Former Gov. Paterson Talks Gov. Cuomo's Resignation

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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. As Kathy Hochul gets ready to become governor of New York under extraordinary circumstances, there is one living person who's got some experience at this. David Paterson became Governor in 2008 when Eliot Spitzer resigned because of a scandal. We'll talk to Governor Paterson in just a minute, but here is Kathy Hochul making one thing very clear in her first news conference in this role yesterday.

She is not Andrew Cuomo and they were not close. Here's her answer when asked if she was aware of the toxic workplace environment in his office.

Kathy Hochul: The Governor and I have not been close, physically or otherwise in terms of much time, and so I've been traveling the state and do not spend much time in his presence or in the presence of many in the State Capitol, but that is what is being reported. I'm going to stand right here at the end of my term whenever it ends, no one will ever describe my administration as a toxic work environment.

Brian Lehrer: No, not me. [inaudible 00:01:16] me, I'm not him. I didn't even know what was going on there. He didn't even let me in there. Few minutes later, Hochul was asked how people could trust her to be different since she was part of the Cuomo administration.

Kathy Hochul: First of all, many people have supported the policies of the Cuomo administration. There is a strong legacy of accomplishment. I was out there fighting in the streets to raise the minimum wage. I was out there fighting for paid family leave. I've been the champion of policies to eradicate the specter of heroin and opioid abuse, something that has touched my family personally.

Childcare issues, I've been out there making the announcements on affordable housing, clean energy, economic development, so that will continue. Those policies will continue and even be more enhanced, but with respect to the particular environment and the reputation of the current administration, I think it's pretty clear and it's no secret that we have not been close and I've not been associated with that.

I know the job I fought for the same policies. That's why I'm more prepared than anyone could possibly be for this position.

Brian Lehrer: Policies, yes, but once again, taking an opportunity to say they were not close. It appears to be true that they weren't close. Albany journalists are describing their relationship as frosty. One thing worth noting, think about it, in all those TV appearances at the start of the pandemic that won Andrew Cuomo an Emmy, he would bring on various state officials to be presenters on different days, but how many times did you see Lieutenant Governor Kathy Hochul make even a cameo?

Let's get some free advice for her from David Paterson. Lieutenant governor under Elliot Spitzer starting in 2007 until he suddenly became Governor when Spitzer resigned over a prostitution scandal in 2008. Paterson's book, that includes this part of his life, came out last year called Black, Blind, & in Charge: A Story of Visionary Leadership and Overcoming Adversity.

As some of you know, he went on to be a radio talk show host for awhile after that on WOR, so he should feel at least a little bit at home doing this. Hi, governor, always great to have you on. Welcome back to WNYC.

David Paterson: Good morning, Brian. I'm actually back on the air on another station. I won't advertise for them, but it's-

Brian Lehrer: Oh, I did not know that.

David Paterson: Yes, I grew up listening to talk radio and in those days, you didn't have the availability of-- There were recorded books for the blind, but you didn't have the access to immediate information, so it's basically how I got my news.

Brian Lehrer: You can say where you work, you can plug your show.

David Paterson: Oh, it's on WABC in the afternoons around five o'clock with John Catsimatidis. We don't always agree, but it's pretty good show.

Brian Lehrer: Let's just remind people of some of this history as we get into this. You were the highest ranking Democrat in the state Senate, the Senate minority leader representing Harlem, when Eliot Spitzer tapped you to be his running mate in the 2006 election. How did that come about?

David Paterson: Well, he governor did not like the Lieutenant Governors who had preceded me in the sense that they had very little political background. They had virtually no government background, they were judges or policy people in one area. He was looking for someone that he thought could actually govern, that would be able to jump in instantly. He used to say, "If I got hit by a truck, I need someone who can take over that same day."

Well, he didn't get hit by a truck, but he was out in a very short period of time. He asked me to run and at the time, Brian, I had closed the gap. The Democrats, we were down seven seats in the Senate and I had cut it to three in the 2004 election. Seemingly, it was just a matter of time before the Democrats would win the majority and I would be the majority leader of the Senate, which is really the second most powerful position in Albany.

We worked out some areas that I wanted to work on that he allowed me to do. Then I said to him, "If Hillary Clinton wins the presidency in 2008, you will have to replace her as the US Senator and I'm hoping that our relationship will be such that you'll pick me." Then he said something to me that was very prophetic. He said, "You know what? As long as you stay out of trouble, it'll be fine, as in physician heal thyself." [laughs] That's pretty much how I became lieutenant governor.

Brian Lehrer: Now, we're going to get into his resignation and your ascension to governor in a minute, but just on the selection of a lieutenant governor, Spitzer chose you. Today, it seems important to have geographical balance on the ticket. Cuomo who's from Queens chose Hochul who's from Buffalo. Hochul pretty much said in her news conference yesterday that she's leaning towards someone from downstate. In fact, here's that clip.

Kathy Hochul: I love upstate. I love downstate. I love the whole state and there are so many qualified individuals, but I'm cognizant of the need for diversity and an inclusive ticket. I'm going to name someone that I believe the state will be familiar with and will be very proud of, but the process is still in its early stages.

Brian Lehrer: Back then, Spitzer was from the city, you were from the city. Why didn't that matter at the time?

David Paterson: You'd have to ask him that question, but then you could ask me because I picked as my Lieutenant Governor, Richard Ravitch, who was from New York city, had a lot of state experience being head of MTA at one point. When I picked the US Senator, I picked Kiersten Gillibrand and I was looking for an upstater. I thought that that balance was important.

The reason it was even more important in that selection is because this person would have independent authority. In other words, lieutenant governor, basically your job is to call the governor's house every morning and if he or she answers the phone, you can go back to sleep. Your work is done for the day, but the US Senator obviously is one of 100 US senators in the country, and so I took Ravitch in my first choice. Then when the Senate seat was available, I took a Gillibrand.

Brian Lehrer: We'll come back if we have time later to your selection of Gillibrand, which was controversial at the time among progressives because she had a reputation as an upstate so called blue dog Democrat in Congress, a more conservative Democrat. She had a good NRA rating, for example.

We'll come back to that, but I want to get to the central storyline here, which is that in March, 2008, the news breaks that Governor Spitzer has had multiple instances of sex with a prostitute arranged by a high end prostitution ring. Do you remember your first reaction when you heard this as Lieutenant Governor?

David Paterson: Well, my first reaction was that I didn't understand what was being said to me because I received a phone call at five after 1:00 on March 10th, 2008. It was a Monday afternoon from Richard Baum, who was the governor's secretary and he was whispering. I wouldn't find out for about three weeks the reason he was whispering is that he was in the bathroom of Spitzers house.

He actually put a towel around his head to try to muffle his voice, and he's telling me what's going on, but I really can't hear him. Now, Charles O'Byrne, my secretary was also on the call. When Baum realized that I couldn't understand what he was saying, he texted O'Byrne as to what was going on. He comes up to my office on the third floor of the Capitol. He knocked the door, and when I answered the door, I have-- It's very difficult for me to recognize people's faces even at a close distance, but even I could see that he was beet red. He says, he tells me, "Spitzer is going to resign at 2:30, you have an hour and 20 minutes to prepare to become Governor." I asked him for a suggestion, he said, "Why don't you go and sit down and write a few notes, which in an hour, we're going to call your inauguration." What I did at that point was I contacted all of the state leaders.

The one who I thought would be the last to call back was the first to call back and that was Senator Hillary Clinton. I tell her I'm going to become governor and she asked me, "Well, what happened?" I said, "No, the governor is fine, but he's going to resign." She said, "Why is he resigning, David?" I thought to myself, "How do you explain a sex scandal to Hillary Clinton?" [laughs]

Brian Lehrer: I was reading into the timeline on this this morning to refresh my memory for our conversation. What I read was-- tell me if this is wrong. His use of a prostitute broke in the press one day, people started calling for his resignation right away, but it was not until five days after the scandal broke that he announced his resignation and to be effective five days after that. Is that incorrect?

David Paterson: That's incorrect. March 10th is the day the story broke around 1:45 in the afternoon. The story broke. He comes out at 2:15 PM to tell the press that he has a personal issue, and he hasn't decided what to do with it. I'm sitting there thinking, "A billion people know about this, and you're calling it a personal issue. I don't think so." Then the calls for his resignation come that afternoon.

There are calls for his impeachment. He was going to make the announcement as they said at 2:30 PM, but some of his family members was so upset, they just couldn't accept that this was going to happen and he delayed it. The next morning, he gets up and decides he's going to seek therapy and he's going to stay on. The speaker of the assembly, Sheldon Silver, tells him he doesn't have a vote in the entire legislature for him to stay.

Tuesday evening, he announces that he will resign. Wednesday, March 12th, around 11:00 in the morning, he resigned. I asked him to make the resignation effective at one o'clock the next Monday because I didn't want to get sworn in in Albany with just a few people standing around me. I wanted the whole legislature to be there and he accommodated that request.

Brian Lehrer: I see. That's the difference in the timeline, but you found out on a moment's notice. Why do you think Spitzer resigned so quickly compared with Cuomo who fought through multiple scandals with arguably much broader implications for half a year?

David Paterson: Spitzer, if you read his resignation, said, "I demanded accountability from others as attorney general and governor and now I demand that accountability from myself." Spitzer knew what he had done. He knew it was reprehensible and no one wanted him to stay. Not just for that reason, but for the way he had treated the legislature. He stood up and I thought offered a very respectful and I think admirable resignation.

On the other hand, Governor Cuomo, most of his resignation speech was fighting the case that he's in now and offering what he sees as facts that are answering [inaudible 00:14:10]-

Brian Lehrer: Exculpatory for him, yes.

David Paterson: Right, for him in that situation. I think that the resignation was more difficult for him because he has not resolved in his mind that he did anything wrong. I thought and said at the time, back in March, when Governor Cuomo, he had this press conference one day and he said something like, "People tell me that sometimes when I speak that I'm offending them and although there's no intent to do that." He just goes on and on.

I'm thinking, "Governor, any apology that has nine commas in it is just making you look not credible. I think that was the opportunity to come right out and say, "Look, this is what I did. I did it. I'm sorry." As we all know, in my first day as governor, I had to do [inaudible 00:15:08] over a couple of issues, but I didn't mince any words. I just came out, took responsibility for it and moved on.

I think that that was a very difficult day for me. Some of the things I had to say were difficult, but sacrifice ignites compassion. All of us know that we have done things wrong many, many times. When you see someone stand up and take responsibility for it, you may not like what they did, but you respect them. I think that the governor lost that chance back in March when he muddled through it and really didn't address anything that he does wrong, ever.

Brian Lehrer: Now, listeners we can take your calls for former governor of New York, David Paterson, who like Kathy Hochul is doing now, is ascended from lieutenant governor when his boss, Governor Eliot Spitzer, had to resign because of the scandal. 646-435-7280. If you have a question for Governor Paterson, 646-435-7280, or you can tweet your question @BrianLehrer.

Governor, it's controversial now that Cuomo gave himself two weeks to remain in office. People wonder what he's got planned for these two weeks. Spitzer did it in the way you described. Do you think there's an optimal amount of time in terms of the public interest?

David Paterson: I think in terms of the public interest and I thought about this when I asked the governor to delay. He was going to leave on Wednesday when he resigned and I asked that it be the next Monday, and it gave me time to write an inauguration speech and there's a little matter that had to be dealt with. In the case of Lieutenant Governor Hochul, she has been aware that this situation could occur since March, since the investigation began.

As she was hinting yesterday, she's ready to take over right now. I just think the Governor has just not resolved in his mind what's actually going on yet. His self-awareness just does not seem to be particularly helpful to him at this particular time. I think that when you make these types of decisions for the good of the state, you want to let governor in waiting, Hochul, start as soon as she's ready or says she's ready.

The two weeks will go by very quickly and there's a lot of things that she's got to work on. I don't think it'll affect her that much. It was just a little puzzling that they wanted to have that amount of time. What they're going to do with that time, it's suspicious. I'll put it that way.

Brian Lehrer: I guess anybody's guess you don't have any theories?

David Paterson: No. [chuckles]

Brian Lehrer: What did you need to do during the transition that Kathy Hochul would also be doing right now in addition to writing the inaugural address? I totally get that. I didn't know that part of the story honestly, and I totally get it. You don't want to be just rushed into office, like you say, with two or three people standing around. If you're going to ascend and have any authority, you should have been given the dignity of a decent inauguration ceremony.

That sounds right, she will get at least that. What else did you need to do during transition that Kathy Hochul would also be doing right now?

David Paterson: Brian, I have to tell you, there were not many things that I did in those five days that were helping me become governor. What I was doing in those five days is staving off these ridiculous situations that were coming my way. For instance, my secretary was approached by another person who worked in government, who advised my secretary that when the governor resigns that the lieutenant governor doesn't automatically take over.

This happened in a restaurant, as the Charles O'Byrne said to me, "Everyone in the restaurant stopped talking and looked and listened to this conversation." He said to this state worker, "Well, why would that be the case?" The response was, "Someone has to certify that he's next in line to lead the state and that person is me and that's not going to happen until we have a meeting." Charles schedules the meeting for 2:30 the next day and I told Charles I wasn't going to the meeting and to tell this person, if they would like to explain to billions of people why I'm not next in line to become governor, they should go ahead and do that. Also, when I become governor, everybody on the second floor has to resign so I'd like them to know in advance that I'm accepting their resignations.

There would just these people who would position themselves. Another person, Brian, very quickly, called me and kept calling me. This person had served at the highest levels of government and I said, "Hey, calm down, just give me a week. I'm not going anywhere." They said, "No, this is very important. Governor Spitzer was going to put me in as head of this agency on April 1st and I want to know if you would support that because you're the governor now. You don't have to put me there."

I said, "No, that's great. I'll do it." Well, I find out weeks later that the individual lied to me and I got a phone call from the person who was running the agency asking me, "Governor, if you want me to leave, I'll leave, but why are you all organizing my ouster behind my back?" I said, "Well, I thought everyone knew about it." Well, Brian, it turned out no one knew about it. It was a ruse. I could give you five more stories like that including a lobbyist who was dating one of my staff members.

When we were planning at my home that I owned in Guilderland, he's sitting outside calling his girlfriend telling her that he needs to come in and talk to me for a few minutes.

Brian Lehrer: Geez. The message to Kathy Hochul is be aware of a lot of intrigue, and subterfuge, and deception on the part at very least that people who want to be named commissioner of one thing or another and other people with interests starting right now.

David Paterson: A few of those people made the mistake in the past couple of days of calling me about reaching out to Hochul about things that do not have to be addressed right now and I summarily told them that. There was a lot of-- There's instability, but I have to say this, Brian, I think that this legislature, the senators and the assembly members and all the staff that have worked there have handled themselves with the utmost professionalism. I'm proud of them.

They weren't running around as if there was a hurricane coming as it was when I was coming into office. I think they had more time to think about what they should be saying. I think those who would have voted on the impeachment and those who would have voted to bring the impeachment have handled themselves very maturely. Maybe the experience of what happened the last time will help to make the atmosphere a lot calmer than it was when I was entering the executive office.

Brian Lehrer: We'll continue in a minute with former governor, David Paterson. We'll start taking your phone calls for Paterson who, like Kathy Hochul is doing now, ascended from lieutenant governor when his boss had to resign because of a scandal. 646-435-7280. Stay with us.

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Bria Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC with former governor, David Paterson. Charles in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Charles.

Charles: Brian, thanks so much for this opportunity. I wanted to say that Kathy Hochul, I think that they should have the-

Brian Lehrer: Hochul.

Charles: Yes, I'm not saying it correctly. Thank you for that. They should have the investigation because she's talking about cleaning the house out in Albany, that investigation would help her do a better job, so I think it needs to go through. Thank you for your guest, Paterson, because a good lawyer friend of mine that I really liked very much ran against them and lost, Galen Kirkland, years ago.

Brian Lehrer: Charles, thank you very much. Governor, what do you think about his sentiment that it would help Governor Hochul if the assembly continues its investigation and gets everything on the table about Cuomo?

David Paterson: Well, first, I just want Charles to know that when I ran for the Senate, I ran it against Galen Kirkland, maybe the most prepared candidate I ever met in my life. 23 years after I beat him for the Senate, I made him my human rights commissioner. When I told him, he said to me, "So you weren't kidding when you said that you actually really liked me?" He served myself and Governor Cuomo. In terms of his point, I think he's absolutely right.

Now, I didn't work in the governor's office, but I knew there was a toxic environment with the employees there. I knew a lot of them and some of them were people who were holdovers from my administration and it was really not a big secret. Everybody was aware of just the fear that was generated towards staff members. A lot of people have come forward to criticize some of these women about these situations that they've brought to the attention of the attorney general's panel.

Walk a mile in their shoes, very difficult place to work. There was people summarily got rid of for almost minor things. There's a state police person that said that in the governor's car, they were not allowed to talk to him. All they did was drive the car. There are always two officers in the front seat and the governor sits in the back seat. One of them asked him if he wanted a soft drink at a rest stop and was moved off the detail the next day. Really vindictive, angry situations.

I agree that the investigation should continue because I think that the environment will change as soon as Governor Hochul puts her stamp on it. I'm not sure that everybody is just relieved by the fact that the leadership, meaning the governor and the top staff members, have left the scene.

Brian Lehrer: Juliette in Newark. You're on WNYC with former governor, David Paterson. Hi, Juliette.

Juliette: Hi, Brian. Good morning. Good morning, Governor Paterson. Brian, thank you for taking my call again. My question is Governor Spitzer resigned because of a sexual scandal. Why would Governor Cuomo find himself in the same situation? He came in, he did a lot of progressive things. I'm no Cuomo fan, but my question is why did he find himself in the same situation? I'll go this far to say the toxic situation could only carry on, I blame Governor Cuomo for what he did, but he had to have enablers.

It had to have people know. I work in corporate America for 40 years. When something is going down in the office, or when a boss is a predator, it goes around, it's an open secret, and everybody will know. It had enablers that Cuomo could have gotten this far. One question I want to ask the young lady that say he groped her twice. If you go to his office and he groped you the first time, why would you go back to his office the second time? Because of once bitten, I was told twice shy.

Brian Lehrer: Juliette, I hear you. She's put a couple of tough questions on the table there, governor. You have any responses?

David Paterson: Well, first of all, I don't agree with her. She works for the governor. She was ordered to come and by the way, that office was in the executive mansion, which is very ominous because I lived in the executive mansion for three years. There is an office on the second floor, but the office is used by the head of the mansion, that's their office. Because it's the family quarters, they never use that office much.

Having a staff member come into that particular office or to the second floor of the mansion itself is highly unusual. There's a third floor where there are some rooms and it's kind of like an entertainment center and I had guests there, but that was odd. The thing is she works for him. They told him he said to come there and that's, by the way, what the governor's office is disputing.

They are saying there was no email telling her to come there, but it's very easy to tell people what they should have done once [unintelligible 00:29:38], whatever it is. It's different when you there. This woman is, I believe, 31 years old, so this happened when she was 28 or 29. She is basically a secretary and just couldn't respond.

Brian Lehrer: You do what you're told.

David Paterson: You just switch it [inaudible 00:30:01] . About these enablers, clearly the governor was not the one. These are the enablers who took the complaints of two of the women and exacted retribution on them by leaking one of them to the press. They had a letter that was actually going to be written by a very pro woman's rights advocate condemning this complaint. She's right.

What happens is you attract what you are. If you're a person who likes to bully people around, you attract those types to come and work for you, and that's what they did to these two women. Guess what? Those enablers are not out of trouble yet.

Brian Lehrer: Right. It also shows lack in Cuomo, a failure of Cuomo to appoint the kind of aide, at least somewhere in the chain, at least as far as we know. We don't know everything, but at least as far as we know, someone to take him aside after one or another of these incidents as they were happening and saying, "Governor, you can't talk to people like that. You can't have those kinds of suggestive conversations. You can't touch them like that even if you think you're being affectionate."

Giving him the benefit of the doubt there. "Just watch it," like a loyal person would do to a boss in many workplaces.

David Paterson: Here again, Brian, we come back to his press conference-- I want to say March 3rd it could have been of this year, when he had an opportunity to go over these incidents and talk about how poorly he acted. I don't think we'd be sitting here right now on August 12th talking about his resignation. Apparently, what happens to some people is they think they can do whatever they want and get away with it. I'll just tell you this quick story, Brian.

We'll go right back to where this show began. When Andrew Cuomo found out that Spitzer was picking me as his running mate, the idea that when Spitzer left and then I'd be running for governor and by then, you would think an African-American could win a governor's race, he called Spitzer's office and told his staff that when you take David Paterson, all these issues are going to come out about him. You're going to be sorry you did it.

He erratic, he's a disloyal, and all these things. Spitzer basically told Andrew Cuomo what he could do with himself and he was going to pick me anyway. At that point, Andrew calls back and tells the Spitzer people, "Well, listen, I'm just trying to help you. I'm a friend, but please don't tell David Paterson because I'm going to have to work with him." They informed Andrew that they had already told me that he did that.

Andrew called me up and I swear this to God and said to me, "David, I didn't do it. I didn't do it. They're trying to divide us."

Brian Lehrer: Wow.

David Paterson: I said, "Andrew, what do we have to divide? We're not married. We don't have a business together." When he did that, that day, I thought to myself, "This is someone I would never trust for the rest of my life." The problem actually with me was I didn't think about that when I became governor.

Brian Lehrer: That's some story about Andrew Cuomo. I imagine--

David Paterson: Let me just tell you before any denial comes, Richard Baum who was the secretary to the Senate, Darren Dopp, who was the press advisor to Spitzer and also had worked for Mario Cuomo and a good friend of Andrew's. Andrew and I know that I told that story exactly the way it happened.

Brian Lehrer: If he's that good a liar, it must've given you a certain take on his resignation speech and his line in these last few months where he says, number one, I didn't do it on the most serious charges. Number two, I didn't know that it was wrong. I'm just an old guy who was out of touch with contemporary standards.

David Paterson: Brian, when he said to me-- and these were his words and let me be struck down by a lightning bolt if this is inaccurate, "I swear on my mother's grave I did not tell Spitzer to get rid of the idea of you being lieutenant governor." He said that to me. At one point when I was governor, one of my fundraisers said, "Something that's really funny is all the people who are friends of Cuomo, who used to contribute to your campaigns have stopped doing it?"

I said to this woman, "At this point, I'm tired of all the conspiracy theories. I'm just trying to do my job here. There's probably some other reason that they haven't contributed to my campaign or something like that." I missed signals that I wasn't getting support from that area of the government.

Brian Lehrer: June in the Bronx, you're on WNYC with David Paterson. Hi, June. Thanks for calling in.

June: [unintelligible 00:35:23].

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead, June. We got you. What's your question.

June: Now, I and some other [inaudible 00:35:33] that we hang out with [inaudible 00:35:35] Kathy Hochul in that of environment. For me, as I'm [unintelligible 00:35:36] her alleging that she wasn't aware of any of these things that were taking place [inaudible 00:35:47] with Governor Cuomo.

Brian Lehrer: I'm going to jump because your line is really bad, but I get your question. June doesn't believe, and she says she and a group of friends don't believe that Kathy Hochul, as lieutenant governor, wasn't aware of the toxic workplace environment and some of these other things that had been alleged. Do you find it credible?

David Paterson: I think that Kathy Hochul who has to spend the next two weeks working on a transition with the governor's office would not want to be saying very much. In fact, I think she said a lot yesterday when she condemned the conduct as per the ruling of the attorney general's report. I wouldn't say that she was being deceptive at all. I would just say she's in a position where she has still got to depend on them to get information and a lot of things done in the next two weeks.

I don't think she just wanted to get into that too much. What she said was that there's no way that when she leaves office, anyone will ever say there was a toxic work environment in her office. I think that that's sufficient.

Brian Lehrer: Let me ask you two quick things before we run out of time. These are big things, so they're worthy of have more time than we have, but you became the state's first Black governor this way after a white guy resigned in a sex scandal. Hochul is becoming the state's first woman governor in this way after a white guy is resigning over a sexual harassment scandal. Did it affect the challenge in any way of being the first because of how it came about?

David Paterson: No, I don't think that it did. Certainly, the issue of the scandal was bigger than the fact that there was now an African-American governor in New York. The issue of the scandal is going to be bigger than the fact that Kathy Hochul is the first woman governor of New York. All I can say to future candidates think not of running for governor run for lieutenant governor. It's easier.

Brian Lehrer: [laughs] Given the history of New York, you're just as likely to rise up. Well, how well do Kathy Hochul? What about Hochul on the progressive to moderate scale? Cuomo, I don't have to tell you was pretty disliked by many in the legislature's most progressive wing who saw him as resisting various progressive policies until they became politically inevitable.

How much do you think we're in for more of the same with Kathy Hochul? She said in the clip that we played that she supports Cuomo's policies.

David Paterson: I met Kathy Hochul when she had an event for me when I was running for lieutenant governor. I've known her for 15 years and we have communicated a lot over that period of time, so I know her very well. Listen, she comes from upstate New York and Western New York and the Genesee Valley, and different places up there have a different point of view than most people who live in New York City.

That's why Republicans had been able to win the gubernatorial races for three times with Governor Pataki and with Governor Rockefeller before him. It is a diverse point of view from how we may look at things in New York City. However, I think one of the key issues of human rights and, minority and women's business enterprises and equality in the workplace and that kind of thing, I think New Yorkers will be very happy with Kathy Hochul.

Now, if it's an issue of defunding the police, she isn't going to feel that way, but even the poll showed that only 15% of Democrats in New York City feel that the police should be de-funded. Sometimes, the radical voices get a lot more time than they get votes.

Brian Lehrer: Former governor, David Paterson, among other things, author of the book that just came out late last year, he was on the show for that his last appearance. Black Blind, & in Charge: The Story of Visionary Leadership and Overcoming Adversity. Good luck with your own latest talk show with Catsimatidis. There's so much more we could have done. We'll have to have you back.

David Paterson: Well, it's always a pleasure, Brian. You are as good an interviewer as I've ever been privileged to witness.

 

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