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Third of February I received a letter. From the citizens budget commission and incorporated. Church burning the president in part. It reads as follows this. Troubles will be over by. The transit weighs down the expense budget the capital budget. Me. Subway a rehabilitation. Program of needed school. And urgent public. Transit system is made to pay its own way why not. Now. This same statement has been made game especially during the past year. The first line. Main financial troubles. By at ten. Am. I. The other members of the Board of Estimate as to the advisability of having an open hearing on that point and. Speak openly on the subject here. Of the board and explain their position on that. Ladies and gentlemen to the open hearing on the question and the Question of the Board would like to have you speak. As you can a lawyer not unlimited. But we would like you to address. This statement that has been so widely made. And is definitely stated here in Mr Osborne's letter the city's main financial troubles will be solved by it. And during the discussions ladies and gentlemen. I must ask you and those who are not speaking to beat. Me and I am to the speakers and to the Board of Estimate I hope you will refrain from applause or any noise. We have a long list of speakers that will run until at least late tomorrow night they question if possible should be completed as far as this hearing is concerned by tomorrow night I promise you that. The hearing is closed. You will not have to wait very long. Answer of the board of the policy of this administration will be. Please refrain from applause and aid me as a presiding officer to have this hearing conducted with as much dignity as a subject as important as this requires. We have agreed Board of Estimate of agreed that the. Speakers must confine themselves to facts. Prejudice or emotion is going to be of any help to this board and resolving this question just like to have facts the board reserves the right and will insist upon it. On the order in which speakers are to be called I have here before me a list made up on the basis of the applications to be heard that list will be followed in the. Best interests of the here now. I hope you will cooperate with me in this so that we can get some work done. On. The first speak here today we represent the transit committee Mr Paul window. And members of the bought of estimate this is the first time in twenty five years in which this subject had been an issue before the people of a study of the mayor and a bought of estimate have been willing to drag it out into the light of day and have it publicly discussed and fall back on type of the function of the people of the city. Mr Mayor the Board of Estimate ash how can subway fare help to solve the city budgetary problem. Burns letter in which she says the city's main financial troubles will be sung by at times some with it I'll accept facts they want to get on with my hair and say that it's a direct question and calls for a direct answer I can send. Again dissipated eighteen and one half million dollars operating deficit which would otherwise have to be carried in the city's operating budget this is self-evident and requires no demonstration. The fifty seven million dollars deficit which will otherwise have to be carried in the city's debt service budget. This elimination will reduce the tax rate by approximately thirty five points now last year the city had a non-U. catching on real estate up fifty one millions of vailable for operating purposes which it did not employ soley because it would have lifted the tax rate by approximately thirty two points it is happening that by a limiting the thirty five point cost of debt service this city will be in a position to bring into play for its operating budget back fifty one billion dollars of annual with real estate taxes are and still have a tax write a few points lower than it was last year in other words the fifty one billion dollars that brainless state is pouring into the debts budget where it is no help in meeting the operating requirements can be transferred by means of a self-sustaining fan to the operating budget where it is badly needed and the tax rate actually helped by a few points and I hope this demand that ends that that ends forever the god given that in an increase favor some kind of a windfall for real estate that won't be it's simply a matter of shifting that money which real estate pumping into the debts over budget over into the operating budget yes or just a moment. To take the eighteen and a half may get out of a deficit in the operating of the subway and take a fifty seven million dollars up with the debt service that reduces your entire budget it extent of about seventy five or seventy six million dollars that right that reduces your tax write. I when you reduce your tax rate. You reduce your budget. In. Any new funds into it you know you can use the other fifty one million the two didn't use last year because you didn't want to let the time forget about last year stick to the talking about this here all right now wait a minute wait a minute the deli you got a pen and paper there no I don't need one how do I get my mind about it and I am. Supposing for the sake of argument yet it had an eight hundred million down a budget this year now. Included in that eight hundred million dollars if you're fifty seven million dollars debt service yeah. And eighteen and a half million dollars. In your tax write assuming that we have a general fund of about three twenty a tax write would be about right out of the hundred that correct I'll take your word for it that's why I want to get have a pension. Now if you for a second of argument if you had attention subway fare instead of budget being eight hundred million dollars budget would be lashed by seventy and I think it I used around figure of sixty plus eighty you'd have seventy eight million dollars left that right have prime that gives you seven hundred twenty two million dollars budget right you can only you're a seven hundred twenty two million dollars in taxes that correct Now right now how are you going to increase that amount because you're going to shift your fifty seven billion dollars over to the subway just the controller I may only tell you as an illustration of my argument the statement which you yourself have publicly made that there is a viable for budgetary operating purposes another thirty points on the tax rate which is about fifty one million dollars you're talking about last year or this year I'm talking about this year I'll write you were also I'm talking about this year long mind we had an operating get tax levied budget of seven hundred which they keyed. I'm assuming that this year to be eight hundred right now if I take the seventy eight off the budget I naturally lose that seventy eight million dollars in taxes that's right all right so when dollars and cents there's no difference it doesn't bring in any more to the city treasury doesn't it leaves the city without it I know you know. I know wait a minute. You and I won't get anywhere unless you want to answer my question I'm trying it all right if I take the seventy eight out of the budget. I can make seventy eight million dollars less do I not I don't know whether you're collect seventy eight million left by taking it out of the budget while now you know that I'm second Sprite that I can only raise a certain amount I can't raise any more than what my budget is you can't raise any more than what the Constitution Frank has been right all right writing part all right if you have an eight hundred million dollars but I'm assuming you had the ten cent say yup but it would only be seven twenty two all right. All right now how is that made up you know by two percent on real estate All right the next general fund will take three hundred twenty million for real estate that's right to take another three hundred twenty men and out of a general fund Well I got have to accept where it showed me that whether it's ten million dollars more or less as him what and instead of the debt service instead of that that service being out of the sixty seventh would be one hundred million that's right so the top budget that you could have with a full tax rate on real estate a seven hundred forty million dollars I don't. Respect box that's on included. Is it is included in it your statement of Wapping actual receipts were over and above and beyond what you want to see that that that's reflected in the three hundred twenty million dollars general fund the increase that. Well I say Mr Paul or is there you know what my point is I don't I think you know what my point is was my purpose very very clear and very specific that if you have a tension subway where you take out of your project the debt service for the subway which is round figures I said sixteen and eighteen million dollars which was the increase that they gave to the French board with that which is the that's right you take that seventy eight out of eight hundred so you have a budget of seven hundred twenty two now it doesn't bring an extra nickel into the city try to ram I correct the net it brings in. Which I have said would have to be imposed on real estate and what I say is that when you don't know that you'll still have the same talk no. Brain might have looked up to you and I think it does we'll bring into focus right I was with the budget of seven hundred twenty two million Mr Wind Yes and the general fund of three hundred twenty. You've got a budget got a tax budget of four hundred divided into sixteen is two dollars and fifty five hundred and the difference between that and the full rate that you're paid simply means that you're carrying over from your general budget could take out that sixty or seventy million dollars whatever the amount is the subway ride automatically you get eighty eight degrees and they stop at the tax rate. Not if you use the full two percent real estate you'll have the same tax right to have life. I don't think you want to waste much time. With the meeting I don't want to delay this hearing was. Placed I'm sure that the people. The people in this room have not got. Talking about I don't think I need to bring it back again to that point. Why. Is it your opinion that the. Majority opinion indicates about eighty three million. Dollars deficit is. For the most part above. And the. Three million dollars. That's right. The truth. Will give the city just about. It will give a. Lot of transportation I'm talking about me. Or not. Financial trouble. Now is a true that the that would give the city six or seven million dollars not start how much would it get do you say it will make up the. Tax rate on the kind of. State comptroller has stated very clearly that there won't be much left inside the present constitutional tax limit. So I don't waste much time on that Mr Mayor is it not a fact that last year the city could have collected for that when I asked him but that's last year because you're confronted with the saying here. You have become a good one are going to have a conference somewhere they understand yet we get through how much do you say the city will get out of the ten cent thing from any additional revenue accurate pay seventy eight million dollars Then we have an answer that I happily answer that is one million dollars for your operating budget. And I was actually I might. Be one million dollars Do they have. A one million dollars if you didn't collect from real estate last year. Well now you know we'll never get anywhere if you're going to talk about last year you're not asking. Very much that are all I. Do and I think you and I understand each other and perhaps. The rest of the people don't quite understand what you're trying to get now what I'm saying is you don't have to. Have to be you know when you don't have to be a. Good figure that. Any boy what do you hear every aged couple can't thank you just as well as you and I care if they know what the formula. If you had an eight hundred million dollars budget. Before you had at the time Sandy. It was a practice run that three hundred twenty. That gives you four hundred eighty dollars left and you divide that by the book and you don't pick the formula and I. Expected by the Constitution and you divide that by sixteen billion which is the assessed value way from the real you get a tax rate of three. Now assuming that you have a bad. Instead of your budget being eight hundred million you can take out of. The sixty billion dollars which is the debt service. That paper that sell and you take out the A.P.. Which just caused by the grace of God I have a branch of what good would an operating get a lot. Of seventy eight so you have a budget of one hundred. And if you take off your three hundred and twenty million dollars of Gangrel Parton's you got four hundred two and you divide that by sixty and you get a tax rate of nearly two dollars fifty five scientists but right now I think attack by being there what you are what you're saying exactly what I'm saying but we don't agree. About the timing that. He's saying exactly what I. Want to get is that if you subtract seventy eight million from eighty three that you're going to get housing blown on my deal on men. Thank you my. Little boys and I know. Your. Right. Here. So you. Think based on a couple. Does that. Mean it's not the. Fifty seven but fifty seven on the eighteen and I have about fifty five seventy eight make. Eighty three million back if we put in the right that's right my point is. For a national or state it he says if you do that the. Gamble seventy eight million and they get three million little. Financial problems and. I don't understand. These things but he's going to take. What he intended on doggedly The fact was that if you take the deficit out of. Your troubles for governor preparing the budget for next year and I think that that is a literal fact. Can we get clarification on that when you say you're troubled deal with. Your presently. Carrying it under the law and. Take it away from us and put it somewhere else in your travels. If you're right I get a lot of my just up to a point. Now I would say. That's not my cup of proximately seven event of your answers from A to anticipated one hundred million deficit and whether you'll need thirty million is more about getting all revenue can only be determined when we know whether and by how much you are carry over at the end of the present political year will be brighter than the correct balance you're afraid at the beginning of the present first year and whether and by how much your ocular think on the fails tax on the right track tax are greater than you anticipated your current budget for the market must be remembered that when the mayor gets an early night to work and preparation of the budget the deficit of one hundred million will undoubtedly be from thankfully reduced if as we generally believe the recovery from the special tax levied last year left for potentially greater than anticipated it would thing reasonable to expect that when it counts and they're making sure they can within the current tax rate for an additional seventy million to make the operating deficit the studies operating budget problems now of course you can raise the fifty one million of additional realistic taxes with our lemonade in the subway capital but if you'll go the tax rate goes up over thirty points and that may result in a very difficult year for a fifteen percent increase in rent throughout the study now after the capital budget I felt the thing failed little relief approximately four hundred twenty five million of additional foreign power for thirty years now confronted by capable demand for stuff like rehabilitation out of park capital really thought. Until these are met and they must be met first because they are essential for the safety of the public other essential needs no matter how important will have to wait and even close calls in hospitals we have a hundred million less bills and hospitals on the way that they could have been provided during the past few years because of and this capable privately when the practice of transit needs to estimated by the broader plan to take the amount to an additional two hundred fifty millions was taken off the capital budget by the relief of its four hundred twenty five million of borrowing power and the fact that he doesn't leave the city can go ahead with its capital program for other partners and develop its current We've got the proof of legal love me that those in hospitals will be directly helped by an increased threat to the extent of cans and hundreds of millions of dollars of capital funds which would otherwise have to be directed to friends of the I have to make for the pension pay at one three the operating income by about ninety million found I eighty some say eighty five but whatever the think it will be enough to provide for the anticipated subway death of that five million now on the referendum if I felt like a referendum is health and health it will be determined by a subway ride and there are millions of they are directly involved in this they feel they are right to express their view of the poll in the light of their reference that subway riders thank God let up the really not being against the going rate it means added expense to them and they are asked whether they prefer to pay ten. Cents for the transportation they are now getting the obvious answer will be now. If the ferret double then nothing is guaranteed in the subway ride of the returning and the guardian of rider thought but if you feel the increase nothing more than attack from Subway Ride can make the thirty five get carried up and I. Have never heard of a cake and what can the electorate has voluntarily voted itself the fact that the failed factor been for the referendum lies fear of what happened but they did if income tax is a real estate taxes that's particularly applicable they will be rejected that will be the fate of any taxonomic bought propelled by those flawed if popular popular referendum it will be the fate of a fairing great if resulted to the public thought only of the meanings of needing the city's financial needs and the well make any difference happens like of the legal and financial argument there is no hope for a referendum in that kind of an approach but the original way in which this issue can think presented which will make the success of the referendum so there is something the subway riders want more out and they want that extra nickel and that is the transportation factor which is that it would be nice and in fact the issue of public safety is directly involved public health comfort decently dignity and self-respect I directly involved advocates of a five cent pay and have a talk about that I think that the subway fare the native political football the subways have never run in their way and there has never been an up money even to run them properly a lot of keep the equipment in from up to date but that's the way to get ministrations have allowed for Paul Niren mob behind other railroads in the quality of service and the conviction of equipment the result is that still far is the I R T And the M.T.R. from saying the cars are at risk right the ventilation system of the job. The fan of Terry facilities are running on it and if they can that is a next it's a totally inadequate in forty years we have learned a lot about improving railroads right with but little if any of it has been applied to the subway layout but thankfully it's very wild and when they were open the upkeep has been as lacking in imagination and the subways have been lacking in ventilation we don't have the finest subway cars taken in the world that was now in use in the I R T And the M P R about the work there are there's little reason to make people prime long flights of stairs to get out of the subways as they would be to make the time long flight of stairs to get them off the escalators I hear this day call out the rest of fighting back and to properly illuminated and properly ventilated. That feller right from eleven I came upon That's the real life and vibe right adequate entrances and exits and all the other details of intelligently designed and operated railroad but there's nothing new about these ideas other railroads have gone from flying to have them find comfort peace and help protection with speed and ease in France thank you for all of the eye acting and the empty Thank you. Thank you many of them need more light and subway riders want more and better service they know it can't be a pain by hot air it must be poured one day for playing all the money must come from somewhere thing though it can't be provided merely by calling taken felt favorites which is nonsense they know that you can for example take anything you want it still has to be paid for you know the fitting phrase losses are exhausted and a need for the rules and Little have to be found. I think it's abundantly clear that I can fanfare. Well adds to the patient to the borrowing capacity of the city to enable a steady. They want to take still further improvement an extension of the subways and to build more schools more hospitals more playgrounds and other urgently needed to put improvements than the present means of the city are met I think it's also abundantly clear and I think the controller will agree that the ten cent fare will permit an additional tax of fifty seven million dollars on real estate for operating expenses of the city of New York without increasing the overall burden I'm real estate all of this is accomplished. Without increasing the overall burden oh part time real estate my increasing assist my waist I'm not knocking your kind of assessments I'm assuming if they stay i'll let me complete this thought Mr controller. And then if you wish to discuss it I'll be glad discuss it but I'd like to finish the thought. All of these things. Will be accomplished by ten percent fair a number of expedience have been suggested which are supposed to accomplish one or the other of these things but not all of them the amendment of the Constitution which in the opinion of many of us is not a feasible solution your journey to to Albany on Thursday which in the opinion of many of us perhaps not as well informed as you are. Will be fruitless unless you can show that we ourselves have done something to put a losing enterprise upon a sound business like thanks there been other suggestions most of them I believe have been fancy I think this hearing has been singularly free. Peals to emotion to class prejudice to all of the things that demagogues would normally be expected to appeal to at a public hearing of this character I think that my friends of the opposition are to be congratulated upon the moderation with which they expressed their honest and sincere opinions but when it all comes down to the end of the argument it is the undeniable fact that our capacity to build needed improvements in subways and in other respects will be greatly enlarged by the ten cent fare It is also a fact which the controller is glad to admit that eighty three million dollars more than the city now receives for any purpose will be available for certain purposes how it's perfectly true that he will not gain any additional revenues to for his one nine hundred forty seven forty eight budget on the other hand he will be relieved of certain substantial expenses which he would otherwise have to provide for in the one nine hundred forty seven forty eight budget and I know this controller well enough to know that as between having the opportunity to reduce certain budgetary charges on the one hand and raised money by taxes on the other hand he would ALL whole lot rather balance his budget by a reduction of of expenses that can feasibly be reduced without harm to the services of the. City of New York now I am under no illusion as to the effect of this hearing Mr Mayor I know that the gentlemen of the Board of Estimate on the whole strategy out with a very definite set against increasing the five cent fair and honest and sincere conviction on their part the most that anyone could hope for out of this hearing would be that they are beginning to realize that responsible i once in this community for reasons which are equally sincere and at least equally good believe that they are mistake in the attention the devotion that has been given to the fetish of the five cent fair Mr Mayor I believe that if this hearing is accomplished nothing else it has killed the fetish of the five cent fair I believe also that a great many people who have worship at the shrine of that are not completely aware of the fact that thirty says that it takes a little time for news like that to get around but I am satisfied just America that this is the beginning of a public movement to demand decent transportation in the city of New York transportation that is consistent with the dignity and the magnificence of this city and the desire of its people to move about in a dignified human fashion and not like cattle or worse than cattle I am perfectly straight Mr Mayor that in the very near future and I hope for the sake of your own fine reputation a little happened while you are still in office. That we shall have a self-sustaining subway but part of There isn't any other alternative to a self-sustaining subway if you're going to have a well run properly administered fiscal policy in this greatest city in the world now I would be remiss in my duty to myself Mr Mayor if I did not express my very great appreciation for your courtesy throughout this trying hearing you've done a swell a job and it was a very hard job to do and it's wow way my compliments to you sir and he your colleagues thank you count. The members of the board and myself and I would like to say to you personally. We appreciate the work you put into this and no matter what the opinion of the board is you still have our respect and. We're very grateful to you for the work you put in and doing your job thank you. Now. There are three. Three members of the city council present I see most vulnerable here I see Mr only here I see must. Stand here for four of them I think yes almost to Ben Davis here step up to the microphone must guess you and I will hear. Mr Cash only. You know most cash on me yes. The crowd that wants to speak and the number of people who want to speak and opposition to raising the fare is very large. And when I asked that the members of the board and members of the council would cut their remarks a shot as you possibly can because outside of that the other speakers will be limited and I'm very much I appreciate that Mr Mayor I think which member of the Bard I will try to be brief but I do wish to advance here some arguments that have not been presented here. By the proponents of the five six fair. I am speaking for council and Davis as well as myself consequent Davis will not speak I wish to command a vote of vestment for calling Yes hearing and I have sat here for two days and I have listened to very able presentations on both sides find speakers who have advanced their arguments very intelligently from their point of views I have appreciated that just the bait has been held without rancor without bitterness without expressions of animosity it's spend the opening up a great public question for the people to finally make their decision now I just wish to before beginning I just wish to state the question here is is a ten cent fare for self-sustaining fare on the subway system transit system going to solve the financial problems of New York City if not how can these financial problems be solved I maintain in my humble opinion. The South stating fair will not solve the problem. Of the finances in New York it will not even solve the problem of the tragic system Oh it would solve the problem for two or three years but I think it's a bad governmental policy to only plan for two or three years ahead I think we should plan for forty and fifty years ahead by nineteen fifty New York City will be about nine million in population let's say that we do get an increased fare some day we'll have to extend the subway when you have nine million population in the next thirteen years you can't continue. To carry that heavy burden of plants protection only on surface mine to feed to the subway system some day you'll have to extend those lines in Queens and build new lines someday you'll have to extend the independent line church Ave growth but not asking Tideway someday you'll have to extend the Utica Avenue line for the I R T In Brooklyn to go up and they have to in East New York some day you'll have to extend the Flatbush airline the I R T In Brooklyn I am not familiar with Queens but I know people who are acquainted with the geography of Queens could probably point out half a dozen different places you've got extend subway lines of the only line where's the money going to come from the building new lines you would have to go in there you'd have to borrow the money and again you have the problem of a lie of a subway system that it's not self-sustaining. You take the people are paid to fares today with pay to fares under the ten cent fare even for ten cents or fifteen cents for two rides when you extend these lines your income is going to drop because when you extend your say to you to add a line to your three miles further. You're going to decrease your revenue because you're going to have to fairs being pay people around Alabama Avenue and you still York Pennsylvania walked the subway I won't have to take the bus get off it you have no and pay a second fare so you're going to be back where you were started then your argument could be a twelve cent fare a fifteen cent fare then you reached a point that your fare so great that's going to affect business in New York well then put the part of stores up and Newark you can put the pot and stores up in Jersey City you can put the pot with stores up in Yonkers and I've heard this man and I'm surprised they bring the I can with that the people out of town are riding for only a nickel for I wish we had a half a million more people come in from out of town every day in New York City we make money on the out of town people because there is a profit on the short distance that you ride the transit system the one of the travels five and six blocks the one that travels from the Pennsylvania station at thirty third Street up to Times Square we make money on those they come in the New York City and spend millions and millions and millions of dollars every year and I'm so surprised to hear a businessman take the floor and advocate something that will only five minutes away from New York. I'm surprised to know that there's. Leaders of the pot when storage. We figure that the increase fares going to take an eighty three million dollars mark but your take you don't you don't know you can't figure that when you consider the human element that a housewife may not take that trip a week a trip and two weeks down the hop and start to make it down once a to match and she may find to start her own neighborhood where she can conveniently buy she got to take along a seven or eight year old child that trip to the park which store is going to cost forty cents and you got to eat lunch out so that would cost another thirty cents each so that's a dollar so she figures while out shopping the neighborhood. If you get the fare up too high you're going to see people not build in New York City they'll figure it's easier to it's nicer to have a home further out of the country I've got to pay high transportation fare in New York City so let me look further out of the country now one argument here for just let's take a place like Red Hook in Brooklyn it's one of the poorest neighborhoods in Brooklyn probably in the city today for a school child who's in high school has got to pay two fares to go to high school there's no high school in Redhook that's twenty cents a day that's a dollar a week for that child to go to high school not take a worker who's joining thirty five dollars a week let's take the ferry goes up to ride for fifteen cents that's a dollar and a half a week for that child and if that worked or will make the sacrifice even got a pad that an athlete but suppose there's another child it becomes of age to go to high school the same time he's going to sacrifice one of the children's education because he can't afford three dollars a week transportation fare I want to. State regarding Mr Epstein statement out of which a coddled Bill I think that Mr Epstein didn't have the facts correct and which are kind of bill save the five fair if them which a kind of bill hadn't passed on September eleventh one thousand nine hundred and forty two the fair would have been increased because a state law stayed at that time that by September tenth one thousand forty two the alliance must be self-sustaining. Means that the fare would have to have been raised to that point to be self-sustaining and I was surprised to hear Mr Epstein a sales in which a cargo bill because the Democratic Party supported in fact Governor Lehman signed that bill nine hundred forty two it's that bill that say the fighting for and I'd rather have the power to determine this question here and bought a vest with that city council with the people who have a right to a referendum then have lined up a nominee where the majority of the legislators do not come from New York City and it's always easy to solve the consumer for the underdog when he doesn't come and live in your own backyard you know that you know that yourself from the whole attitude of the New York state government regarding finances in the New York City now I want to submit here the record a plant but that was published by the citizens friendship Committee in one thousand nine hundred and forty four you'll notice here a list of names I don't like to this is thing that's a real estate dealers are for the ten cent fare and I'll explain why I don't like that I got here I have a reprint of that being handed to you gentlemen I submit that for the record well that I want to submit to Pappas lateral myself on the five hundred fair one of my hundred forty two one nine hundred forty four forty five now you will note that on this it doesn't give the identification of one individual one person now it's not fair to publish a list of names it's such a way that's not where you have a right to be for the tie five ten said fair you have a right to look fresh any opinion you want you have a right to get up and say that we should have a mileage system pay so much I'm out of same as a railroad for why do you want to hide who you are. That's the thing that I raise here I'm We've done some research work on that and I'll tell you why I don't like this thing just attacking the real estate people out of six hundred nineteen names we've uncovered two hundred ninety eight by volunteer research work in the hundred sixty two or businessman sixty four bankers forty nine are real estate. Gentlemen in the real estate profession you have one exporter five in finance is one engineer for insurance executives told the Lincoln scrap younger people in New York City that don't own a bit of property that also want attention fair not only the real estate people what you have here is a group of those in the highest economic level of our city and I don't know why I don't know why or why they feel that the poor underdogs the working people of this city the getting something for nothing and they just don't feel satisfied but for some reason or other now well take the balance of the subway I heard a gentleman from the Chasen National City Bank speak I'd like to have the names of the band holders published you would find I'm sure in more than eighty percent of the cases of those bands that the very people who own those bands were bailed out by the city. The ones who want the ten cent fare that day why didn't we have a referendum by the people in one thousand nine hundred forty and whether we should pay three hundred fifty million dollars. For the old obsolete equipment why didn't the people have the opportunity to vote at that time when we fought back to this old absolute equipment and made these. Good it's the only case that I know of in the United States where private If term of the public conveyor was bailed out by you not a government we've had railroad United States that have. Backed up the reorganized regarding the walking thank Paul and many others and they reorganize and started over a new but the city maybe we had to do it I'm not a. Legal expert I'm an attorney maybe we had that though there might have been something of the law that I don't know but it does seem unfair not just that after they held the bond they had sunk into a very low level and then they were made good by the city of New York and the fans but backed up the part maybe they're above par I don't know and then they come out and argue for the five thousand fair but the working people York City if they don't pay a self-sustaining through they're paying it out to some other way for instance I submit here for the record the electric rates up thirty seven cities are United States over two hundred fifty thousand population you know that out of the thirty seven cities little York City four point three five kilowatt hours of electricity used. By residents paid that I asked that I asked electric right in that country of the thirty seven cities over two hundred and over two hundred fifty thousand in the late why is it not a public poll do you feel of the people or if it's an adult. Privately all but why is it they can get twenty five kilowatts electricity there for a dollar a day of dollars gave you I don't want to speak of P.V.A. but they furnished the same amount of electricity for seventy five four why is that a private you tell of the old SAP and says point. Than give twenty five kilowatts electricity for at dollar and fifteen cents wound maintained the same people that want to place the fair R.R. ready they have their vans and own the securities and bonds and C. and shares of Edison they receive their dividends but the plans for interest on the bond they were then by They're already overcharging the people who York City twenty four million dollars a year in surcharges electric rates in comparison with other cities but already so if if if the people of New York City that worked on a play about the fence and fed they pay it out to some other way I just want to submit for the record briefly a couple words because it's been mentioned here the question of the real estate stuff now we all know that the effect with last year with fifteen billion dollars nineteen thirty three zero they were nineteen and a half billion dollars But in that period of time we've had almost That's nine hundred thirty one million increase in population and with your thirty three the half billion dollars worth of property has been added to the assessed roll if property were assessed in the same terms and I think thirty two we would have an assessment of twenty three billion dollars in New York City. Well at sixteen then I really. Don't like that speech beggared throw they're taken from the financial records of the city I just can't believe that real estate is paying too heavy I just. Well when we consider that the income last year as the tax pledge was about close to eighty million dollars more than watch for like that back seventeen years ago eighty million dollars but with the increase in the population of one million in seventeen years and we're three and a half billion dollars worth of after the editor the tax role that they percentage I'll be. Tax levy all of the total tax of the cold budget expense budget fell from eighty to eighty three percent down to less than fifty percent in which it was last year one million increase in population that's more people living together United States but it's certainly the number four with the exception of Los Angeles or Philadelphia or Chicago that's a cratering priest and all the people of St Louis. Now I come down to the last point Mr Mayor I do have to state that I don't like the way that they go when in the record on the question of a real estate tax in comparison with other cities. You say you care to panic OK I really think the fact that they had to pay for it out we paid to wait here in New York City and thank God the place lost that's out there because in some places that fact may be a tiny effect but no in proportion to the real value of. Something like the actor's lot and the effect with it's high in relation to the real value of the farm there's only one way you can feel that it's total total amount of tax revenue in that it has a vital part of the nation and you know how much real estate it's a capital. That's the only way. I see eight thirty on your dial now you N.Y.C. F.M. ninety five point three My guess I can do. The microphones here so the station and I listening in the Board of Estimate room the carrier of the. Discussion of the subway fare issue which is being debated here before the mare and the Board of Estimate in the various organizations that are interested in them of course we're all interested in the fair that will be the ultimate result of the debates here and so the whole. Arrowed learns just come into the Board of Estimate room the members of the Board of Estimate are all assembling there's a few shots by the cameramen and the usual activity that we see going like this is in full progress here in the Board of Estimate room here in this beautiful girl atmosphere and we listen to the discussion of the air issue on the subways and in just a moment you'll hear the voice of the man as soon as you can get auto and quiet in the room because arrest many people taking their places and they are given a preliminary rap broader but I think you get a real hard rap the next time and we'll have quiet and the Proceedings of the afternoon session of the subway hearings there's an excellent representation here and that every possible facility is being made available to the speaker to the members of the Board of Estimate so that every word of his daughter will be fully transmitted by the means of your city station and radio system loudspeakers I feed in different parts of the city hall building itself and also the plows in front of City Hall so that even those passing it isn't predicted that many will stand in the cold and listen but there are facilities inside in the council chamber another spot to listen to the proceedings from the Board of Estimate room which is limited naturally for a hearing of this size it seems that everybody in New York and a complete cross-section are interested in the issues here today and there's meritorious rap for order and now the proceeding of the afternoon session of the subway hearing of wayfaring is underway and they are speaking out to control and Lazarus and we're just waiting now for a few words of all takers. And some light here because the figures. Running into millions as they do concerning any city project of any seems to be the problem financial one. They are doing little because all the legal rights and I would never go to our doctor Little Susie smiley face or public health or the universe to. That. Remarkably like you and the point. They might be entitled The public health. Of our all over crowded subway our searchers on recent years. Devoted to pretty extensively to the study of the kids that are in fact and have shown like there. That holds. A promise failed which are citizens of the influenza and ammonia and related respiratory diseases. I can smell by. And that they are transmitted from person to person each one of them is due to a single specific age and they have only one thing in common that they are catching and passed from one person to another. For them are they studies have shown that the danger of infection is in direct ratio to the distance from the individual who is infected to the person who is susceptible In other words the closer you are with the person who has the infectious agent such as a cold the more likely you are to catch that fact it's quite possible for a person with a cold Bush highly infectious to pass one hundred people in the street and in fact. He may even be in an office with one hundred other people and it is a large area and well ventilated and more yes it will not catch that cold. But if the conditions are all the crop then the danger is very real and when they become so overcome as they are in our subways at the rush hours in the mid winter time then the danger is very real indeed. You gentlemen may say well why bring it up at this particular time conditions are no worse this year than last not perhaps have they been any worse this year than any year in recent years I am perhaps I'm willing to grant that point but I am certainly aware of the fact that this man is has existed for some time and I believe is going to work for them are what you have become I am used to this unsanitary conditions to such a degree that we ignore. An Indian our boys our soldier boys for example went to China and to India and they came back and post of the terrible sanitary conditions of those cities the smells were so terrible so obviously where they are sanitary and the things that astound them most was that those Indians are Chinaman passed by those conditions for the out and in particular. HAR they didn't see the sights nor did they smell the smell grazing was a gotten used to them the same is true I regret to say a large citizens in the city got the sun sanitary condition has existed so long that we live in order and do not appreciate its dangers. At least this potential danger. Just a lot of prevent anybody from. Going into the subway. Not that I wouldn't suggest anything. If you say. Something to that. Person that called back to status conscious of the fact that you develop. Your practice. Awkward to have a physical examination every time you want to go into the subway. But. However a great deal if we put in. The overcrowded stuff Mr Mayor at least according to reports in his. Campaign stated that he would have if. You are. Under a mark I think he's great credit that he has a. Reference and are you. At the present time. Campaigning what the basement is being on the take this is fine it is also true however that abatement important as it is infinitesimal in a relationship. The fact. That as related to help out of a place. You are. Right the long walk away. Somewhere around five o'clock yes that's not subways are operated but did you ever try to get. Out I don't have anything like the body. Part Part of what. Are most likely to be packed when you can have a cold in the summer. Where you have a crowd of people who. Are. Well Professor Smiley his remark was very interesting. Like the text of. Matthew. Thank you. My name is. Only. Twenty four hundred number. But the great. Property. For the. Hundred Million. Two hundred million. Million dollars of that amount. That amount some twenty five million is for debt say this on the rapid kind of today about thirty six points in the tax rate it means roughly a half cents out of every tax dollar paid to the city to that degree the real estate tax payers of Manhattan subsidizing the affairs of the users of the subway to put the rapid transit lines on a self-supporting basis take that gets a dish out of the tax levy budget and to that extent temporarily at least relieve the taxpayers even if in large part it is offset by the increased assessed valuation was announced February place and the threatened tax rate increase as of July third. The taxpayers cannot stand to both continued subsidizing of the subway riders and the increased assessments and a higher tax rate particularly at a time when we are already subsidizing the rent payers through a freezing of all rants that depression levels there is no reason to subsidize a subway ride any more than any other public utility such as electric light gas water telephone all the like the fact that the city subways should not be offered as a reason we are we were told when unification was being promoted that after it became a fact the charges against the taxpayers would be materially less if not indeed eliminated entirely exactly the contrary has been through the excess of the income over expensive operation formerly applied to transfer debts disappear. And by reason of the new bonds issued by the. Great. Fifty four million seven hundred sixty nine thousand two hundred fifty dollars. Twenty three million seven hundred ninety one dollars hundred ninety one thousand four hundred sixty seven dollars one hundred thirty three an increase. Dollars. Thirty one million dollars which. Means a twenty point increase in the tax rate. Should also be made. And its revenue is impaired Of course we all know that one and two family house is held by small property owners abound in the outlying borrowed the last classification type published by the tax department shows four hundred sixty seven thousand two hundred fifty seven such property Dov Seidman have. The total assessed valuation well over three billion dollars which means that these small property only about seven million dollars. The cost of. Why it might be. No subways he asked if a part of the fare of a subway ride out traveling in the other ball. Has been happening. For twenty five million thoughts. Much publicity has been given recently they are one Manhattan block taken at random which sold out to stock holdings life insurance policy and mutual savings bank accounts some thirty one million five hundred fifty thousand people had a direct or indirect interest in the ownership of its thirty one taxable pieces and the fact that it was the burdens placed upon the so-called income producing properties that in a few years dividends on life insurance policies were cut and interest on savings accounts for more than four percent of the present one of the half percent or so. Moreover the community itself has a stake in real estate relief from the present acute shortage of rental housing. And combustible States depends upon new building upon additions to the present supply or rental space and it might be noted in passing additions to the assessment role the creation of such new buildings depend upon the opportunity of real property return neither enterprises nor investors are going to rush into new ventures in a field where tax and other burdens all operating to prevent investment from owning an adequate return. To the matter of referendum it should be noted that the original Rapid Transit Act under which the unification was affected contain no provision for such a public skate defrag question was obviously deemed one that should be left to the administration with the responsibility for the city's finances and for the sake of operation of the transit system. That responsibility. Passed on to the massive. Pretense of being a problem. Economic. Radio's newspapers for. Radios are all. I can. Catch up I want to question your question yeah. With a high degree of. The other place you make it. I have noticed that the proponents. The opponents if you like. The question to make you think May I complete my statement and the question marks must. Make if you want to make an impression on the boy I will inform your now politely as I can. Time I. Think the question of the rest of. The people. I want. To explain your lap. The explanation they want to find fault. And see. And. They have. When you are invited here or when your request was granted we're very happy to have you here I hope you. Come here for the purpose of giving the board. But you haven't the. When it comes up. My ass to get it clear it is a thought that that's enough. But if you want something. If you're offended I want to. Ask you to explain that. If you want to. Continue. I have a. One time. Anyway. But I pay very little attention to what you have to say. And one of the other you know one of the up we're not here for working at this job let's. Go back and. Have me I would like. My statement and. If. The question is do we go along. Point and I don't agree with you. You don't give me the right. Point and that's the question. Thank you very much. For I left off and then I'll stop. Because I want to get through with this report I would like to have your attention now that's what. You want. To. Be given. Time by asking your. Question. The question. That should be left to the administration with the responsibility for the financing and for the. Operation of the system. Responsible should be discharged and not passed on to the massive vote. To have the courage to. The right course and I believe the people would applaud such courage particularly. The other forms of taxation direct and indirect likely. On this point the February issue of The New York Times declared editorial the taxes imposed. And I quote that taxes are. And will be a more serious hardship to the poor than to the rich this is one of the higher tax is another with the inevitable lifting or easing or rent control the riser wrench will reflect more accurately this increased. Taxes all these taxes finally get back to the poor man as well as the rich and the. Meanwhile rent anticipate a flood of Appeals. For approval justified rent increases to compensate for increased taxes if taxpayers do not get relief from the unjustified costs of subsidizing the subway ride your administration. Washington to continue rent control. While raising taxes on assessments on the other it is about consideration was given to those who pay the bills simple justice would seem to deem that subway riders including. Should not have a good part of the cost of their rides paid by taxpayers should not be given unwilling handouts day after day by one group of citizens who have become more and more. It all sides of the question who are properly presented to the people we believe. Have the people of other communities supporting. Particularly if they are. In the way of. Renovating facilities and equipment. To supplement. I was much disturbed to read in the press last week that an accredited for consumers organization in this city. Had suggested in his appearance before a congressional committee holding a hearing on the matter rent control done in the event of a governmental recognition of the need for some increase in residential rents that might stage a ranch right. Out of door governmental regulation that is to be obeyed when you like it and when you don't it's bad enough in itself but its implications are highly dangerous to the welfare of the city any should know that in the absence of rent income tax payments must stop and then the city would experience watching cargo did not so long ago when city services were in a standstill City teachers police firemen and other civil servants were. Not so many years ago Mayor Walker brought. Brought back hardly from a vacation by a talk of a taxpayer strike and among the serious advocates. Very well known philanthropist the late Mr August actually the Real Estate Board of New York took most decided step to immediately end any such ill considered calls just talk is dangerous and stupid by no matter what Nancy I did and I hope we will hear no more of it for the good of the city. We also hear Mr Mayor in recent years the statement that real estate owners should pay the cost of transportation because transportation adds to the value of real estate carried to its logical conclusion not five cents but nothing should be charged to the subway rider and real estate should pay it all of course the answer is not only that it didn't possible but full of the argument was recognized from the very beginning of our appetites adventures. There were privately owned lines run for profit of the owners and not one considered and no one considered that anyone should subsidize them when the city's only lines were considered when the city's own lines were considered it was written into the tragic fact that after five years of operation of any city construct constructed or acquired lines it must be fought on a self-supporting basis it was recognised of the city's tax sources could not and should not be asked to stand the gaff as to value I mean actual values and not tax valuations in one nine hundred thirty nine long before the present tragic facilities were available and when the transit Nicholas was twice why does not in transit operation course we had when a state value is far in excess of today's value in the days of depression with the fourth transit operations in operation we saw values at the bottom but taxes to pay to try to deficit on the constant increase. Practically all property is invested properly depends on. Economic levels in nine hundred forty three. Depression levels and that is where they were approaching a nine hundred forty six we have seen values on the average by actual figures which supply just slightly below the assessed for the property sold and. The nine hundred thirty two. Has been the excessive. And resulting taxes due in large part to a rabbit rabbit. That has been the influence of extended rapid transit costs on Manhattan real estate and heightened pays almost half the total cost. Paid almost half of the state tax. Memorandums you're on an adjective Mr Epstein the top appointed representative of the people. Much if I would be permitted just want to do all these questions on the other hand if you or I would. But I would much prefer you know every bit of information we can get. But you have to volunteer I want to go any Thank you thank you now asked the statements by Mr Epstein the share of the cost of local government paid by relish tax state and state the fact that real estate. Over eighty percent of the government does not. Should have been forced to do so. During a space. Followed upon top closure. Not hundreds but thousands of companies had to be taken by the insurance companies. Savings Banks and others and these. Two or. Three years but they were not saleable. It was the policyholders who had their dividends cut and the savings bank depositors who had their interest rates MacGill from four and a quarter to one and a half percent paid that cost at the. Present. Rents have been frozen at the present depression levels. Increase in cost of operation upon anything now in the end. Is the end of such increases in sight nor is the end of increase in sight and remember that. Place at the place between real estate and a fair return of investment the mall we will discourage the building activity needed a few housing. Which is now causing anguish to so many of the very people listed at the claims to represent I thank you General regularly. And then the majority of. American members of the board. I find myself in a rather than fade just as are most of the speaking to what restaurants. I've been speaking in addressing themselves to the man in the street and a fourteen year old boy whose identity is not been revealed I've been informed that since launching the man on the street is so punk rock and groggy from the arguments advanced here that one of the emergency ambulances took him away and they blocked why of what has been picked up by the true novices so I'll have to address my remarks to the members of the Board of Estimate and the people of the city of New York who are vitally interested in this proposition before this board this afternoon and I've made a lot of people up and I've been around here since one thousand nine hundred twenty five I think I've been here longer than any elected official in the city of New York I witnessed these scenes before this meeting was called put up by press and having people express their views on the five and. The real estate permitted to express their desire I haven't heard a single desire expressed by any one of them as to what he wants the president before this board is not whether or not a referendum should be held. There was no such question ever before the Board of Estimate with respect to the subway fare the question before this Board of Estimate is this Do you believe that the ban on the subway should be increased and if you have yes then you have that way because you believe that there should be in place and you. Believe simply for the pipe as a passing the buck to the city council. Affirm your judgment for an increased fare on light on the other hand we forward to the people in the form of a referendum the intention of the. PLAYER It was enacted at a time when the. Language for this proposition. Was that way at one stage of the proceeding he proposed a tax on subways. If you want. The radio I think it's twelve o'clock. On Sunday and listen to the commercial I believe it's of the Adams company. But you see I don't even listen and I don't even a little the sponsor is but I know that when the people of the city operate his sponsors he proposed a tax on subway fare and at that time there was apprehension that a marinate might be inclined to put all their on the people and increase. So progressive forces in the legislature passed the news of Colorado law it is simply a check up on a Board of Estimate which might unfortunately come into whoppers and. Have been advanced by the real estate it was an attempt to increase the drug. Come into being then there was a check first by the city council and then by the people themselves. Now I'm at another disadvantage I can't speak in all of the years that I've been in public option I can't put on paper what I have in life partly why I speak as I think and I think as I speak I cannot pick up paper and claim that I'm distracted. And I want to that I'm not sensitive in the slightest if in the course of. Any member of the board desires to last question I will be very happy not to claim that I've been insulted because possibly it's impossible anyhow to insult a council. What is the theory behind the free market I think I think but perhaps there was a little misunderstanding that they missed. One of. That's a simple thing a man comes in here life with. Friends. And if you're not reading a prepared speech. When a man is reading from a bad speech and we come to a certain point you're not throwing him off very far because every answer the question of us. However of doing that. Is not. With him here we're looking for him my. Hope when this thing is over the no hard feelings with. Me want to do the best we can with the wreck of the each month so that when I like the plane on the. Blank while it might be a novel to get there staring. I believe that that's the only way to approach this proposition What is the talk about a self-sustaining subway fare What is this self-sustaining business does it mean that if after they have increased the fat that. A deficit arises in the future that they'll comment on the say that it's got to be self-sustaining and. Where was a self-sustaining theory ever originated with respect to public facilities they say that the people who use the subways are the ones who should be the owners of real estate say why should we pay the deficit in the subway operation we ride down to our offices and I want a more Beeld we have our shop with we don't utilize the subways Well the answer to that is simple when they write down what are they come from Westchester or come from the streets of the city of New York they're riding on streets and if they ride on the west side highway side highway there right in on highways that have been paid for by the rent payers of the city of New York or indirectly pay the taxes which these people claim they're breeding with because of their ownership of real estate it might be just as stupid for a fellow at the water why should I pay any proportion of the appropriation for the library I have a book at home I never go near the libraries I follow where I asked the question isn't a riding the subway white more than twice that. That's possible. A problem my answer or. I. Send my children to private school why should I say that proportion of the tax which is right for educational. Facilities are furnished by the cities throughout the country and always have been on the basis of the needs in the common good for all of the people I'll ask the question isn't the riding the subway worth more than five cents tritely it is how much is a break it can't be measured how much is an education at City College what. Does anybody top up making those who are trained in city college pays the cost of the individuals education that's ridiculous the education of the individual is a primary concern of the municipality restating the nation and consequently the cost and burden about expense should be borne right all of the people like. God education is a state function. That is great and. Then last year was over at the one million dollars that we got back from the state of New York. Forty six to forty seven although it's just a phone I'll accept that statement not as a correction but as an amendment to what I said I did not say. I did not say Mr been prolix that I said that the ed education is a primary misstep and fall if you listen you may not directly in the field I said that education is I primarily constrain of the people of the city the state and the nation it is the find in the Constitution is a state function but you try and tell that branch upstate that it should be financed and supported by the state of top of the Constitution in the constitution will limit the ten percent of the assessed valuation over the past five years up state they've got a provision specially for them that in cities of less than one hundred thousand population the cost of education shall not be included in the ten percent figure that was a sop to the people of state versus a lot of talk about constitutionality of this prosecution of the event you know we have to listen to these fellows over a period of twenty two years all of my training in law school and at the bar is gone I've got a new definition of one constitutional and opinion on Constitution any time any writing is unconstitutional but that's to come out of the pockets of the real estate interests of the bank and if it falls on the backs of those who can least afford to pay that's Constitution I've heard that argument advanced year in and year out in one thousand nine hundred twenty three we had a situation existed in the city where America the city of New York deal with the pressure from the real estate interest in the bankers and he came in here to cut the tax rate why we do it in the salaries of scrub women and laborers in the study of the law that was a so-called Economy bill they forced but without rhyme or reason. Scrubwoman getting a lot of hundred dollars suffered a lot so that a few points on the tax rate the big drop Oh real estate doesn't gain a thing by that to see if you have to bribe dollars in one pocket in your pocket another pocket Yes still got bribe brought So if you take the seventy five million or the eighty million that you have been juggling around and take it out of the expense project and you're part of then the board of transportation for one you still got the seventy five million but now I know the math tried to get an answer to the question of how much eighty three million minus seventy six million is why can't your million and I know eighty three minus seventy six is seven so I assume it must be seven million dollars seven million dollars will be left if you would prefer the fact the ten cent what a wonderful picture they think subway trains going along what do you watch what you value say this is the one thing that I doubt as hostesses. They almost tempted me missed the mayor while I was listening to change my stand on this matter the picture I paint of what they're going to feel about seven million bucks maybe I hadn't thought about that but in the eyes of the food for the ethanol I was in the wrong one time and all of that is not the fault of the pump but if I may be serious for a moment I just like the fuel you what the situation is the fact that General Growth or they face that said that if we increase the fare they will be available in one thousand nine hundred forty eight an additional four hundred fifteen million dollars in bowling ball only gets if we increase the favorite local of a referendum held us all the information back cannot be put into effect until at least July phrased of nineteen hundred and forty eight. And it will details have to be taken care of train styles various other details now the constitution that if the subways are still sustaining during the preceding year then you may apply to have the debt limit increase So what will happen if your life breaks nine hundred forty eight the family then please go to the West Bank on July place nine hundred forty nine. All a balance of the board of transportation. That's your line nine hundred forty nine go to the controller of the state who will least want until January nineteenth to review a fax and see whether or not the subways are self-made and only until July price nine hundred fifty can you make this four hundred fifty million dollars available when General broker says it will be available to nine hundred forty eight I'd like to have him come here and explain how that could be done while he wants to make one. For the last World War. When you want to I.P.L. in a very anomalous position that are brought that subject up I'm here ransom. And addressing a general I was only a corporal in the last world war but I was a pauper as I told you before in the Marine Corps and probably that's of equal rank. On. Society in general generals and general. If I if I didn't want to prolong this hearing your honor I would say that's a very general statement. But let's get serious about this proposition if you increase the you're going to increase the borrowing capacity of the city by four hundred million dollars. The fact that. You're going to do right without increasing the border you've got to do is have a referendum. Proposing to amend the Constitution. Written sixteen million dollars of bond with your outstanding from the debt limit. Just like your nineteen hundred forty nine the second legislature. Passed submitted to the people in November of one thousand nine hundred forty nine don't change all of that and then you got the same amount of deliberately one hundred percent. Of the same year at the same time without an increase in family outstripping to the goals of the fact. That I want to comment on the bulletin. Board. Of just one moment they talk of the fact that. In the course of the past few years. I want to focus. A set of the other seeds. It's really something that upset me this morning and towards me to be filled with emotion they say that they complained a loaf of bread which used to cost five cents now cost fourteen cents and a quart of milk which used to cost eight cents now cost twenty two cents a pound the part of which formerly cost twenty one for thirty cents now of course seventy to seventy five cents and a pair of shoes formerly costing three dollars and a half now cost seven dollars and I hear they argue that the cause of cost of living has increased the subway fare should be increased I suppose if there really isn't the real estate owners are staggering under the increased cost of milk bread and such an extent that they require relief in every form of reduced taxes brought about by an increased fare for the card to me after I felt sorry for them but the people who ride in the subways also drink milk eat bread and butter and buy shield and they've been stocked during the past ten years why no since taxes in a form of sales taxes which even reach down to the progress of the diapers with the babies in the home where a tax on their telephone bill a tax on their gas bill for all taxes designed for the point this probably seeing the tax on real estate these are say they haven't gotten an increase in that because of the O.P.'s Well that's the point I was waiting for someone to make a statement of that time the O.P.M. must remember only affects residential property residential property that they use one hundred percent rented it's far different from the old days when they figured a certain amount of vacancies and they were so anxious to get tenants that they let the kind of small van with. And the tenants would move out of the end of the two months with the window shades and other things. That day to day they are one hundred percent ready and I don't mean that their expenses are at a minimum. Try and get the paint dry and get them to repair try and get those the brain washing appropriate services necessary for the people who live in the house their expenses at the. Considerably during the period of time that buildings have not been constructed but that's not a part of the picture I'm not going to jump over to get the head of the real estate flood for two hundred million dollars worth of real estate correct me if I'm wrong I believe there's approximately sixteen billion dollars worth of real estate in the city approximately six billion of that wasn't even touched by the you'll be again that's for the hotels the opera's buildings the warehouses the garages nor will it be a restriction on them up to a certain period of time no restriction whatsoever but on my memory isn't what we. Gather with the members of the Board of Estimate a committee of accounts with us in the business men in the city of New York who's read the priest five hundred percent men know what been in business in the law up the league for twenty years or upon the expiration of their lease found that the landlord had rented the property over their heads to somebody who paid quadruple the rent that was paid by this fellow who got those business up there over a period of four years what happened they went up to the legislature then. Pass a law so one of the legislature do the legislature passed the law after they got pleasers ranging from one hundred to one thousand percent on business property in the city in the legislature says Yep without a put a stop to this thing from now on we're going to stop it getting any increase of what we're going to get to fifteen percent additional input over what you've already got why there's an unprecedented wave of prosperity as far as real estate in the city of New York has been. For the previous speakers talk about the fact that less taxes of real estate and were paid in one thousand nine hundred twenty two by when I came into the car and to the board of aldermen in one thousand nine hundred twenty five. Realestate the one in a sense but one of the expense budget eighteen and four percent came out of the general fund in one thousand nine hundred forty six as has been stated only sixty percent of the expense budget was paid by real estate and forty percent came out of the general fund. And dollars and cents and nine hundred forty real estate was taxed four hundred sixty six million seven hundred forty eight thousand dollars and in one thousand nine hundred forty six it was only taxed four hundred twenty eight million approximately forty million dollars less in forty six over forty hours just miracle brought about it was brought about. The actions of the former administration we had of the pressure. Out of Depression and people on employed they needed food they needed clothing and shelter and we had to raise money and emergency taxes were passed a sales tax but at the time saw as I said before our various. Gas bills and the electric bill that money was put into a special welfare plan well as unemployment decreased due to economic conditions as well as the advent of the world long sales tax continued Look on America the city of New York put it into the general fund I want to back me that the people were still paying the taxes designed to help the unemployed in the form and it was being trained into the general fund to lessen the burden of those who were best able to pay it pick up next Bill a lot of people get these tax bills I look at the front of it they never look at the back of it on the back of it as a very clear statement of just exactly where the money comes from to finance the budget. Real estate tax and I have the Bill of one hundred forty one hundred forty six Real Estate Tax four hundred twenty eight million general fund revenue and underneath that they've got sales pari mutuel business you fill up the it's that one hundred twenty one million four hundred fifty thousand dollars which is an outright gift of the real estate at this because it's saddled on the backs of those who can least afford to pay it. Councilman Hyde I see we're in the last administration is now suggesting a penny a raise in the subways granted you see that. I've heard and then you want to how do you feel about that idealist and I feel like well you judges who was an avid supporter sitting here in a place like this of the Fed I feel that it's a poor time for the former mayor of the city of New York to voice an opinion which he didn't have the power of the voice while he had the responsibility for putting it into effect I think it's. I. Think it's pretty cheap tactics to get on a commercial radio program and speak from behind the protection of our microphone instead of having the courage it you'll have to sit here and face the public and decide the issue upon the facts I think that no public official is why you have a sore up for weeks and so most trying of opposites buyers and then ties that tell a successor for me is wrapped in a mess as a result of the order of occasion which he insisted upon how to run the city you are running it OK The streets are clean the day the snow has been removed and it's the first time in freaking years after a snow crawled that the people of the city can travel in safety and business and trucking industry isn't tied up. But I can't help commenting upon a situation that exists. The two percent debt limit has been spoken of here and they tore off one of the sacredness of the Constitution I kept an eye with the Polish Constitution of the United States as well as the Constitution of the state of New York but believe me I did it more emotionally when I took the oath to support the Constitution of the United States applause actually expresses the will of the people the Constitution of the state of New York as a doctrine which is devoid of any regard for human rights these forces that come before you today went up and had written into the Constitution a provision limiting the city of New York to a tax levy equal to two percent of the assessed valuation and the minute we elect delegates to a constitutional convention to write a constitution what's that constitution given Fane sacred safeguards of human rights so they get up there and they place a limitation on the touching fire of a city with respect to real estate no such great consignee was manifested by these delegates to the constitutional convention among whom was Mr Reagan when it came to limiting the taxing power of the study with respect to taxing those who don't own real estate there's no limit upon the nuisance factors which can be inflicted upon the people who do not own real estate as is evidenced by this ever mounting force which last year reached one hundred twenty one million four hundred fifty thousand dollars distributed among the four of the people who aren't even recognized in the Constitution by way of limitation Well we have a government some argue that it's a government of laws and some argue that as a government of men the governor of the state of New York has been very very sweet and buying these and mean Mr Mann to give you a power to tax the people of the city of New York a little more he's willing to broaden your tax dollars he says the state has problems of its own. He's sitting up there on a fact surplus of six hundred million dollars trying to increase his stature brought future years big years vary some say sixty five and some say seventy percent of all taxes raised by the state come from the taxpayers of the city of New York that six hundred million dollars is there whether it's sixty five percent or seventy percent which came from the city of New York makes no difference but there's one thing that I can understand and that's the statements in the annual letter to the governor and I'd like you to listen to it the full as it may be useful when you go to Walden the on. Says the governor in his annual message float around in his message to the legislature quote I have already said in my annual message that we face a dilemma we are hard pressed to repay and reconstruct and build a new state facility we have to balance these pressing needs against the pole reality of construction delays material shortages and high prices I want you to close your eyes for just a moment visualize this odd press on and all of the difficulty he got and then he goes on and he says this quote The fifty percent reduction in the fighting the low income tax and the removal of the emergency twenty five percent of the proper ration franchise tax and a reduction of the same amount of the unincorporated business tax a fact that for this year our continued. In other words he is a hard pressed Governor who doesn't know what he's going to do over money and he cuts the taxes on the people that are best able to afford to pay it the income tax and the corporation tax and then at the showing showing our hard pressed the is the sympathizes with the city and he says quote It is proper that the world prayer of the local government should be a prime constraint of the state was broke and many hastens to add quote They must never be used to take care of unique to it situation back to to the one locality I'll give you two guesses as to what one locality even means that one locality is arms out of a New York City and it characterizes our need vaccinate their hand the operation of a chance of just amused by seven million people every day is unique to him the operations of this present commission system which is your sick and brave people torn from their wake and their children to and from school and their families torn from the shopping's that is unique but then what happened the hard pressed government and most of the proposed construction of the full weight of the yelps up state I don't know estimated cost of two hundred two million dollars to be paid for from the state's star plus at least sixty five percent of which came from New York City a forest esper way is not unique it's not located in New York City it's probably not unique the far as it will be used may need my pleasure she is a good as the fingers from the subway system which is absolutely indispensable to the welfare and existence of the eight million inhabitants of the city of New York these gentlemen who came here today representing the real estate interests are in the wrong. And I worry if you are here as long as I in city hall you wouldn't have been as naive as you are inviting these fellows to blow up the walls and. They'll only go up to Albany. And that's where the pipes up presiding the best good right what you've been put into that constituted by the real estate it was that guaranteed them. City of New York will be placed in the hand felt by its inability to properly in fact what it means that they talk of confiscatory tax rates I'd like to give you the tax rates in some of the leading cities throughout the country but anyway the tax rate of your product and of for it and in Los Angeles are considerably in excess of the tax rate paid by the real estate interests in the city of New York this is not a field day. I don't spam here with any feeling of placement pride I promised the man I'm a very poor community I come from that section of Brooklyn which is known as well and I've seen the people going to work day in and day out on far haven't you five cents doesn't mean much it means a lot of the fellow who stands behind the push of a fine but condo in the little store working fourteen hours a day five cents may not seem an awful lot of these individuals but when you figure that the assessed valuation of Rockefeller Center is a Fox the young hundred million dollars And by the increase in fair that alone will benefit to the extent their four hundred and seventy thousand dollars in tax. Reduction and a lot of the people were like them to look at and. Any thought of official who would ever even considering consider raising their red dealing with end of it one of these people coming down here talking about the small home owner for in the benefit of the public light is as like I'm down here from Cornell University and show such consigned to the people who are riding in the subways and how sick they are that they change that tactic stuff then but the specter of their admission practices they might have that doctors would and they be unable to treat these people will become ill people don't become ill the thoughts of the fact that they lie in a subway they become ill because of the fact that in times of stress there are no Norrish they're deprived of the necessities of life this is in the city of night and steal it is in the city of buildings it is now a city of large corporations it's a city of approximately eight million people from which you sprang most of them in your patrol the streets of LA city to enforce the law and you sat not watch and presided over the trials of those who were accused of violation as Lady used in the district attorney's office and five to give it to the violated and now as mayor of the city of New York you have been enriched to what extent that no one who spoke to you has been in which the matter was spoken to you for the most part a mental of only seen one side of life and that side of life isn't shone upon by the sun it shone upon by the Palestine it shone upon not by the hardship and probation which you are but this in your various careers throughout the course of your life in this country. It's simply selfishness and greed that actuates these individuals that say to you we want you to make not as a gift eighty million dollars and we don't want you to make the gift placement only be we want you to tell the people right on the subway to make that gift to it that's all it is it's simply saying to the real estate at this all right your right from now on you pay eighty million dollars less in taxes and the public pays eighty million dollars more unfair and I'm sure that's the message that that is understandable not only by the man on the speed of the flight fourteen years of the but it's understandable even by the selfish real estate if this will have come down here for the fight best for the ring and advocating the forces of the clients and organizations that they represent I wish you success in your trip to love and I would like to join I would like to have the opportunity of being up there and putting up a fight however futile it may be for the rights of the eight million people but we live downstate because I do not know of any for vision and the state constitution which permits and up state legislature that dominate the people downstate to the extent that they have to go around thinking with their hat in their hand for the means of subsets let's not talk about a self-sustaining subway Let's talk about helping the average American citizen a little bit to become self-sustaining don't prevent him from becoming self-sustaining by taxing him on this and actually I'm on that and then actually improve on the God given right to vote away. Let's have government as we should happen let's have government by the majority and the people of the city even if you are a majority of the population of the state of New York they'd kill you remember they are members of the Board of Estimate that they are well thought out and I know what the conclusion of these. Speak for them and speak for them in fantasy frankness and honest and that the only decision that can possibly be arrived at is the state of the real estate interests you have gathering and the property from your real estate paid for that's what made them profit a. Bit of green. General promise. Met. By. The chairman of the. Public service the chamber here I think he's still here. I've had a memorandum to get some facts hoping it would be convincing but I sat there all morning and listened to Lang I think practically everything I had in my memorandum. Mentioned either by Mr one. Of like on a regular but I'm not going to boil you with repeating everything that you have already heard that you have enough bad with time without that but I would like to read. The Chamber of Commerce passed only last Thursday on this fast situation. Whereas current indications are that the New York city's budget for the coming year. Will show a deficit of approximately eighty million dollars. And whereas most of this deficit represents the amount by which the city's subways fail to pay their own way seventy five million five hundred thousand and where I asked is self evident they have thought that the crucial reason for the deficit is the fact that the subways are not being financed on a sound basis and whereas each year physical conditions on the subway are growing worse and the continued postponement of unnecessary renewals and improvements increase the risk of serious accidents and catastrophes Now that fall the end result of the chamber the Comus of the state and the urges the city administration to recognize that the present financial difficulties and the prospective deficits in the budget trace spoke directly to the failure of the subways to pay their own way. And resolve the administration the urge for swear to take appropriate action to put the subway system on a self-sustaining basis at the earliest possible moment and gentle marriage and not as a matter of whether the real estate interests say at I'm sure that we all realize that whatever comes off the real estate taxes in the way of subways the city has sadly now than many other ways so that the real estate tax itself will go down. And I urge you to give serious consideration to the situation. Got another copy of. Mrs. Munt the New York generation. And member of the board of that in the. To be. Free nor for the boy fourteen years old. Well the New York City. Club. Memberships. Two hundred. All. With a New York. Resolution which was. A savior. For years including. And has currently reached the new high. Forty eight dollars forty five forty six. Where. Only. Require immediate expenditure. Services. Maintenance costs. Ordinary operating costs. Where there is a. Service of. Seven hundred sixty nine two hundred dollars as incorporated in the mayor's budget for forty forty seven. For. The New York City. Incorporated in convention. May third nineteen forty six recommendations to the board of S. That's. Our mission action for our. City subway. Organization not only. The Federation one. Thirty five member they are interested in the you didn't freeze in the subway fare in order that. May go to. Me. To. Another Brown. Federation. Daughters are going to work. In a crowded subway. When. Word that their mothers are fearful for them therefore we would like. Longer platform. Or six and. Seven way. Is that. Women. Children are grown. Up way and we would like to be able to run. Health. Cars which we. Under our present system I don't. Have any. I haven't come here for anything other than for the good. Which I love and I am an American and I should like to see the border they. Consider very very serious. Dr Bell at the. Subway. The. Heart of this government because we. Have demand budget. And a nation if we do not make every. Good and. Petition you and the council one. And did it right and we in that way. With France with clothing with perhaps with food and everything else that must be a limit which no matter what our desires may be along those lines and large numbers of the I am one of those fellows. Down in Brownsville even though I don't live in Brownsville I think I have to know something about the city of New York and I don't go the streets through the streets of my motor car I use the subways day in and day out I was born in the city and I was raised in a tenement in a slum if you please I think I know something of the problems that have grown up in the city of New York. Heart I probably occupy an analogous position with respect of being and not the oldest but one of the oldest and point of service respect for the taxpayers who made the distinction that he represented the elected official I just want to make one other observation I don't want to bore you with the reputation of many of the arguments that have been presented I think very clearly you know exactly what's in my mind which was in the mind that very able to be expressed by both Mr windows and Colonel Riggleman and others who spoke for the sustaining there I want to. Just briefly if you can recollect this the mayor that far the part of this that you know the remarks made by Henry EPSTEIN If you'll recall and Epstein appointed him. The champion of fifteen million right I didn't ask Henry to represent me and I'm a taxpayer and I'm a writer in the subway as are frankly everybody in this room. And I not like my calling him ten right although I don't mind anybody calling me go north I'm not you. Mayor I want you to understand that I'm a gentleman of all time was invited the the I've been before this too many times the risk that they think that he made a guest respect to late constitutional meant I believe that councilman a lot of heart repeated that suggest honestly Mayor I'd like to make a bargain little boy appreciate the fact that I'm fine in the city of New York with respect to any amount of that which turns right by Lyndon Horton. Proposition of this time I would say to Mr Epstein try and get your constitutional amendment Well I'm not a betting man I would like to bet right now that that constitutional amendment will have a go through. If you will that Henry Epstein said to this board I know the situation is what it is I know that my clients he had appointed themselves the spokesman will not get any relief I believe that the constitutional amendment will solve the whole proposition I miss the mayor this is the point my friend laid off and I offer it only in the spirit of not being facetious but as a possible solution to this situation are proponents for an increased self-sustaining fair. I will not press the point and I'm sure that they will die before that when I say that I'm quite sure that they will agree with or and self-sustaining. If you can get that constitutional amendment through which would relieve the city of New York of the connection with the operation of the Francis of rights so. Let's make a little of both ways not simply one way. It's a little unfair on my part to believe I'm betting on the floor that would you Mr Mayor and your estimable colleagues be willing. In the event that you are unable to obtain the constitutional amendment I thought that you as a child yes I mean listen. I don't give you an answer to. That and that will and. Main financial problems now. Thank. You very. Much. Maybe. The surprise. Or not. And we stand again on the premise that whatever the difference may be that is indicative of what the city of New York can do with respect to many of them very much the mayor that I've been here for a great many years and which I have advocated many of the improvements and there are. Some who remember me up. Where we have not hesitated at any time. Expressed. On the part of our group with respect. I don't think that the battle here is a question this has been raised and I hope. In your minds because it isn't true that the. Leave it. Here today. Between people who are. Right in the final analysis. I think it's a matter of. Right and direct and honest economics on the part of the. Situation which is faced with a situation and can avail itself of it if it wishes to fire the expedient of the self-sustaining. Thank you must let. You know. I am on. You want to be. More money no I don't think it's. My do not. Make let me ask you this you've been here for many years. You know all about out financial structure now I'm still a neophyte like you know you know after all these years of marriage that the city of New York could never have a surplus and there are present methods you know that yes yes I can understand all right you know we have a different situation than they have in the state of New York we can only raise a certain amount by taxes or we can only have a budget up with said limit the cost of that limitation and if we underestimated general forms one year which immediately reflected in the next year's budget you know that that we can never have a surplus you know that all of the country the state of New York they can raise. Seven hundred million dollars in taxes there are no limitations and if they spend five hundred million they have a two hundred million dollars surplus you know that early and they can repeat the operation year in and year out as they did in built up to six hundred million dollars That's correct. Now you know you're not. From an economical and a mathematical basis that the increase of attention of the subway to ten cents doesn't bring an extra dollar into the city treasury you know that. Well it does that with respect to what it will do to relieve the situation and that's a natural at it and I don't want to go step by step all right it's a financial problem you'll agree to that I'm asking you a question do you know that it doesn't bring an extra five cent into the study you know that well I'm not ready to. Let me explain it maybe I can convince you of a very happy here if you have. An eight hundred million dollars budget without a ten cent that you're not the tax writers are right that you know that every place now if you have their out of million dollars budget and you have the bat. The transportation system can take care of the fifty seven million dollars debt service of so kind it's not and they can also take care of the eighty million dollars which is the employees that they gave for the plan to work is that correct that's exactly seventy five million now that happens my budget is not eight hundred million anymore you take off seventy five from my budget do you not you have seven hundred twenty five left that correct I when I collect taxes I can only collect seven hundred twenty five rather than eight hundred million is that correct All right so you take out of the budget seventy five million and you take out of your receipts seventy five minute is not correct so the net result is that it does not bring one extra nickel into the city treasury is that correct. Are you asking me much to cut it all I'm going to stop beating my wife. And not a not it's not borrowing power at all I'm not talking about what you've got to can I get rid of mine and probably I'll go into that provided you give me the answer to your No there's only one obvious and I'll concede up to the eyes and point let me know what the rest of your own you concede that is yes go ahead it doesn't bring in an extra dollar now what is the immediate effect of the increased subway fare it takes seventy five million dollars out of your general budget that's correct and naturally and automatically whether Joseph is to control or your victims I wish you had that it got a bit. Joe that seventy five million dollars is taken off the shoulders of real estate is that correct. So you get a reduction. Of attacks by the seventy five and sixty I don't make a meal of that formula by law so you get a reduction of nearly. Forty points that's right I don't know I. Seventy five whatever it is. Many variable for addiction. I will not get on the basis of your present mathematics I'll concede that. The real estate taxes drop body point whatever it is sixteen of the seventy five. Yes but it's a drop from the. Talking about. Talking now if we had an eight hundred million dollars budget don't let's go back. I want to turn to something but. Nobody is going to mislead I'm not trying to make anybody who knows I. Don't know I don't know you are going to do that. Now what happened was simply take out of your budget the seventy five million dollars automatically the tax rate dropped and it dropped to the extent of seventy five divided by six billion in the assessed valuation of real estate to live that now you've got to make up to seventy five million somewhere that's made up by the subway writer. Director Is that correct let me have my question again. Would you mind repeating the question I say when you drop the tax rate. Totaling seventy five million dollars you've got to seventy five million will be paid by the subway writer director. And we all agreed I don't think anybody. To take care of the. Seven. Million dollars. Even if. You have a million dollars left. Because we appropriated sixty million and one. Hundred Million. Have been to take. Your proposition that if you have a very nobody's convinced me that ten cents will make it. Five million dollars which is subject to the debt limit and take it out of the debt limit. Is that what you're driving at. A minimum of two hundred dollars borrowing. And what my height of. The riding public is. Don't you believe that. Based upon your own. Measure I don't know whether. The hard indicated and I think that he probably drew a very heavy on the. Proposition but it seems to me that the writing public isn't competent release assuming for the sake of argument at the moment everything true but. I question your. That that eight million dollars will do nothing. About eight million dollars and I believe that it's a lot less help the city of New York to affect. Byron agree more.