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Congestion pricing has cleared one of its biggest hurdles, and is now headed to the Federal Highway Administration where it is likely to be approved. Stephen Nessen, transportation reporter for the WNYC Newsroom, talks about which fares made the cut and what comes next.
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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now on to the details of the congestion pricing tolls that got finalized by the part of the MTA that was working on that this week. As I mentioned yesterday, there are still some court cases challenging the whole concept and we'll see if any of those actually derail the plan but the final rules for congestion pricing are out officially and they're supposed to take effect in June so let's talk to our transportation reporter, your friendly neighborhood transportation reporter, as he goes on Twitter or X, Stephen Nessen. Hi, Stephen.
Stephen Nessen: Hello, Brian.
Brian Lehrer: Are you surprised that our lines are already full before you've even spoken one word with people with questions and comments about that? Is this consistent with your experience as a reporter this week?
Stephen Nessen: Oh, 100%. Just illustrative of that, Brian, real quick. When I went out to talk to drivers after the vote, I just walked up to one driver and I didn't even have to ask a question. He just unprompted said, "Congestion pricing, I hate it."
Brian Lehrer: I see there are like 500 comments on your Gothamist article and I don't know how often that happens but not very often. All right, rule number one, congestion pricing $15 for passenger cars in effect from 5:00 AM to 9:00 PM on weekdays. Starts a little later in the morning on the weekends, 9:00 AM to 9:00 PM. I wonder even about that, John, even on Saturdays and Sundays, up till nine o'clock at night, people have to pay this congestion pricing fee. Why'd they do that?
Stephen Nessen: Well, the analysis found that if you want to reduce congestion in the city, essentially, there's congestion all the time in Manhattan. After the pandemic, subway ridership still hasn't returned to the pre-pandemic levels, but traffic levels are above where they were before the pandemic. Over 100% of the traffic is back. This is really an effort to address that and deal with that and unclog the streets of Manhattan.
Brian Lehrer: I know I just called you, John, I was still locked into the last segment with our colleague, John Campbell. Stephen, you want to start going down the list of exemptions?
Stephen Nessen: Sure. Really, Brian, there are very, very, very few exemptions. The reason for that is that the more exemptions you create or the more these exemptions the MTA creates, the higher the price would have to be. They were trying to keep the price as low as possible so they're not overburdening. Remember, there was a threat at one point that it was going to cost $24 to drive into Manhattan. As a result, there are very few exemptions.
There were some that were baked into the law and then some that the MTA, the Traffic Mobility Review Board came up with. Of course, emergency vehicles are exempt. This week, we got a tweak to the exemptions. They called it a clarification, but essentially school buses which had not been originally exempt, will be exempt.
Brian Lehrer: Stephen, can I just stop you on this one for a second? I couldn't even believe that this was a topic. School buses were going to be charged the congestion pricing fee?
Stephen Nessen: Well, it's a quixotic reason, I suppose, but for some reason, MTA folks got it into their head that school buses are often rented as party buses on off hours. Apparently, the DOE was like, "Not our yellow school buses, maybe other buses."
Brian Lehrer: I guess they can't code the toll readers so precisely that they can distinguish between school buses taking kids to school and school buses being used for party buses.
Stephen Nessen: Right, so that was sorted. Another sticking point for Mayor Adams especially was the city's municipal vehicles. Of course fire trucks and garbage trucks are exempt but it was not clear about other vehicles that are necessary for city jobs. Think of like road repair crews. As the city said, even an ECS worker that has to go investigate a case they wanted those people who drive for work to be exempt. About 5,000 different types of municipal vehicles are going to be exempt from the toll.
The MTA sat down with the city and went through agency by agency who absolutely has to drive for this job and put together a list. I will note they did not release it publicly, but said we have to check open data at a later date to see which vehicles are exempt. I'm looking forward to that deep dive.
Brian Lehrer: We should say, and I think they've talked about this from the beginning, that another exemption, if you want to call it an exemption, is you don't get tolled if you don't actually come off the highways on the perimeter of Manhattan onto the city streets. I guess this is so for through traffic, right? If you want to go from Brooklyn to New Jersey, you can come over the Williamsburg Bridge, go down the FDR Drive, around the Battery, up the West Side, and out the Holland Tunnel, and you're not going to get charged. Is that accurate?
Stephen Nessen: That is the idea, but I need to double check and confirm whether there's any-- there are some little things to note, if you drive on city streets, you're going to get charged. It's not a 100% clear to me that you wouldn't be charged trying to get into the Holland Tunnel.
Brian Lehrer: That's West Street down there at the perimeter. It's not exactly the same as what we call the West Side Drive. It's really the Henry Hudson Parkway, north of 57th Street. You're not going to be tolled until you're off of that. Let's say you come in on the George Washington Bridge and you come down Henry Hudson. Once you get off there at 57th Street onto the city streets, I guess that's where the toll kicks in.
Stephen Nessen: That's right, below 60th Street.
Brian Lehrer: Yes.
Stephen Nessen: I do think if you went through the Battery Park tunnel and you stayed on the West Side Highway to that, you would not be charged.
Brian Lehrer: Right. All right. Well, we'll have to clear that one up yet. Meanwhile, Brooklynites, when this kicks in, I guess you'll have to go through Staten Island if you want to go to New Jersey and not pay a toll but then there are other tolls. The 60th Street border for this. Have they installed the infrastructure, the readers, these I guess would be E-ZPass readers and license plate readers, is that right?
Stephen Nessen: That's right. It should be completely done by now. They were just wrapping it up about a month ago so I assume everything is finished now. They're actually pretty cool, unique pieces of technology. Like the E-ZPass entries that you see on the highways and stuff. This is a much, much smaller, I think for the most part, more than half of them were put on existing pieces of infrastructure, like light posts or pedestrian crossways.
These things are supposedly AI enabled so that they get smarter over time, but they can actually detect the size of the vehicle because that's key to the tolling, is that different vehicles are charged different rates. Personal vehicles are $15, like we said, but a small truck is $24, and a large truck is $36. It has a sensor that can tell when a vehicle enters this reader zone and when it leaves, and apparently, it's going to get smarter overtime at doing that. Yes, I think the majority of New Yorkers at this point, I think 95% use E-ZPass, so that's how you'll be tolled. For those that don't, it has a license plate reader, and that will send you a bill.
Brian Lehrer: Maybe the Black market and ghost plates or like Arizona plates that are fake and that they'll never find you by reading, maybe that Black market just just got more lucrative.
Stephen Nessen: Well, that is the major concern and I'm not sure if John Campbell got into it, but there is some legislation pending that the governor is hoping to include in this year's budget that would increase the penalties for that scoff a law ism.
Brian Lehrer: Interesting. As we talk about the new congestion pricing rules finalized this week for driving on Manhattan City streets below 60th Street, so really 60th and below I guess would be technically accurate. 212-433-WNYC if you have a question, 212-433-9692. John, a number of our callers are people who live inside the zone so let's take one of those. Karen in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Karen.
Karen: Hi, thank you so much. I live in the 20s on the east side and once a month I go up to Costco. I take the FDR Drive to 117th Street where local people are given jobs and I want to know what it's going to cost me whether it's going to be just $15 because I took my car out, or it's going to be $30 or what?
Brian Lehrer: Stephen, can you help?
Karen: [crosstalk] to pay $6 parking fee.
Brian Lehrer: Ha.
Stephen Nessen: You don't get charged to leave the city, but you do get charged to enter the city or enter the congestion zone, so it'd be $15 for your trip to Costco.
Brian Lehrer: Right, when you come home. Karen, for better or worse, that's the answer. Let's see. Helping to clear up any confusion over exactly where the northern border is. We have a question from Jane in Long Island City. Jane, you're on WNYC with our transportation reporter, Stephen Nessen. Hi, Jane.
Jane: Hi, can you hear me?
Brian Lehrer: Yes.
Jane: Hi. My question is, if I'm coming from Long Island City, going on the upper roadways of the Queensboro Bridge because the Queensboro Bridge is at 60th Street. If I take it from Manhattan, I enter on 57th which is going to the upper roadway. Is that going to be a charge?
Brian Lehrer: [crosstalk] is their noble answer.
Stephen Nessen: That is a question we've had because it does seem somewhat unfair, especially if you don't actually want to go into Manhattan, but just want to get on the Queensboro Bridge, but my understanding is you would be charged. One thing to note is that it's not set in stone like forever this is how it's going to be. The MTA can tweak the program, can adjust the tolling infrastructure. My understanding for now is yes, but it's not set in stone. If this is an ongoing problem, I imagine the MTA could find some way to tweak it.
Jane: Okay, excuse me.
Brian Lehrer: Yes, go ahead Jane. Go ahead.
Jane: I'm sorry. Entering from Queens, I'm getting on the upper roadway, so I'm charged when I make that-- When am I charged? Am I charged at the entrance of Queensboro South when you're going on the upper roadway? Is there going to be a reader there? Because the upper roadway leaves you at 62nd, so in reality, you shouldn't get charged because you're getting off at 62nd Street.
Stephen Nessen: Right. It's like you wouldn't be charged at 62nd Street, but at 57th, you would be.
Jane: I'm saying going on the Queensboro Bridge in Queens.
Brian Lehrer: Yes, you don't get charged until you cross 60th Street in Manhattan, but was part of your question there, Jane, also about leaving the city, leaving Manhattan? I shouldn't say the city, leaving Manhattan for Queens. Go ahead.
Jane: If you're leaving Manhattan, then you take the lower roadway, you enter right at 60th Street, but if you take the upper roadway, you have to go down 57th to get on the ramp, to go to the bridge.
Brian Lehrer: Right. Let's say, and Jane, thank you, I'm going to move on, but really good questions. Yes, so theoretically, I guess if you're doing something on 65th Street, Stephen, and you want to go to Queens from there, and you get on, which is it again, the lower roadway where you have to enter at 57th Street, then you have to cross the threshold for 20 seconds, depending on traffic, and pay the toll. Right.
Stephen Nessen: We've asked about that and that has been my understanding, but of course, like I was saying, the MTA doesn't want to create unnecessary bottlenecks in certain places like the upper roadway, is suddenly jammed because everyone's avoiding the lower roadway. I think that would be something they would probably address.
Brian Lehrer: All right. Now we're going to get on to the topic of discounts for tolls you pay before you get to the congestion pricing district on the way-- Oh, just to put a button on the last call about 60th Street there. Is it accurate to say 60th Street or below? Or is it accurate to say, below 60th Street? Do you get the distinction? It's a one-block distinction.
Stephen Nessen: I do. We've been saying below 60th Street. I've seen NBC reports below 61st Street, I've seen Hell Gate reports below 59th Street, but 60th Street deserve the threshold we've been using. "On 60th Street, you will be charged."
Brian Lehrer: All right. Now about those tolls that you pay on the way in and what happens in those cases when you get to 60th Street or thereabouts. Nancy in Montclair, you're on WNYC. Hi, Nancy.
Nancy: Hi, Brian. You keep saying that things have been finalized, but it sounds like this is the weirdest complicated game in the world listening to you. I listened yesterday and I didn't hear anything about taking the Lincoln Tunnel in, so I googled it, and way down below after all the various complicated guidelines, it said something about the Holland and Lincoln tunnels, there would be a, I don't know, a $5 fee or something to enter the city. Do you guys know anything about this?
Brian Lehrer: Stephen, you do, right?
Stephen Nessen: I do. I have it right here, so yes.
Nancy: Oh, good. [laughs]
Stephen Nessen: Drivers will get a $5 credit towards the toll. If you enter from the Queens Midtown Tunnel, you carry Holland and your Lincoln Tunnel.
Nancy: You pay instead of $15 to enter the city, in Manhattan, you spend--
Stephen Nessen: $10.
Brian Lehrer: $10.
Nancy: $10. Yes.
Stephen Nessen: That's correct.
Nancy: My theory is, I lived in Manhattan for a while, everybody who lives in Manhattan, just it should be illegal to have a car. That way, it will be a lot easier than what everybody's going through to figure this out. [crosstalk]
Brian Lehrer: Nancy, thank you, but that is a whole other show. Should it be legal to have a car in Manhattan? I could hear the heads exploding of our Manhattan residents who for various reasons think they have to have a car, and some of them do. That's the Lincoln and Holland Tunnel. What about the George Washington Bridge?
Stephen Nessen: No, there is no credit for that. You would be charged that, and if you enter the zone, you would also pay the $15.
Brian Lehrer: How do they rationalize the difference?
Stephen Nessen: That's a good question. I think the sense is that it's not comparable. Partly this is a deal that is supposed to appease New Jersey, which we know has not been appeased by this at all, but it's just the sense that those tunnels, you don't have a choice. Once you exit the tunnel, you're in the tolling zone, whereas the George Washington Bridge, you're not automatically entering Manhattan per se.
Brian Lehrer: Interesting. I wonder if we're going to see effect on traffic patterns in Jersey if people might start avoiding the bridge and going south to the Lincoln Tunnel depending on where of course in New Jersey they're coming from and how inconvenient that is, but I think that's another thing to keep our eyes on. Here's a question further to the school bus exemption. Oded in Forest Hills, you're on WNYC. Hello, Oded, if I'm saying your name right.
Oded: You are saying it correct. Good morning, Brian. Good morning, Stephen. Thank you for taking my call. I was calling specifically related to the carve-outs that are stated for DOE-contracted school buses. I am a parent volunteer coordinator for a little over 150 families from Queens that go to a school on the Lower East Side, which is a New York City public school. It's a citywide school called [unintelligible 00:17:47]. We do not get busing provided by the city. We have to pay for it ourselves to get children as young as five years old to school. From what I'm seeing, we are not going to get an exemption for our yellow school buses to bring our kids to New York City public schools. Can you confirm that?
Stephen Nessen: Well, I would ask, is your yellow school bus like a DOE-certified school bus?
Oded: Yes, it is. They're licensed and it looks like any other school bus. It's just we pay for it privately. It's considered a private bus, not a New York City DOE-contracted bus. The city does not provide busing to people who live outside of the boroughs greater than five miles from their school. That is the City Office of Transportation Policy, I disagree with it when you have a one-and-a-half billion dollar budget for busing and transportation, and you have school kids and you give them a MetroCard. It's a little hard to get a five-year-old school by 8:00 AM if they're coming from Queens or Brooklyn or the Bronx or Staten Island.
Brian Lehrer: I hear you, but if I understand you correct, Stephen, that school bus would be exempt.
Stephen Nessen: My understanding, I'll definitely have to go back and look at the fine print, but I thought the language the MTA used was if it's a DOE-licensed school bus, they would be exempt. You might be off the hook there.
Brian Lehrer: Oded, I hope that answers your question. I guess really you're going to have to ask your school or ask the bus company on that particular, but it sounds like if it's DOE-contracted, probably exempt. How about Ubers and Lyfts versus yellow cabs, Stephen? There are different rules, right? Different extra charges that the passengers pay depending on which kind of taxi you're using?
Stephen Nessen: That's right. This was a very contentious issue, but right, yellow and green taxis will pay an extra $1.25, whereas Uber and Lyft will pay an extra $2.50. In fact, as you know, the Taxi Workers Alliance who's been very fierce led by Bhairavi Desai were the only ones that did serve a very vocal protest at the vote this week. They disrupted it and marched around the room before police escorted them out. They were calling for a total exemption for yellow cabs because they say it's already stacked against them.
Uber and Lyft have so many advantages and their drivers have been suffering, as we've reported for so many years, but they did not get a final exemption. As you know, they already pay a previous, the very first congestion surcharge, as well as another MTA tax, so they were saying it's already like $10 to enter a taxi before you've even gone anywhere, with fees that go just to the MTA.
Brian Lehrer: Right. It's an incentive to take the yellow cab if you can. It's like a $1.25 incentive to take a yellow cab if you can, as opposed to an Uber or a Lyft if you're going to cross into the zone. Oh, here's a caller we had yesterday with a question and I'm going to let him back on. I think it's the same caller for another topic that we haven't covered yet. Jesse in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jesse. Was that you yesterday?
Jesse: Yes. Hi, Brian. I'm flattered I get to talk to you two days in a row. This is like a lifetime achievement. Hi, Stephen.
Brian Lehrer: Low bar.
Jesse: I called yesterday because I'm a motorcyclist, and I drive a Vespa and I drive it every day in the city. I know other cities outside of New York, for example, London has a congestion pricing tax, but they recognize how in that city, motorcycles don't actually contribute to congestion and they're exempt from being charged. I'm just wondering, is there going to be any negotiation eventually, to recognize that motorcyclists do not contribute to the actual congestion of New York City traffic? I feel like there was a lack of nuance in recognizing that different vehicles contribute or don't contribute, and specifically motorcycles.
Brian Lehrer: Too late to lobby though Jesse, the rules are out, but it's half price, $7.50, right?
Stephen Nessen: That's right, $7.50 during the day, $1.75 at night, but I think Jesse's totally right. They do differentiate because big trucks pay $24, even bigger trucks $36, but the difference between a motorcycle and a car is pretty vast in the amount of space they take up and the amount of pollution they create. The MTA has also been clear, like I was mentioning before. I know we talk about this like it's set in stone, but things can be changed over time. If you want to lobby this issue, or present data to the MTA, I'm sure they would consider it, they would look at it.
Brian Lehrer: People with handicap plates or otherwise, other ways to signify passengers or drivers with disabilities, exempt to what degree?
Stephen Nessen: Yes. They are exempt. Vehicles that transport people with a disability, if you have the license plate, they would be exempt. I believe taxis that transport people with a disability, they accessorize certainly, would be exempt as well. That was an early exemption. That's not new.
Brian Lehrer: Accessorize but probably not an individual taxi that was wheelchair accessible because the toll reader would have no way to know who your passenger is, right?
Stephen Nessen: Right.
Brian Lehrer: Last category, and I think I may have gotten this slightly wrong yesterday or a little bit incomplete anyway. Low-income exemptions. I think the part that I omitted yesterday, because I wasn't aware of it yet, as the rules were coming out is that it's different for people who live in the zone, than who live out of the zone who want financial hardship exemptions, correct?
Stephen Nessen: That's right. Do you want me to explain a little bit?
Brian Lehrer: Yes, please.
Stephen Nessen: There's two. When the original legislation was passed, they wanted to have something for low-income drivers. The original congestion pricing law that passed, people who live in the zone below 60th Street, whose annual income is $60,000 or less, will get a tax credit towards the tolls they pay, so they would not be charged, but New Yorkers who live outside of the zone that earn $50,000 a year or less, and are enrolled in some income-based assistance program, get half off the daytime toll after the first 10 trips in a calendar month.
Brian Lehrer: There we leave it with our transportation reporter for WNYC and Gothamist, Stephen Nessen. Is there a date in June where this takes effect if the lawsuits don't derail it?
Stephen Nessen: The MTA is aiming for June 15th.
Brian Lehrer: We will talk assuming this goes into effect over the coming months about the actual impact on people's lives and also how they define success. What public policy goals will they have achieved once this is in effect for a while? Obviously, a lot more on this to come such a big change to driving in Manhattan below 60th Street. Steve, thanks a lot.
Stephen Nessen: Thank you.
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