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And now W Y N Y C Does ends says he close up each week at this time Seymour M. Siegel interviews people in public affairs on issues of current interest and now here is Mr Siegel. How do you do medicine Gentlemen welcome to Sunday close up we're delighted to have as our guests on this edition of city close up the chairman of the state commission for human rights Mr George follower the director of Community Services for the early Defamation League of the lay brother was to Alex Miller Gentlemen welcome to city close up thank you Alex Miller you were some time ago completed a leg there was a little brochure as a crisis without violence the story there were a hot summer. Summer is virtually all this June twenty first an important day and I believe it has an important thing going rather than the fact that it's the first day of summer Well it is very important for us to Noora shall because that marked the day when we had an incident in the community which almost led to a to violence and riots in the streets of never a shelter but I almost forgot to indicate that you're the chairman of the Human Rights Commission who are shall That's right this isn't a volunteer capacity and. Room rary dam for two reasons one not only because of the local problem but also standing as a shadow in the background was the fact that I'm that very day three dedicated young civil rights records making Shriner and James Chaney and a young man named Goodman had disappeared in Mississippi and. That was interested in civil rights or all over the country were terribly concerned about this and it led to. A heightening of tension in local communities and we shall we had an abridgement sit in where and a young negro lad was hit in the head during the course of a rest by a policeman and this resulted in some fifteen hundred negroes appearing at city hall and this large crowd could have very easily. With the addition of an incident or two been turned into a mob scene with the resulting disturbance on the street what this Brooklyn attempts to do is to show how we tried to detour violence in near a shell and were successful in doing so we would talk more about the contents of this book but judge for our first ride like to ask you if you would. What our explorers will tell you about took place just a year ago yes while I was a situation today compared to list year. While I would say that the situation today. Afros greater hope than and often last year for a successful resolution of the problems between amongst people based on race color creed on national art and Alex was talking about and you of course add a little bit to the historic date. Of June the twentieth. Well it came to my mind that. This is really not a problem for one season of the year it's a problem that I actually have to be worked on throughout the if you're going to have good human relations one of the things that we are. Proud to start at the State Commission for Human Rights is our relationship with the local human rights agencies we believe that the best work on this problem can be done must be done at the local level and I won't embarrass Alex by a compliment complimenting him more than once here but I do want to say that in my judgment the New Rochelle human rights agency led by Alex Miller. Is really the the symbol quat people in the local community can do to resolve this problem we as you may know. Have a liaison with the forty four civil rights are human rights commissions throughout the state. Many of these commissions came into being as a result of Governor Rocca follows a. Direction to us and that the commission that is the work of the state commission for human rights should be closer to the people and this is the vehicle through which we have been able to push the ball forward one last thought that I'd just like and mention Alec said when he was introduced that he's a volunteer and he doesn't get paid and this is true. I happen to be paid I get paid a decent salary I do believe that one of the real needs is that the human rights agencies commissions even on the local level should have the kind of budget that will allow people who are dedicated to spend full time. Doing the way the research the recommendation was made here in the Rock City and as a direct going to a high school. You're talking about the littler shell commercial. Virus programs and through those but the commission was established back there in December nineteenth sixty three on the mind of a reporter that went out of office of January first when you suddenly find yourself. With a new met with a new man from a different party where they want to tell us all but as well as that first of all I don't want to turn your program into a mutual admiration society but nevertheless let me say that our commission came into being directly because of the wreck of the New York state commission and as a result of the letter which our mayor received from Governor Rockefeller we were. Placed into orbit so to speak actually a part of the first thing that any commission has to do is to establish communication not only with members of the community but strangely enough even with that city government which has appointed it and some of the commissions around the country which have stubbed their toes in trying to work in local communities are one who are ones who have never I that established communications with their local city from others there are if they have established communication going the wrong kind then the city government has never really understood what the purpose what the philosophy in and read the various human rights commissions were trying to go or totals were a bit about what happened in New A shot was January nineteenth sixty four and we sat down and we sat down with the mayor and with the city council and we had we had a special meeting at which we were all the members of our commission were present in the city council were present and really attempted at that time to explain what our purpose is and were and why we felt that commission like this working actively to wipe. Discrimination in New Rochelle Rudd helped the image of this community throughout the country an image incidentally which had been marred only a few years previously due to right a school controversy when what where one of our schools because of a de facto situation was completely segregated and I think that what we have done in the results of this booklet incidentally which is being distributed quite widely by the federal government and by the state commission will help the image of nurse shelter a great deal well talking about the commercial was about six months old that's right when those first incident took place and you describe it I mean where in my patrol. Uses club on a young negro boy was at the end so that's correct what happened after the route of the first thing that happened was really problem of what you do in the evening when fifteen hundred people are storming city hall and surrounding it and how do you prevent violence at that point this is your crucial problem you can't worry about long term problems then and what we tempted to do then was to establish communication between the group literally we sat all night long in the police commissioner's office with a committee from the group outside meeting with the police commissioner and discussing the problems with him at the same time I must say that that the police of no Rochelle exhibited a rare amount of insight and understanding and leaned over backwards to make sure that no other incident with a car which might set the crowd off for example at one point some of the ardent youngsters in the group ran out on North Avenue which is the main street and laid down in front of traffic the police didn't try to remove them as you were often see in some of the television shows where by brute force and. Which can excite onlookers rather they just they simply detoured they do too or traffic at that moment and think crest of the angry situation need help still some passions and this is the first thing that you have to do with start communicating and then you have to begin planning to take some action if you are given the time when there is no longer violence on the shores from the well how do you begin communicating well I was happy to raise a question because I have a feeling that they are many people who believe that communication consist primarily of the utterance of words across a table point simple fact is that people are perceptive. Many times eloquence as we know comes from not a word being spoken and I have a feeling that one of the big problems in the resolution of problems between the races today is that there is a misconception as to what. Each of them feels is the proper relationship. I have. Rather a favorite analogy that I like to talk about. In regards to this problem has to do with labor management relations. Many years ago the big conflict between labor and management was that Labor had the impression whether rightly or wrongly and I think it was justified in many instances that industry look down it's no use at labor at the working man I had the feeling that it was the period and it was on that basis that many of us begin to stress at one time refused to sit at the bargaining table as equals to discuss problems. Oh they were quite willing on the way home to pad John on the back and say you're a nice fella and to hear his problems and sometimes to reach in the pocket and pull out a five dollar bill and give it to him but this kind of communications in quotes was not satisfactory because the working man wanted the dignity to which he felt he was deserved as an American citizen and that's why we had collective bargaining and that's why he sat at the table and traded his thoughts and observations and came to some solution that was not a pretend listed solution given out by industry but it was an agreement reached as equals now in the same sense. It seems to me that one of the great problems in communications today between. Negroes and whites and Puerto Rican other groups is that there's a lack of recognition of the fact that rather person is a negro Puerto Rican Jew Catholic Protestant to begin with he's an individual and he wants to be at Cardiff and is demanding to be caught in the same respect that all others had I think that perhaps the reason why. The New Rochelle commission Human Relations Commission was successful was because the Negro community since. Aside from the words they look beyond the words they send a basic feeling on the pot on the commission and those who were instrumental. In. These meetings that they believe that it was right for each person to be treated equally without regard to his race or color creed and that they felt that the time was not now and not in some FOD distance you I want to underscore where George Fowler has just said in the way of communication because somewhere often you get a group. Of racially diverse people around the table you will find that for the first hour or the first meeting or perhaps in the first three meeting they're not talking with each other they're talking as each other and each one is not listening to what the other one is saying or if they do listen doesn't quite comprehend because each rally to the people seem to be sitting at the table. And they kind of the same setting each one brings to the table a host of different experiences and that different people around there and their interpretation what the other person is saying in light of what he what his own experiences are and it's very hard for a person coming from a very nice apartment not having not ever having been hungry to really understand what the other guy is saying who comes from a slum apartment from time to mend and has seen his kids. Go hungry at times and without enough clothes on and it's the establishing this communication is job number one or you're behind a lot of the exact And by the way George that was the analogy thank you much but I think the question now is I come back to my original question how do you go about establishing the true ring of confidence and thereby bring about the rubric. Early credibility Well let me take the first crack judge and then I know you're full of us it takes first of all it takes time and patience and one of the problems today of course is that there are many young sever rights leaders who are losing their patients so it's not giving many of us enough time to do that with some of these problems but it takes time and a beginning and an understanding faith in the fact that the other person is coming to the table rather motivated that that is you have a starting point the second thing is this is that the city officials and government officials have to set up a kind for loss of food for themselves which people gradually will understand a municipal human rights agency is not a local chapter of core of the N.A.C. P. or the Chamber of Commerce or of the NE breast of the Council of Churches it represents or other people it's a government agency and as such while it must define its global goals as that of the Lebanon discrimination it has to be completely fair and objective well that there's going to be time before you can get over to the general public and to the partisans of various groups of the protagonists of special points of view of the fact that objective and you have to simply live with the situation another thing that a human rights agency has to do I'm sure this is true in the state level as well as the Minister for level is that you recognize when you take this job that you're not running in any popularity contest as well as the price in the middle of your bread at the time you're going to get clobbered by both sides no. Excuse me for being a bit personal but today it's my day for knowledge is good I was thinking. About a family situation. I was a PA and with five children. And we. I would sit around the dining room table. My father and mother would sit at the head of the table and we had discussed various subjects and my father was usually the. Presiding over the dentist nothing stiff about it but it's a no George what do you think no matter what the subject was and then he would ask my brother what he thought Carol what do you think when they all and what do you think would go around the table and then my father would express his views not in an effort to demean our youthful ideas on. Perhaps I even runs on many subjects but. To show leadership and my mother would express our views and there were times when my mother would have one view my father would have enough but there was the great respect for the right Abita of us to have his own view now to me this is communication on one level it's awfully important. We cannot afford to root any group out of the discussions in relationship to the problems so off times I think Alex. Sort of suggested this so I have time and we put ourselves many of us as a know it all as people who are going to tell this fella in the salon what's good for him and what he should do what we ought to tell but we should also let him tell us what his problem is and by getting the views of people by involving them by getting all the ideas out on the table which I think is maybe a great hindrance to this whole problem there are too many people frankly who are just simply phony on this issue they talk out of both sides of their mouths in both communities they are whites who will say. Things at the bar at. Table that sound good but we'll go home and say I think there's a limit. To How far as they enter go they're negroes who will sit at the table and say Well I think you're nice fella and I know you're trying but go back in the community and say I could see through that for what he's really not honest where would it have been better if you really want to get the truth and you want to resolve the problem for both parties to have the integrity to say to each other what they really felt and feel and this to me is the great need one last observation I made on this subject I'd like to make I think that it has been most unfortunate. And that this whole field has been given. Publicity in many instances that I believe does more harm than to help i'm be the first person to say that every citizen has a right to freedom of speech and to express themselves before television cameras on the radio or any other forum but I do believe that. There are to be a great deal of responsibility and sensitivity on the part of the press and the mass communications media. That would suggest that irresponsible statements and statements that do really not represent mature thinking are represent the thinking of the majority of people are significant numbers of people can do a great deal of harm and you see civil rights leaders and. Many times a person is not a civil rights leader he might be just a person who expresses his views and has a few people to follow and now he has that right but the responsibility of the government and of those of us who are gravely concerned about this problem should bring to bear influence now on the mass communications media so that they will portray a true picture in order that the majority of the citizens might not get the wrong impression has to the direction in which this whole human rights revolution is taking Oh I'd like to rise to the bait of that. There's obviously is not an easy job coming to a judgment as to what time to. Perhaps the mass media have not been as responsible as they could be but we again coming to this question will grow while. Moore is talking about the road to create this feeling takes time or it seems to me that those calling for more time mischaracterise to paper and we were so sure really what the southern states there was we heard great. Now that just because you call for time doesn't mean that you're going to that you're negating doing things but there are so many of these problems that we face that are complex and subtle and difficult that no matter how much how many black headlines just see in the papers that are not going to be solved overnight and no matter what picket lines of No matter what rash statements are made and this is what you are just as talking about then there is a fine line that newspapers that television that every form of mass media must drill and it's time particularly in a time of crisis if you want to really dig to a violence between inflammatory statements from people who really don't have any following to the very rather reasoned statements of people who have spent a lifetime in the work now the first might be better news it would be an awful lot better program here George and I almost came to blows and controversy but but but integrity is also a basic part of the problem and it's also a basic part of what you're trying to do in a as a sphere of human rights and we have no room we have no room for what he called for the phony controversy judge Tyler I think that one of the big problems that we face in the field of communications is the problem of semantics and words mean different things to different people are anti-Semitic That's right and I think that we have to be especially careful to project the impact to the best of our ability the usage of aware for an example. The use of the term gradualism. Is unfortunate if it's used. As a term that is support it that's unfortunate because there are certain connotations there are many people who want to feel that you've got a slow progress. I know exactly what my good friend Alex means and I'm in a car with his concept I would say however that it's conceivable that there are some people who would say who would interpret. It takes time to mean that well all right let's go a little easy things and I know and think I will develop I love you I don't mean that I just wanted to emphasize that let's take the word of the term preferential treatment is most unfortunate that that term was used the person who used it is a dear friend of mine Stan Laurel my believe to be a very honest and dedicated person I think Stan would probably now say well gee I mean it was garbled in terms of interpretation but to many people preferential treatment is a red flag. Which brings to bear some of their prejudices there are some people who want the status quo and they say well we've got to not move very far farther because any further because this would be preferential treatment now as a matter of fact concept surely we have all recognized over the years I shouldn't say we all but many people and many forces in this nation have recognized the need of doing something special to eliminate the present. Discrimination. Against Negroes or any other group and when you explain it not in terms of words but in terms of a concept it's much easier it's much easier and this is what I was sure Roger if I can quote myself as being when I was I think you. Know one of the things one of the things that. I've been trying to say is that we've lived so long under equal but separate doctrine that it's time now that we live under an equal but special doctrine and it is true that if we're going to really make progress and make progress as rapidly as we can that special treatment has to be accorded times for special. Cases because of without this special help it's it's going to take much longer than we should in our society and this is not unique only in relationship to negroes I mean let's take for an example your veteran situation I'm sure I never would probably would not have the opportunity go to college had it not been for the G.I. Bill let's take the Sunday law for example which I think that it was right and prop up. To recognize the propriety of people who worship on Saturday not having to close the store on Sunday now if you could go on and on of course but it it seems to me that the subtleties in this whole field are such where we have to be almost a use of the kind of language where we can not be misunderstood and one of the problems now is that language is being used that is offending a lot of people but is nevertheless at least understandable and so when. Someone marches say we want freedom now in this my job people it might make some among happy but they mean the hat and at least everyone knows what the frame of reference it is to serve because we only have a few seconds was one of America's another point of growth had you got Ralitsa very very very sure I'd point to that going back to the analogy that George gave of his own family that we are a shallow now trying to work out a blueprint for progress when we don't have a crisis situation and rolling the entire community right and Negro always well we hope you guys are back some other time to talk about this has been a great publish first and I was our guests on this edition of so they close up George Fowler the chairman of the New York State Commission on Human Rights and Alexander Mela the director of Community Services for the any definition Lee will see will. Again next week at a close up a weekly series of interviews in which Seymour N. Siegel interviews people in public affairs today Mr Siegel's guests were Mr Alex Miller director of Community Services for the N.T. Defamation League of B'nai B'rith and chairman of the New Rochelle Human Rights Commission and Mr George founder chairman of New York State Commission for Human Rights city close up was directed by John Baird.