Brooklyn Braces for 2nd Wave (and Shutdowns)

Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. The president tweeted this morning, "We are learning to live with the virus." That says more than 700 Americans are dying from the virus every day during the last week. That's 5,000 more dead Americans just since last Tuesday, the night of the debate where an infected Melania Trump refused to wear a mask in the audience. It's 7,000 dead Americans since the Amy Coney Barrett unveiling at the White House, now seen as a super spreader event, but the president last night spun the virus as something that can make you stronger and feel 20 years younger.

President Donald Trump: I didn't feel so good. Two days ago, I could have left two days ago, two days ago, I felt great, better than I have in a long time. I said just recently, better than 20 years ago.

Brian: The fountain of COVID youth. He came home from the hospital with no shame about setting up these events that would eventually spread the disease.

He caused his press secretary to get it, his campaign manager to get it, his wife to get it, his very loyal aide, Hope Hicks, to get it, his most loyal aide ever, Kellyanne Conway to get it, three Republican senators on the judiciary committee to get it, and on and on, as he returns to the White House and tears off his mask triumphantly like he just won a war and says, "Don't be afraid of COVID," while half the people around him have now been infected just to make them look strong, as his friend Chris Christie lies in the hospital, and while, oh, by the way, more than 700 Americans a day died of the disease in the last week, and that's ongoing. Nothing to see here, nothing to be afraid of.

I have to wonder, is it any coincidence that it's some of the most pro-Trump zip codes in New York that are having spikes right now, that have led to schools and perhaps later to nonessential businesses being reshut down or that the State of New Jersey is now engaged in a big contact tracing effort for the hundreds of people Trump exposed at his Bedminster resort when he had reason to believe he was contagious already last Thursday, "Rip off your masks, folks, like the contagious president did at the White House last night," as he walked into a room with other people.

"Liberate yourselves. Don't be afraid of COVID." That's one preexisting political condition as New York City closing schools today and nine Brooklyn and Queen zip codes and consider shutting nonessential businesses. Governor Cuomo yesterday sent a very different message than the president directly addressing the Haredi or strictly Orthodox Jewish communities at the center of the New York outbreak.

Governor Cuomo: We know mass gatherings are the super spreader events. We know there have been mass gatherings going on in concert with religious institutions in these communities for weeks, for weeks. I don't mean little violations. You're only supposed to have 50. They had 55. I'm talking about, you're only supposed to have 50 outdoors. They had 1,000. These are pictures from the past couple of weeks and these are just emblematic. You've all seen pictures like this for weeks. What did you think was going to happen?

Brian: Governor Cuomo yesterday, working to stop people from getting the virus. By the way, I know, at first, they used a picture of a big strictly Orthodox crowd from 2006. That was bad. They swapped it out in real-time for a more recent one, but still, the governor's message is very different from President Trump yesterday, literally encouraging people to get the virus.

President Trump: Don't be afraid of it. You're going to beat it. We have the best medical equipment, we have the best medicines, all developed recently, and you're going to beat it.

Brian: "You're going to beat it." Tell that to the 5,000 Americans who didn't beat it in the last week, or the estimated 700 who will die from it today and the 700 who will die from it tomorrow and the 700 who will die from it on Thursday and on, if the rate of the last week's persists. We'll do the national and New Jersey angle second today and start right now with New York. My guest is Brooklyn Borough President Eric Adams. Borough president, thanks for coming on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Eric Adams: Thank you, Brian. It's always a pleasure speaking with you.

Brian: Give us the state of the coronavirus in the borough, as you see it.

Mr. Adams: It's alarming and it's truly concerning to see what is happening really on a national level and at the heart of the response that you see across the city, and Brooklyn specifically, is the mixed message that's coming from really the president of the United States. How irresponsible it is to sin out this tone and narrative that is so easy to beat it.

It's clear he has the best hospital care across probably entire planet, but that's not a reality in the community that I represent here in Brooklyn and that many of the inner cities across the country. I think that the governor and the mayor, they're taking responsible steps to identify those nine hotspots of looking at closing schools because we need to protect our children, and also looking at how do we address the issues around houses of worship as well as our businesses.

Coronavirus is a formidable opponent, and the way it strikes one human being could be different on how it strikes another. If we don't modify our response based on the changing patterns, more Americans and more New Yorkers will either die or receive this virus and have to deal with long-term health issues.

Brian: The governor in that clip was speaking directly to the Haredi or strictly Orthodox communities of the city. Can you say to what degree the new outbreak is coming from within those communities in Brooklyn and to what degree it's not?

Mr. Adams: I believe the response to this virus, government has a responsibility, and everyday in New York, we have personal responsibilities. It is imperative that as the governor pointed out, we can't have these large gatherings, but these large gatherings are not only in the Orthodox community. As I move around the city and borough, I am seeing far too many Americans and New Yorkers who are becoming too lax around not wearing face-covering really in large crowds, socializing, believe is that COVID-19 is in our rear-view mirror. That is not true. It's imperative that the city carry out a very aggressive campaign on informing people how they receive information and using local credible messages.

This is where, I believe, is the heart of our failure. Even when you look at the contact tracing application, I told the organizers of it, in the beginning, several months ago, to have a criteria to be a contact tracer, you need a bachelor's degree. There's just not making sense. You need local tenant association presidents, rabbis, imams, clergy leaders, black association president. You have to deputize local people to speak with the people in their community, because there's a large distrust of government and mixed information that's coming from the national level that is really hampering our ability to continue to keep this virus under control.

Brian: Are there any strictly non-Orthodox hotspots in Brooklyn? Hotspots.

Mr. Adams: Yes. There are two levels, the nine zip codes of where you look at someplace like a Crown Heights area. Remember, Crown Heights, you have approximately 15,000 in this city, 150,000 of the residents, or when you look at the other 11 areas, they include areas like Bedford-Stuyvesant as well. When you look at who's in a hotspot now and what could potentially become a hotspot, it goes outside, just the Hasidic parts of the city, and the violations I have witnessed a [unintelligible 00:10:13], some real violation in this city community, and that's why it's important to get on the ground when I went to Borough Park and communicated with leaders and handed out masks, but we also want to prevent these other 11 areas from also experiencing an increase. My briefing--

Brian: 11 areas that are on the verge of being as bad as the nine over 3%, yes.

Mr. Adams: Exactly. [unintelligible 00:10:39] you look at that. When I speak with my presidents of the hospitals in Brooklyn, they share with me that, "Eric, October and November, there's a potential of having COVID revisit this city with a vengeance." If we only focus on those nine areas and not continuing to communicate throughout the entire city, then I believe we're going to make a big mistake that we have to do with better than what we did previously by communicating with people on the ground.

Brian: Listeners, what's happening in Brooklyn and Queens? Help us report this story, especially if you live in one of the nine effected zip codes, and I'm not going to go through the list, you know where you are in the areas where public schools, as well as private schools, have now been shut down again by the city and the state and where you know what's happening, 646-435-7280.

Haredi, strictly Orthodox Jews, we welcome your voices. What's happening? Do you just believe the president that medicine will heal you? Is there a religious imperative that you see as higher than the public health imperative? Are you among those maybe trying to get your Haredi neighbors to behave more protectively of themselves? If you, let us know what you're thinking and doing from the effect of neighborhoods, and because as the Borough president of Brooklyn, Eric Adams, was just saying, not all of the hotspots are Haredi neighborhoods.

There are some others. There are other people who are not taking coronavirus seriously enough as well. You call us too, 646-435-7280, from anywhere in the affected zip codes. 646-435-7280 or tweet @BrianLehrer. Mayor De Blasio wanted to close nonessential businesses as well as schools. The governor rejected the business part. Who's right, in your opinion?

Mr. Adams: I think that we need to follow the medical advice. We have some of the best medical professionals in the city, and I believe that they should guide us. It should not be a decision or policies made by those who are elected offices. If our healthcare professionals, H&H department of health and mental hygiene, if their determination is that we should close businesses, as well as schools, we need to follow their directive throughout this entire pandemic. Far too often, it has become a political hot potato between our federal state and city. That is a big mistake. We need to be unified behind what our medical professionals are telling us on how to close or open and to prevent the spread of COVID-19.

Brian: The mayor yesterday noted on New York One that there had been the previous spike in August in Sunset Park that we covered here and others covered, but they got it under control quickly. Who was that outbreak among? What worked to tamp it down that the rest of Brooklyn might learn from?

Mr. Adams: Rapid response, which is so important. We have too many, I believe, government employees, his staff is on his executive team. I think they need to do with my team members did here when we moved it to [unintelligible 00:14:13] so that we can respond rapidly on the ground. That is the type of response. As soon as we identify where a spike is, we need to be able to deploy real resources there with information and the language of the people who are there, pick up Brooklyn, 47% of Brooklyn I speak a language other than English at home.

We are not communicated in all those languages. When we went to Sunset Park, we partnered with the local organizations in groups. We had literature in Spanish and in Chinese, which is a mixed population there, and we spoke to those stakeholders and deputized them so they could communicate on the ground. One of the perfect examples, Brian, of the failure of communication is what happened in Flushing.

We had loudspeakers broadcasting, how to deal with COVID-19 in Yiddish with the people in that community did not speak Yiddish. If you don't have a full understanding of the information you are attempting to give someone and you're speaking in their language and the manner in which they receive the information, then you are not giving them that information. That's miscommunication and misopportunities.

Brian: Let's take a phone call, David in Borough Park. You're on WNYC. David, thank you so much for calling in.

David: Sure, Brian. By the way Mr. Adams, hoping you learn some mail. I think we'll do 10 times better job than De Blasio, but I think I could pass anybody on the street and they would. Anyway, I live right on the edge of the Borough Park zip code, half a block away, the next level of this code. I have been Jewish non-observant, but I do observe the mask, where then when I'd say maybe 10% of the people that are obviously Orthodox, wear masks, the others don't. I stay away from 13th Avenue because of that.

Here is my theory that the governor couldn't just say, "Oh, we're going to close all these treatments." He would never get away with that. He's saying, "Let's close all the schools. I don't disagree with part of it, but I think that's the reason he was saying, "Let's close all the schools," so he can't be called names or just closing the [unintelligible 00:16:43]. In the past week, I've seen a lot of city workers handing up masks, hopefully that did something, and sanitizer. There's a great COVID center, $2 in my house, but never had a line. I would go there and get tested. Now there's a line. Something good is happening. That's my comment.

Brian: David, thank you so much for reporting from your community. Borough president Adams, do you want to respond or react to any of that?

Mr. Adams: Yes. Two weeks ago when I was in the Borough Park area, I would say that it was a smaller compliance than what I witnessed last week. When I went there last week, over 80% of the people I came in contact with, they were wearing mask and not only that, the small percentage who were not wearing mask, when I gave them the mask, they were extremely receptive to receiving.

People were coming down the block, asking, "May we have one of those?" What is that saying to me? We need to get on the ground. Those PPEs, many are not available in the local drug stores, there are price gouging that's taking place. People are going through economic strife. They're making the determination of how do they buy these things.

Now it's our opportunity to get on the ground, have communications in languages that people understand and give out these PPEs so we can stem the tide. Then, let's go to the neighboring communities and prevent the sprays, something we want to do this week. We're going to look at all those nine zip codes and we're going to go to the neighboring communities as well and do an education about how to not allow it to spread to additional zip codes.

Brian: The governor did not close schools in the strictly Orthodox communities in Rockland County, that actually have worse outbreaks than Brooklyn on a percentage basis like Monsey and Kiryas Joel. Do you understand the double standard, if that's what it is?

Mr. Adams: No, I don't. I don't know the logic behind why he did or didn't. Remember the governor and the mayor? They have far more data based on that health professionals. Then I would have to determine how they made that assessment. I think that at the top order of the decisions that we make must come from the healthcare professionals, this is one area, this can't become political.

I believe what's you're seeing from the president or anyone else that is attempted to politicize the health of New Yorkers or Americans is strictly irresponsible. I'm not clear why the determination was made not to close schools in certain locations, but they do have an up-to-date health information, and maybe they can give a better answer on why.

Brian: Let's take a phone call from Rockland County, Kathleen in Suffern. You're on WNYC. Hi, Kathleen.

Kathleen: Hi, Brian. Thank you for taking my call. I do live in Suffern New York, which is the area code 10901, which is presently a hotspot, and we have more than just one hotspot here in the county, Monsey Spring Valley and in Orange County, we have Kiryas Joel, which is part of Palm Tree. I wanted to mention two things. I have a daughter who lives in Brooklyn, so had been to Brooklyn quite too often. She lives in Gowanus, and I have to say that in Gowanus, Park Slope, other areas in that vicinity, people really are following the rules, the way outdoor restaurants are conducted, et cetera, really following the rules. I was very pleased.

I highly respect Mr. Adams from day one, but I have to question something, Mr. Adams. You've gone all over Brooklyn, and quite in the hotspots especially. Have you taken pictures of other groups? I need to see it.

Brian: You're saying this is essentially a Haredi or Hasidic or strictly Orthodox, whatever term you want to use, problem?

Kathleen: From my experience, I have lived here in Rockland County for 49 years, and taught in the schools, taught in the colleges. I have seen this, especially recently, in the High Holy Days, and large gatherings. There's even rumor of some concerts coming up.

Brian: The pandemic is only this year. What you saw in the past few years wouldn't be relevant, but you're seeing large gatherings continuing this year?

Kathleen: Large gatherings. What I'm pointing out is that large gatherings are part of family groups, and you don't have to get out of those habits right away, I think.

Brian: Kathleen, I'm going to leave it there and get a response. Thank you so much. Borough President on that.

Mr. Adams: It’s very important what she just stated. When we make these important decisions of changing human behavior, behavior scientists should be part of our policies because I know many people say it has been seven months, everyone should know about it. That is just not how human beings respond.

Till today, when I greet people, they stick out their hands, and they want to shake my hand. If you have been shaking hands as a form of greetings for 50, 67 years, you don't stop automatically, we have to constantly reinforce the rules. That is why, if you're underground, and you're constantly building into the rules, elbow-bumping, six-feet distance, wear a mask, you can't do this one time, and then look at your fellow New Yorker, and say that they're irresponsible because they're not following the rules or complying. No.

How do we reinforce the rules? How do we build it into our practices, particularly in those communities, where you have pockets of people who don't look at our news every day, don't read our newspapers, don't get their communication from local stations, they have their own methods of communicating. You won't know that if you're not on the ground, every day, all day, speaking to these different communities and learning their cultural norms, and how they receive information.

We have to stop running our city as though it is an English-speaking city where everyone receive the information the same way. I said this four months ago, when I realized we were not communicating to people in a real way, and we have yet to get it right. That's what we need to start focusing on.

Brian: Where do you think President Trump fits in, if at all, to those communication channels? We played the clip at the beginning of Trump from last night saying, "Don't be afraid of the virus. We have great medicines now." How much do you think the outbreak communities in Brooklyn are politically pro-Trump communities and that the kind of messaging that we've heard from him, even with a virus, even while infected, is one of the reasons those New Yorkers aren't taking it so seriously?

Mr. Adams: I believe a lot. I believe the President's actions, along with a long list of irresponsible actions, it's got to do a great harm and preventing what we are attempting to accomplish, because you're right. The visual of President Trump, even if you don't know English well, the visual of him pulling off his mask, we saw what he did a month ago when he was really compelling space to open to a quick and cause a great deal of problems. I think that that visual and what he did today is going to create a greater healthcare communication crisis in our cities and in our country. I cannot emphasize how much I think his actions were clearly irresponsible, and really shows his lack of care out for the city.

When you go to those places where you-- He is a person that people look towards, and he has his great deal of support, they’re going to take that and use it as a rallying cry of "Don't be afraid of the virus." I say to New Yorkers, be afraid of the virus, it's real. The number of deaths, the number of people who are going to have long-term healthcare crisis, the strain on our healthcare system, we must be concerned about the reemergence of COVID-19.

Brian: Yet, Staten Island, very pro-Trump, relatively, does not have the same kind of outbreak. There's something, I guess, about the interaction between the pro-Trump community and the religious practices in the certain Hasidic communities in Brooklyn.

Mr. Adams: No, I think it's something else to analyze as well. When you look at our Hasidic communities and other communities in Brooklyn and throughout the city, they're more densely populated. Staten Island is not area that is extremely densely populated. You have a lot of private homes, there's a lot of open space, the enemy of fighting COVID-19 is crowding. We have a subway system here. In many of our communities, you see a large number of tenement buildings, a large number of people congregated in an area. Crowding is the enemy, but you don't see that much when you go to Staten Island. When I visit Staten Island, it's more open space, but that is not to say that the president's irresponsible actions, they are not having, or they are having an impact on how some are viewing how to deal with COVID-19.

Brain: Here is Dr. Harris in Queens. Dr. Harris, you're on WNYC, thank you for calling in.

Dr. Harris: You're welcome. Thanks a million. There's a couple of issues. I want to thank the Borough President for his wise words and his combating bigotry and his combating COVID-19. I think it's very important to use exact words. Brian, although I think you're a great host and I like you, is that when you constantly use the word Orthodox, it encourages bigotry and Anti-Semitism in Brooklyn, which is--

Brian: Wait, Dr. Harris, let me jump in, because I--

Dr. Harris: Wait, just let me finish. It’s the Hasidic community which has an issue, not the Orthodox, being Orthodox. Also knowing Hasidic community members, I'm quite aware of the problem. Since I also have always worn an N95 mask, I tell you [unintelligible 00:28:02] to do that. The problem is in the Hasidic community, as a Borough President has mentioned--

Brian: Let me just say something about terminology and what I've been trying to do, and you tell me if you think this is wrong, because I'm sensitive to exactly what you're saying, not to paint with a broad brush, by saying Orthodox, there's modern Orthodox, there's all different kinds of Orthodox too.

My understanding is, the people we're talking about, in this case, prefer to be called "Haredi" or "strictly Orthodox." They don't like Ultra-Orthodox, they take that as demeaning. I try to avoid that. Just saying, Orthodox, I haven't done that because that paints with too broad a brush in the way that you're saying. I've been saying Haredi, which is a term that's used, I think, from Yiddish, and strictly Orthodox, which is a term that some of those, Hasidic, which is another word we could use, but even with that, there are different Hasidic groups but that they prefer "strictly Orthodox." Just give me your take on that, earnestly.

Dr. Harris: You shouldn't use, two reasons. One, Hasidic is a really specific sub-group who have certain beliefs about Judaism, firstly. Secondly, is that when you use Orthodox in any context, people who are Anti-Semitic just attack Orthodox, because they don't differentiate, strictly, [unintelligible 00:29:28] or modern or any of that. It's like saying, Black people, is that it just is used as a term to generalize racism or bigotry. That's my concern about that, but the other issue is-- Just generally, people who are not familiar with the Hasidic community are not aware of, is that they generally don't have TVs. For their particular beliefs, their exposure to the media is very limited because they consider it contamination, so is that when everyone else in the world knows that you should be wearing masks despite the idiot in the White House, is that they don't even have that information. That same problem exists in Israel also. They simply don't have the information about wearing a mask.

Brian: Dr. Harris, forgive me. I'm going to jump in just for a time. I want to ask you a follow-up question. From your understanding of the Hasidic communities you are referring to and how media's consumed and information is treated, what do you think would be the most effective means for the city, or the state, or anyone else, to communicate best practices?

Dr. Harris: It's simple and it follows what the Borough President had said. The mayor has failed all these communities. The mayor needs to get the rabbis in order because Hasidic members follow the rabbis word for word. If the rabbis in the community would say "You have to do this because it violates Halakha, Jewish law," they'd all be wearing mask and PEPs, and there wouldn't be an issue nine months ago.

Brian: The rabbis have to buy in.

Dr. Harris: Excuse me?

Brian: The rabbis have to buy in.

Dr. Harris: It's that the rabbis [inaudible 00:31:24] all support the Democratic Party is that would buy in if he sat down with them and worked with them to enforce the law.

Brian: I'm going to leave it there. Forgive me. Please call us again. We are almost out of time, Borough President. Anything in response to anything that Dr. Harris brought up, and I'll throw in one last thing here that's related, an article in the Jewish newspaper The Forward today is headlined "Cuomo on warpath, Orthodox Jews worry that COVID-19 shutdowns will backfire." Are you worried about that in that way? Anything you want to say to our last caller?

Mr. Adams: I think that we have to be extremely conscious and sensitive that people attempt or will attempt to use a crisis to demonize any group, not only the Jewish group, the African-Americans, Latinos, whoever, Muslims. We must be extremely sensitive. We noted depth of different of forms of religious beliefs and cultures, but not everyone will take the time to really explore all of that.

They have the tendency to lock everyone together, and we need to be sensitive of that when we put out a message to make sure that we don't feed into negative stereotypes. I know personally we experience that as an African-American, and I would hate to see that carried out on any group in this city, and we should be aware of that.

 

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