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Alison Stewart: You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. We continue our series, Small Stakes, Big Opinions, with a discussion about pommes frites, chips, fried tatters, most commonly called French fries. They do seem to go with everything; burgers, barbecue, club sandwiches, even pizza. Celebrity Chef Bobby Flay emphasized their importance on his show The Best Thing I Ever Ate.

Chef Bobby Flay: I think there's definitely an art to frying things. When I think about fried food, I think about fried fish, fried shrimp, fried chicken, but the thing that I think about most is French fries. To me, the French fry itself is the pure essence of perfect fried food.

Alison Stewart: Restaurant critic Pete Wells recently wrote about where to find the best French fries in New York City as part of his New York Times newsletter, Where to Eat: New York City. New York Times' Pete Wells joins us in studio for the conversation. Nice to see you again.

Pete Wells: Oh, thank you. It's good to be back.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, we want to get you in on this conversation. Where do you go to get the best French fries? What do you think makes them so perfect? Do you like the way they season? Do you the size? Do you have a preferred dipping sauce? What's your favorite type of French fry? Crinkle cut, shoestring, waffle, curly fries, or maybe you just prefer a standard cut? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, Small Stakes, Big Opinions. You can call and join us on air. You can also text us at that number, 212-433-WNYC. Social media for us @AllOfItWNYC. Pete, what can you share about the origin of the French fry?

Pete Wells: The origin of the French fry, it's one of those things where anything that wasn't invented last week nobody has any idea where it came from. You start to look at it and it's not even clear that they're French. The Belgians will be very upset if I don't mention that there's a strong claim that that's where French fries come from. Then there's a whole competing French theory that they were sold on the Port Neuf in Paris, and the classic cut for fries is the Port Neuf cut. Who am I to get into these national rivalries? I will stay out.

Alison Stewart: Why do you think fries are such a great side as a part of a meal?

Pete Wells: Oh, gosh.

Alison Stewart: Why are they beloved?

Pete Wells: I want to say first that I think any fried potato in any shape, size, form, is exciting. Potato chips out of a bag I will accept. Maybe not if I'm paying $30 for my entree, but for a $10-sandwich, I will take a bag of chips. They're brilliant because you can eat them with a fork if you can control yourself, but you can also eat them with your fingers and nobody says anything. I think we all secretly or not so secretly really want to be eating with our fingers in public whenever it's appropriate. You've got that. Once you're eating with your fingers, then it is a very quick motion from fry to plate to mouth. You can start doing that over and over. If you cut out the fork, you get very efficient.

Alison Stewart: [laughs] As you were describing it, I was thinking there've been times in my life when I've eaten one fry at a time, and then there are the times when you get a cluster.

Pete Wells: I think it helps if they're really thin, if you want to do that.

Alison Stewart: That gets me into surface area issues. Maybe it's the surface area when I get in a cluster, so I'm having a different sensation in my mouth. I'm not sure.

Pete Wells: Definitely, definitely, definitely because every square millimeter of surface area is an opportunity for salt crystals to hold on. Part of what you're loving is the salt and some of that cluster effect. You've got the initial fries that hit your tongue, but then you've got some fries underneath the fries, and salt underneath the salt. I could just keep going.

Alison Stewart: Are you someone who can envision fries as a main, as being the meal?

Pete Wells: Boy, I have never ever thought of that before. Sure. Are you going to set me up with that?

Alison Stewart: That's not a set up. Just an opinion.

Pete Wells: I'll try that. If they're really good, I don't get tired of them. I'm so used to having something with the fries.

Alison Stewart: Fair. Let's talk to Carlos, calling in from Greenpoint. Hi, Carlos. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Carlos: Thanks for having me, firstly. I have a strong opinion, so strong that I'm trying not to curse because I know you don't allow that.

Pete Wells: They told me not to curse, and I'm trying really hard.

Carlos: We have the same problems. I think that McDonald's fries are obviously the gold standard, and it seems obvious to me because it just seems obvious. That being said, Ingalls Bar has really good fries, and so does Le Crocodile.

Alison Stewart: Ooh, I've had them at Le Crocodile. What makes Ingalls' special to you?

Carlos: They managed to walk this line of potatoey and “steak-free” and being really salty. Pete's been there before, and I was on the other side of the bar.

Pete Wells: Oh, yes. Wait, do you work there now?

Carlos: We had a nice time. What's that?

Pete Wells: Do you work there now?

Carlos: No. Unfortunately, I do not work there anymore.

Alison Stewart: Carlos, this is a layered call. Thank you for calling in from Greenpoint. I want to read something you wrote about fries. “We want fries that once you've eaten the first one, dominate your consciousness until they're gone. Fries so powerful, no amount of Ozempic will silence them. Fewer than 20 restaurants in New York put out fries like that.” What was your measure? What was your bar? What was your criteria to make it into this article as some of the best fries in New York?

Pete Wells: The ones that I wrote about were all fries that I remember pretty clearly and remember them as maybe better than other things that I ate. I've already said that fried potato will make me happy. There are fries that I've enjoyed all over the city, but these are the ones that I can almost just close my eyes and see them. That's where I went. I was also, for this, specifically looking for places that really put a lot of care into the fries, which can become very labor-intensive and take a lot of space. I wanted people to appreciate how much goes into a really, really good fry.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk about Balthazar in SoHo. As you described it, they're famous for their fries. Why are their fries so famous? What is it about the Balthazar fries that you suggest that they might be some of the best?

Pete Wells: Part of it is this two-stage cooking process that a lot of places that are really serious about their fries will do. You can get a good fry without doing that, but you do take it to another level, I think, you get an extra crispness. You start out with relatively cooler oil and give it almost a poaching in warm oil. Then you take the fries out, you let them rest, sometimes overnight, and then you fry them again in really hot oil. That's when they get really crisp. That first initial fry drives out a lot of the water, which allows the fry not to be soggy.

Alison Stewart: Oh, that's interesting.

Pete Wells: Then there's a triple-cooked, which-

Alison Stewart: Oh, hit me.

Pete Wells: -we can get into, but I barely understand it. The triple-cooked, the initial step would be boiled or steamed, and then fried twice after that with a resting period. One of the places I wrote about, when the fries are resting, puts them in the freezer. I don't quite understand what that does. The fries have to go somewhere, so I guess they go into the freezer.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Pete Wells. We are talking about the best fries in New York City. It's part of our Small Stakes, Big Opinion Series. Our phone lines are getting full. Let's talk to Elbert from Brooklyn. Hi, Elbert. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Elbert: Thank you for taking my call. One of the best places that I have recently went to was Brennan's in Brooklyn on Avenue U and Nostrand Avenue. It's been there since 1939, a little small shack, but my goodness, they make some of the best fries that I've ever tasted other than the one at Katz's Deli in lower Manhattan, which also has a very good fry. I'm starting to suspect that the thicker the potato, the nicer the fry, the better flavor you're going to get. Thank you.

Alison Stewart: That's a speech. Man had a speech. Let's talk to Jeff from West Milford. Hi, Jeff. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Jeff: Hey, how are you doing? I used to remember a place. There's a place down on the Lower East Side called Palm Fritz. Unfortunately, I think they were a victim of the explosion that they had down there, but they used to make Belgian fries. That was their specialty. They served them in a paper cone, and they had multiple sauces that you could get with it. They used to double fry their fries. That was the whole thing. You got to double fry the fries. You let them sit water overnight, and then it leaches all the starch out of them. Then you fry them twice, and they came out absolutely perfect.

Alison Stewart: Thanks for calling in, Jeff. Did you want to respond to either of our calls, Pete?

Pete Wells: I don't have anything to say about the fries at Katz's. I do like Brennan and [unintelligible 00:11:18]. I mostly go there for the roast beef sandwiches, but the fries are a nice addition. It's interesting the idea of the thick steak fry, because I do like a fry that tastes like potato. There are some that just don't. They taste like French fries, but they don't necessarily taste like potatoes. For me, you want potato and salt. If you don't really taste the potato, it can be good, but it's not great.

Alison Stewart: We're talking about best fries in New York City with New York Times restaurant critic Pete Wells. You're our guests as well. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. After the break, we'll talk presentations, seasoning, and dips, as well as some more recommendations from Pete and from you, our listeners. This is All Of It.

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You are listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest in studio is Pete Wells, New York Times restaurant critic. We are discussing his piece about the best fries in New York City. It's part of our Small Stakes, Big Opinion series. People have strong opinions. Someone has texted us, "Extra crispy thin fries with malt vinegar." That's Suzanne from Ridge Wood. Elephant and Castle has fantastic fries. They serve a heaping portion overflowing on the plate." "As a Canadian, if you want fries as a meal, Poutine is your answer, and they are the best from a chip truck."3 Interesting. Let's talk about Corner Bar and Eltro Paradiso. Those were two places you mentioned in your newsletter, owned by the same chef, Ignacio Matos. What is something special about these? Do they do something different, or are you getting the same fry at these different places because of the same chef?

Pete Wells: One of the things they do is fry in peanut oil, which is an interesting common thread in some of my favorite fries. There is just something about that oil that brings out the flavor of the potato, but also just I think it makes it, I don't know, I guess crisper, right? That's what we're looking for. The Eltro Paradiso, I think, calls [unintelligible 00:13:36]. There is some slight suggestion of Italian flavor in that, but the ones at Corner Bar are classic French style or Belgian style potatoes and salt. They get them a little bit darker, which should make a little bit crisper. Then the inside is a nice fluffy. It's like potato, but it's also like a little cloud in there. It's good.

Alison Stewart: What if I want some classic chips, as in fish and chips?

Pete Wells: Right, the English style.

Alison Stewart: Yes.

Pete Wells: There will be English people who'll be very upset that we're talking about chips on the same show as fries. They're entirely separate, right? But in my world, they look a lot alike, they taste a lot alike. They're supposed to be hand-cut. They're supposed to be a little bit uneven. As part of the fun of it is you got some really fat ones that are starchy and some really thin ones from the edges that are very, very crispy, like potato sticks, and you get it all in together and the angles are off. Those are quite wonderful. The triple cooking technique that I was talking about a minute ago, that was invented or developed by the English chef Heston Blumenthal, is being applied to English chips at a couple of places around New York.

Alison Stewart: Want to give a shout-out to one or two?

Pete Wells: Yes, sure. It's at the Hawksmoor Steakhouse and then two restaurants in the Village with an English chef, Dame and Lord's, and they do really nice chips.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Bobby from Washington Heights. Hi, Bobby. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Bobby: Oh, thank you. Thank you for taking my call. My favorite food in the world is French fries. I've been all over the world, Brussels, Paris, you name it. There's a simple, old-fashioned New York City diner called the Metro Diner at 100th and Broadway, and they really have great French fries. Very consistent. I guess there's a big turnover there, so the oil is always fresh. But whatever, you'll have some of the best French fries you ever had at this plain old-fashioned, simple New York City diner.

Alison Stewart: Bobby, thanks for calling in. Is there something special, Pete, about diner fries?

Pete Wells: They come in all kinds of shapes and sizes. I think my favorite thing about diner fries is that you can get them with gravy. Is it gravy and cheese? Is that the Disco fries?

Alison Stewart: I'd say, where are my Disco fries, people? My Jersey people. [laughs]

Pete Wells: I think the other great thing about diners is that you know they will have fries. It's just guaranteed.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Lee from the East Village, who does have a strong opinion. Hi, Lee. Thanks for calling in.

Lee: Thank you for taking my call. I lived in France right next to the Belgian border as a student. I know the subtle differences in French and Belgian fries and opened my eyes to what's really good out there. My favorite place is actually the [unintelligible 00:17:00] Company in Lower East Village. I would like to just offer one other thing, I don't know if it's been mentioned. There should be a law passed that absolutely prevents truffle fries. I just think they're dreadful. You kill something which innately is good, and it's under the heading of, what were you thinking when you came up with this idea?

Alison Stewart: Lee, thank you for calling in. How do you feel about extraneous seasoning? [unintelligible 00:17:31]

Pete Wells: I agree that truffle does not belong on a fry. If you like it, fine. To my mind, it's just there, so they can charge twice as much for it. I've never had a good-- Actually, I'm going to take that back. I have had maybe one or two good truffle fries, but it's when they're made with truffle salt and not truffle oil.

Alison Stewart: Any other seasonings that you like to have on fries you think can give it a little bit of extra texture. Are you into Black pepper, garlic?

Pete Wells: I'm okay with Black pepper, and I'm okay with garlic. I don't want every fry in the world done with garlic, and I don't want every fry in the world done with Black pepper. Occasionally some garlic in there, some herbs, you throw some rosemary in the oil, especially if you do it that way, and it seasons the oil, that can be a really great thing. It's an exotic French fry. It's not your core French fry.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Natalie from Grammar. She's going to shout out a place a lot of people have been texting us about. Natalie, go for it.

Natalie: Hi. It's a place that's famous for their truffle fries, actually, is Home Free. They started in [unintelligible 00:18:42] and now they have a standalone place in Bed-Stuy, too. I think a lot of their customers would beg to differ. I personally am over the truff but they have so many other amazing dipping sauces and flavors that I just try other stuff when I'm there. They've been around for a decade, I think. I think that's why people know who they are.

Alison Stewart: Natalie, thanks for calling in. Pete, on your list, you have Mark's off Madison in the Flat Iron district?

Pete Wells: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Tell us about why they made the list.

Pete Wells: That's a classic Belgian fry, and the caller who pointed out there is a difference between the Belgian and the French. It's true, I can't really get into the fine details myself because I don't understand them, but it is a Belgian style, learned in Amsterdam by the chef, Mark Strausman, but Belgium nonetheless. I don't know, they have like a little act-- they have a little extra texture. The exterior is a little rougher. I know they're cut by a knife and not by forcing them through--

Alison Stewart: A slicer?

Pete Wells: -a grid, a slicer, right? I think the knife cut just gives them a little extra texture and a little extra interest in the corners and the ridges, and then he salts the heck out of them. When I asked him if he had any tips for making fries, he said, just don't be afraid of the salt.

Allison Stewart: Is it his particular kind of salt? Do you want to have a--

Pete Wells: I believe he uses fine sea salt, not 100% sure, but I think that's what it is.

Allison Stewart: Let's talk to Joel on line two. Hi, Joel. Thanks for calling in.

Joel: Hey, how're you doing?

Allison Stewart: Good.

Joel: Hey, how you doing? I just want to say real quick, I have a couple restaurants out in the Rockaways, but I spent 20 years in Manhattan making millions of fries actually in Union Square, but I use a particular type of potato and it comes from Maine and it's a Kennebec potato, and that's the secret to a good French fry.

Allison Stewart: Were you a coffee shop? Wait a minute. You were at coffee shop?

Joel: Yes,

Allison Stewart: Nice memory, Joel.

Joel: Yes, for 15 years.

Allison Stewart: Thanks for calling in with the tip. Pete, how do you feel about presentation? Does that matter to you of your fry whether you get a heaping amount on? I love to order fries at Sardi's.

Joel: Oh.

Allison Stewart: The man in the coat comes and brings it to me in a cone.

Pete Wells: That's so nice.

Allison Stewart: There's something about the presentation that I'm convinced makes them taste better.

Pete Wells: [laughs] Well, I think it's very important that they not steam and get soggy, so if you have a huge heap and then you put a meatloaf on top of it, just why did you bother making them in the first place? The cup I think is a mechanism to separate them a little bit and lets some air circulate so they don't steam and get soggy. I'm okay with a big stack of them. It's very exciting when you see a really big platter and they're spread out on the plate and you can just French fries as far as the eye can see. That's a great thing. But there is something sweet about the cup or the cone, especially for the finger eaters [chuckles]. You can get at the ends of them. They're all just spread out for you like that. It's very nice.

Allison Stewart: Do you have in our last 30 seconds, any fry don'ts? Any dips, you say no, you have a strong opinion, what is your strong opinion?

Pete Wells: Well, boy, the worst fries in the world are the ones that are under-salted. It's so depressing, especially when they look like they're going to be good, and you taste them there's no salt. It somehow is very hard to get the salt on it once they leave the kitchen. If you have the saltshaker at the table, it won't quite do the job.

Allison Stewart: Always a pleasure to have Pete Wells from New York Times in our studio. Thanks to everybody who called in and thanks, Pete, for coming in.

Pete Wells: Oh, thank you. It's fun to talk about fries, anytime.

Allison Stewart: That is All Of It for today. I'm Allison Stewart. I appreciate you listening and I appreciate you and I will meet you back here next time.

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