it's been a part of the establishment I've been called a negro first because of saying that very kind of thing well it's fine. I just read I read in the paper the other day where a writer in The New York Times magazine section called me a negro first and Milton glamazon like oh and I think frankly what happened is that we are seeing the problem that does exist and it's not a question of being. Negro firstly because I'm a Negro but rather being unable first because this is where the problem is and is that that fits in I think what you are saying but I think it's absolutely necessary or you know I just wonder were a sense of indignation outrage some of the things that I think for example last year when the Senate sub cork subcommittee went down to two Mississippi Louisiana So Senator Murphy who for three years we've been telling the Senate that there's starvation in this country and he got down there in the subcommittee held their hearings and he voted against all food stamp bills and anti-poverty and the CD A.G.M. the money for Mississippi voted to pay the farmers you know not on the rent that's right but then when he got down there he stood up we should my God there are poor people starving here I'm going to wire the president I mean you know if you can be had been trying to tell him that for a long time sadly and certain it's interesting to see that people of that sort are able to be so isolated from what's really going on you know we had been an isolationist country as far as foreign affairs were concerned and then we changed it became involved in what was going on around the world but that involvement seems to have been only for the benefit of business right and not for anything else Unfortunately most of our interest has been self-motivated in terms of profit and that's going to have that role will have to change otherwise it will be self destruction it's a different it's a different world it's a different ballgame as I very much. Mr blasting off I Blaustein coeditor with Roger our work of a book called Man against poverty World War three Certainly we all ought to read it we all find out what is going on in our world that is of concern to us because it's to our self-interest to understand the problem and then to devote ourselves to making change that is meaningful in this country and in the world. Thank you for being with us in a black man in America please be with us again next week we'll have another distinguished guest in our series until then this is Bill Bill saying good. We welcome your comments on these programmes send your cards and letters to black man in America W N Y C New York one hundred zero seven and join us again next Tuesday afternoon at five on W N.Y.C. F.M. or next Tuesday evening at nine on W. N.Y.C. black man in America is a feature presentation of your city station broadcast in cooperation with the New York City Commission on Human Rights.