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And now W.N. ride CD baby birds and city close up each week at this time see more and say Go and abuse people in the public eye on issues of current interest today Mr Siegel's guest is Mrs Frederick B. Payne chairman of the board of directors of the commission for recording for the blind and cooperated and now here is Mr SIEGEL How do you do it isn't out a little welcome to sitting close up with potentially delighted to have as I guest on this edition of city close out this is Frederick Payne the chairman of the board of directors of recording for the blind eye and say Barbara what is the recording for the blind where we recorded educational books upon request for college students. And adults too I mean people who are in legal professions medicine and things like that when I know how to how to recording for the Blind get started well in one thousand nine hundred forty six this is Ronald McDonald who headed a committee of women who thought that they would start doing educational books for G.I. who want to take advantage of the Bill of Rights and go to college and this garage who was sightless Yes who are cyclists and this turned out to be such a success that it was then incorporated in one nine hundred fifty one and we have grown and grown as you know since then at that time we just did records on sound scriber and now there are. Embossed discs to cross is a great improvement why is this program so important to you personally Well I think it's so exciting to take the blind and help educate them they have a terrible time you know if they do make the struggle to go through college to get readers they have to depend upon them. And once you're in college you can no longer really depend upon your family to read and this gives them a great Independence how many books do you record in the course of a year well. Last year we did one thousand eight hundred titles and about twenty five thousand copies when are there certain books that are used by everybody in other words classics includes a list sort of yes that's why you see one thousand eight hundred titles we did twenty five thousand copies on the whole we do about six copies of each book that are requested if it's a very obscure or a book we'll need to three and then of course put into a regular library. Where any student can use it at any time he wishes. We have now forty five thousand titles which is unique in the world I think of educational books for the blind when the Who selects the books the student I mean this is a kind of a custom Oh yes this is I definitely a custom job the student writes to us and we hope always early so it gives us a good month to do the books in August or September and tells us what he needs for his coming courses and then we have people who read these books now it's mathematics we have a unit in Oakridge and they're all the scientists read the scientific books for I'm a mother sitting in my front to have a clipping here from Time magazine Well not so long ago with. As an indication that our grudges a team of five look at your son just the recorded so-called tough test texts in other words requires an expert really to be able to read these books of those scientific books and in a meaningful way as a novel and that's why as a matter of fact we had rather amusing thing happened the other day we have an extraordinary boy called Slade go who graduated with the highest marks of anybody from MIT in the last ten years and when we did all of his books throughout school and the other day we got a notice from Oak Ridge to tell Slagle to slow down they no longer know what he's talking about. So this exciting he now has as he worked at MIT after he graduated now he has his own laboratory where now is this service free to the Student Yes completely free will you get your support from well about a third of my support comes from foundations and the rest from individuals. What sort of a budget do you have in the course of a year the budget now is about four hundred fifteen thousand. Unfortunately it keeps rising every year unlike business when you're successful you make money but the more successful we are the more it seems to cost us and the service is free to the blind students. Who read your material do they get paid for example do the scientists. Oh no no no you couldn't possibly support it then we have fifty in staff and we have about twenty five hundred volunteers and if we had to pay the volunteers. When you go into millions of dollars it couldn't possibly be done one of our lives brought them to selective them Lou they just. Volunteer their services or do they really well and let me hear their services they are then given a reading test and there is a panel that passes on that voice and we take about seventy five hundred tests a year and we pass about half of them which is more important the quality of the voice or the intelligence of the individual with regard to the subject it's a combination of both oddly enough actors very seldom make good readers no matter how intelligent they are because they reply will erode to the ego a burden well like if they did they rather like a dull reading any kind of person or anything like that seems to throw the the blind student he wants just straight reading. Is this or more effect a ride with the other side Braille A Well it's a much more effective it's much quicker and that would to have a the textbooks in Braille would cover. Oh and amply this room. When I sit here that you've got the titles of books such as a linear operators in the scenario the enter grow and introduction to abstract the Monica analysis you know what I mean no I don't know the question I have for you is can blind scholars blind students easily absorb material through the first. Take a listen I just played it stated Mr Slagle at this point that we're doing these books for happens to be a boy who is in brown now and taking a three year cellar ated course and is a brilliant student brilliant. Had there been many outstanding brilliant students that you recall. On the whole they are brilliant those who make the effort to go to college really feel they have something to offer we had an awful lot of five by a capital higher higher percentage than the sighted person because there are far fewer going colleges to how many blind students would you say are going to colleges in this country and we had about a thousand I think students and I lose you have not identified all these are just a thousand that make use of recording for the blind as they are about a thousand I doubt that there are many more than that level home or in the school because about seventeen thousand and elementary school and high school there's a calling for the blind has high school students as well that's why we've had to expand because we want to and only on very rare cases that we do it we found that we just were doing everything we could be couldn't take on anymore work we just didn't have the facilities I hope now that we will. What about graduate students to tell us about that's the thing you see is that we usually carry our students on straight through life just to slag a little it's still a old lawyers who went to law school we still read their law books for them congressional record we read for them that they wanted what about federal support for this October was in our program many many years ago called Talking Books one of the Congress in the Library of Congress under oath this all of course i still is in the talking book is. Invaluable to the blind and that of course is they they will give you a machine if you're legally blind and then you can get any book that you wish from the Library of Congress but those are mainly novels you say they're very few educational books liberal discussion of any federal support for recording for the blind or don't you want it I don't really think we wanted if we if we grow to where we can support ourselves then we might have to request it. Would you say that if you had additional funds you could expand considerably or was the field relatively limited Oh no no no because once we could get into the elementary school in the high school there's no end where we could expand. Can use were wrong to readers Oh yes we definitely need more readers and particularly monetize You see we've gone into a new system now which makes our books ever so much better than they were about two years ago now a person goes into a booth and reads and there is a monitor there so that the put read it doesn't have to word worry about making mistakes be stopped automatically thing makes a mistake and then goes back and clear the tape and start over again and it's approved the quality of our books a great deal so we need Nonna to very very badly and readers what a monitor is do the monitor has another book outside the booth and check for errors. Other words. Very hard to read without making an error do now and you don't even realize it yourself. Of names to the first. Readers looked at the book was really preparation know that the first time they get there earlier they can pick up the book and with some of the conscientious readers do like to do and look at it now or earlier but otherwise they read cold. This is just first sight reading or could come now. A demand letter say on occasion for the same book by several students in the same area Oh yes often that happens and what do you do just well that's when we that's why we make it in. Usually as I say six copies so then one of the six copies go to that student. Is a difficult to keep up with the state of the art so to speak in other words with the early output of where we're textbooks. Do you find this difficult to keep this going not really because that's up to the student to say to just send us what book he needs and if it's a if it's a brand new book. Then we record it I'm amazed that one and the elementary school how many different books there are I thought that that was more or less one set book on a rift the tech one on history but not at all each teacher has its own idea of what book it should do is. Do you have any demand for this material on the part of people who are good those who can read write or rob or would like to have let's say they learn better by hearing them by reading we get requests like that but of course we can't get the books unless they are legally blind what constitutes legal blindness I've never been exactly sure what it is it's practically no vision I know that just what the county is I don't now. We have discovered on our radio stations who are good people are tremendously interested in listening to recorded literature and I just wondered whether or not any of the materials that when I knew that we would review what about that was that that is available to anyone that's the only thing we charge for there is a ten dollar a year charge for that. For anybody who wants it and Pa dollars a year. For students what sort of a services that is we record every Saturday night the news that we can review and this is from The New York Times that's right and then it is rushed to Bridgeport where a pressed record is made which is of course a far better than our in Boston and then shipped out on Monday morning and people get it anywhere from Tuesday to Wednesday and it then it also goes to all sorts of organizations free like the White House and places like that in that they they they play it for whoever wants to listen to it and you get complete cooperation from publications and otherwise or you have to worry about clearing right now now with that shadow of a settled law and ago so we really don't have a problem there are you involved really was copyright law or. Any attention to us I just don't know. Now Mrs Plame you won't tell us a bit about this new building though that. You recently elected the new building up on East fifty eighth Street that's right color summer for the education for the blown right you want to tell us a little bit of. Well for many years thanks to the generosity of the New York library we had space in three different libraries this is the New York public growing up public library yes we had one in Harlem which we where we put our books we had another studio on ninety six Street where we read the books and another in fifty eighth Street which was the general offices and where we did the embossing Well needless to say this not very efficient when you're running three different places and as I said before we really felt that we had to expand we couldn't do all that we should so the board of directors just set out to to find a building and then try to finance it across which is not too easy. And we have just moved the end about two weeks ago and it's going to going to make a world of habit now that is going to make a world of difference because they are on the bottom for you have your library and then the upstairs a record the book The readers are all in the same place the offices are all in the same place do you recall any current literature numbers you indicated that you record the news of the week from the New York Times or about the best variety or magazine articles now we don't do any of those s'posed demand for the sort of thing for students would you provide them with what DO IT chat if they're talking book hasn't already done it and of course read it digest do their own brought they do record their own books there's a charge for that but it is available. What sort of expansion the you have in mind the word where you go from here we go into the high school next I help. This with what double triple output What would you guess like I hope it only doubles that at the moment but there's no there's no way and where it can go there really isn't poverty but we can turn out to let down the people we have already that box for us and we can take it easier on the high school level we won't do everything that everybody wants you want total bill about your board of directors and we have one of the most wonderful Board New York I think because. I can truthfully say that ninety five percent of them are all hard workers. Each has a different feel some good fun might raising some run like John Mason is good at letter writing and appeals. Others are good on publicist but it is a working board Well not actually get involved with the reading. Another way they were quite a few that did it one time and as far as I know it's only Mrs who does at the moment who is an actual reader do you do any reading yourself now I've never done a reading. When I was taught to read down the page instead across so unfortunately I have that leave out every fourth word when reading about the Japanese. I've often wondered why they ever started just taught to read a paragraph at a time which is all very fine for fast reading but not very good for read aloud. Do you look forward to any kind of automatic operation of this. Now the near and not in the near future now. Really takes people takes people around me friendships created between the student and the reader Oh no we try to avoid that occasionally Why well occasionally that some reader would get so emotional about some little student that he was reading for and start talking to him in the in the middle of a record very disconcerting if you're trying to study. To the readers do anything more than just merely read the exact text that you're going to sort of summaries or reveal that sort not message text because for it. We do have raised line drawings too which is a new thing in the last two years which is very helpful tell us about this is this is a step it's like braille but it if there's a complicated chart or anything then we have a brain like formation which they they can follow and get far more than trying to read charts or reading charts or graphs are very hard to do allow. The reader call attention to these charts or these rose charges it goes you know it goes right in with the book and it's and it's number chart one two or three in Braille you say and when the student needs his top he just has it right there to help him now you've gotten a tremendous amount of support from presidents of the United States. President Johnson gave the recording for the blind educational awards last spring certainly did one of the basis of these awards Well some time ago we were so impressed by the grades of all the students we thought that the board thought that they would like to contribute a certain amount of money each year to give to four students who were outstanding and then at that time asked President Eisenhower if he would present these awards. And he very graciously did it for two years then. President Kennedy did it the one year he was in office Needless to say he won all the hearts of the students and then of course Mr Johnson did it last year. And this of course has a great deal to do work in public awareness of the work you're doing yes it has that IT course it does I'm going to the deal of publicity from it and but but mainly it's quite a thrill for these blind students eight to now they've graduated with these high honor and. Then naturally to get an award is always appealing but then that's very exciting for them to go to the White House and have the president give it to them those who do something for anybody. Bob you've got a catalog recording for the blind you want to just leave through that a button Tell us a little bit about the various topics and what's available I presume you also publish a catalogue and Breville or something don't you. Know not in Braille because that's just taken for granted anybody can read to them whatever they might want to say however are there is Braille laying on the desk so that they know which which desk they have done a father because they can identify the desk. Well just what subjects are covered Well now here is American health series engineering drawing and geometry elements of radio guide through the romantic movement the life of Samuel Johnson the United States and Canada history the United States history of Latin America learning German Incidentally the Blind also become very good linguists. They're doing. A special. Develop qualification for the US I don't know what it is but we now have a trial in high school. That we're helping she's completely bilingual in German Portuguese and Spanish at about the age of fourteen and has no background of this at all and her teacher says it's steps a phenomenal. S'posed people want to volunteer as readers for recording for the Blind What do they do just push that call plaza one await plaza one oh wait six Oh yes and I was here in New York so that's right they just passed talk to Mr Carter or explained their problem to the telephone operator Incidentally our telephone operator is blind at the. At the new center and on the basis of this arrangement could be people who would like to read to us or just write to two hundred fifteen street and two one five East fifty eighth Street here in New York City Well now tell us a little bit more about. This material made available to people outside of the United States not so far I don't have and I don't even me when I'm not even sure I had requests we've had various people from various countries come in and look at the organisation and see how it is operated and we've And we've thought often of moving outside of the United States but as I say up to now we have been able to do anything more than we. We have been doing how did you get away from serving justice able to serving the general public and it just grew. And. The G.I.'s would tell somebody about it and then other blind students would come in or write and ask if we could help them to. And now of course it's very well known in all colleges and the professors know about us and often advise their students to get in touch with us do you do anything in connection with. The problems of the blind side of providing them with recordings of work. Do you work closely with other world leaders ations of the concern with problems of the subtlest of the Library of Congress we do but aside from that week we're naturally interested in their problems I hope they're interested in ours but there's no real reason for contact What's your relationship with the Library of Congress well they've been very interested in this in the beginning they. For instance we do very few novels now you say but if we get it if we get a request from a student in an English course and obviously there are certain novels we always check with the Library of Congress if they have them them and then we were fair to the student to the Library of Congress and Mr Bray who's head of the Library of Congress has been very very helpful to us throughout our career he's always available for advice. Do you feel it to serve the needs of blind college students exclusively or a supplementary service which can be prepared and planned ahead of time or do. Students necessarily have to have somebody who's going to be immediately available to read to them at the institution well they shouldn't if they have these books because they are the books hard to make a play them at any time they want. But you say that you would like to have a notice from the students is the requirement how far the new doubt and if and if you don't it's the it's the professor's fault who doesn't cooperate or who doesn't know until class starts which textbook he's going to use but if they do know then they always send the books in to us and when we record them say How rapidly can you provide service it takes about a month to do a book see there's usually twenty four hours of reading on a book but now we can send that out piecemeal if it's an emergency we prefer not to we prefer to actually send the whole book but if it's if it's an emergency we send it out piecemeal you say it takes a whole month this means that the reader comes in just for an hour at a time or something like that and that's just about we figure about a month that can be done as I say an emergency basis quicker Well I've always readings quite a bit of reading you know I can understand that but the other really reduce that would do two or three hours of the time we have summary to yes but after that voice gives out pretty much and it's it's difficult to read really more than an hour. And on that basis they come back and it's not always one person who does the same book or in other words you may have several readers on a book or doesn't affect the learning process from somewhere or other it seems to me it would but apparently doesn't make any difference they never stop mid chapter or anything like that they'll always go on to finish the top. Of the really count of learn from the summer and some smooth nine hundred forty six. I mean shouldn't do I'm certain don't. Know I don't really think so I mean it's just better and better reading and that that's the only thing that you can offer it's pretty cut and dried now. Well you say pretty cut and dried it's still a tremendously exciting kind of an operation from. The end product but yes the end product is exciting it's not terribly exciting for the reader now it's this this is this is heavy stuff they're reading. To people. Generally when they volunteer for the sort of work. Some do any comments as to what their reactions on till now but once you get it once a reader is accepted you will find that nothing would take them away from it they love it they really are still the readers who started way back to mention Yes we do and we recheck them because all readers are apt to get careless we and about two years ago we eliminated a great many readers who we found it gotten careless and I got off and got a telephone call so the husbands would say you can't do this to my wife you don't know so we give them another test and. Many cases accepted them back do you ever get complaints from your users not enough you would like to yeah some place we send out cards often asking what's what's wrong with the book but. They write many many letters telling you what's good about the book but I often feel not enough about what's wrong but I suppose they feel that at least find volunteers are doing it for them and they shouldn't complain but you're right just to get constructive criticism yes. Well this is paying less half hours going by altogether too rapidly but they sent me by like rightful the publisher how do you as a guest on set a close up recording for the blind is located at. One hundred twenty one East fifty eight straight and the telephone numbers plaza one hour wait six hours Anybody want to volunteer anybody want to send a contribution I'm sure this will be by walking We'll see you all again next week. Channel thirty one as presented city close up our weekly series of interviews and with Seymour and see go interviews people in the public eye today Mr Siegel's guest was Mrs Frederick B. Payne chairman of the board of directors for recording for the blind incorporated graphics by Santa Rosa City cause it was directed by John band.