Gov. Cuomo Announces Plans to Reopen New York by Mid-May

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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning everyone. Today is another consequential day in figuring out how to reopen safely and live with COVID-19 and some states are doing it very differently from others. Remember last week when Mayor de Blasio announced that everything could reopen without capacity limits in New York City beginning on July 1st. Well, Governor Cuomo upstaged de Blasio, yet again. The governors of New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut announced jointly yesterday that everything may open without limits on May 19th.

de Blasio's rationale for July 1st was to give the city that much more time to reach approximately five million city residents vaccinated. The three governors apparently don't care about that standard but instead will require either six-foot distancing at indoor venues, high partitions around tables in restaurants if they're less than six feet apart, or proof of vaccination or a negative test.

Governor Cuomo: It's six feet but if you say, "Look, I'm only going to allow press in the room who are fully vaccinated. I'm only going to allow people in the restaurant who are fully vaccinated or just took a negative test." Then you can go above the six feet.

Brian Lehrer: It's full capacity with that caveat. If you can't maintain six feet, then either high partitions or proof of vaccination or a negative COVID test to get in. That's for New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut beginning May 19th. Now in Florida, Governor Ron DeSantis is going further full reopening but a ban on vaccine requirements, private businesses won't even be allowed to voluntarily require proof of vaccines. Here's DeSantis recently.

Governor Ron DeSantis: It's completely unacceptable for either the government or the private sector to impose upon you the requirement that you show proof of vaccine to just simply be able to participate in normal society.

Brian Lehrer: Apparently in Florida, your right to your COVID status being private trumps someone else's right to know if you're a COVID risk to them. Competing definitions of freedom. DeSantis chooses the freedom to infect, without transparency. The Northeast governors are choosing the freedom to know you're in a COVID-free enclosed space. We'll get three takes this hour and we'll take your questions and comments first on the new Local Rules. Second on what it means that the US will likely never reach herd immunity. How we manage the virus since there are too many vaccine-resistant people to eradicate it.

Then we'll look specifically at the reopening of the New York City subways for 24-hour service now scheduled for May 17th. We'll also touch on the new vaccine eligibility expected to come next week for 12 to 15-year-olds. With us first, Ben Yakas, arts and culture editor at Gothamist. His article today, New York To Reopen Without Most Capacity Restrictions By May 19th. Hey, Ben. Welcome back to the show.

Ben Yakas: Hey, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: What's the difference between the July 1st reopening that de Blasio announced last week and the May 19th reopening the governor announced yesterday? Don't say six weeks.

Ben Yakas: I think the generous view of the difference is that Governor Cuomo was doing this in conjunction with New Jersey and Connecticut. During his press conference yesterday, he really stressed the fact that the tri-state area is really interlocked together. Anytime one state makes really big rule changes, it's incumbent on the other states to do so as well because there's so much travel within these three states together. I think that's the generous look at it. The not as generous look is that de Blasio his big reason for giving the July 1st date was to give the city and the state more time to get more people vaccinated. In the six weeks that it would take to get to July 1st, there would be maybe another million or two people at least who would get vaccinated. Cuomo wanted to one-up him, I think is the general feeling among the press corps.

Brian Lehrer: Did Cuomo get asked specifically whether that extra million or two million people who'd be vaccinated by July 1st don't matter?

Ben Yakas: [chuckles] He didn't get it today. I have a feeling it's something if he doesn't other press events because he has not done a lot of open press events in recent months for-- I imagine a lot of listeners can guess that. I think everyone is just reacting to this big news, but I think this is something that is going to come up especially as we get closer to May 19th.

Brian Lehrer: Now, am I reading this right that stadiums like Yankee Stadium and Citi Field can only go to 33% capacity not 100% on May 19th. Do I have that right?

Ben Yakas: Yes. Stadiums and arenas have the most restrictions still but Cuomo did say that they are going to look into ways to expand this more. The implication is, I think they're talking to the people who own the stadiums and arenas about how they can do more with vaccinated people to provide more seating. For example, for people who are vaccinated versus people who are not vaccinated because when you have unvaccinated people, you have to leave more room for everyone to spread out still.

Brian Lehrer: Right. Currently, they do have that vaccine or negative test proof requirement at the ballparks. In a way, they're already complying with what the rules seem to be for full reopening.

Ben Yakas: Yes. Yet I think having the larger gathering because it's so many more people than in every other scenario that we're talking about because right now if you're talking about live arts and entertainment, let's say regular music venues, there's still a social gathering limit of 500 people outdoors and 250 indoors and that is with proof that they've either been vaccinated or had a recent negative test. We're talking with stadiums of thousands of people. We're already multiplying those numbers pretty big.

Brian Lehrer: It's not just the stadiums. There will also be some size limits on whether places of any kind can go to full capacity after May 19th?

Ben Yakas: In terms of the larger size venues, yes.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Now listeners, if you have any questions or comments about these new reopening roles announced by the three governors in New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut yesterday, 646-435 WNYC. For Gothamist arts and culture editor, Ben Yakas, 646-435-7280 or tweet @BrianLehrer. I started to explain in the intro and we've gone over it a little bit the rules under which these places will be able to go to full capacity. Is there more to layout for us to understand what will really be required for a restaurant? In fact, let me read from your article a little bit.

It says, "Cuomo said this will affect retail stores, gyms and fitness centers, amusement parks, hair salons, and barbershops, offices, Broadway theaters, museums, restaurants, and bars. He added that individual venues and businesses could make their own decisions about whether they're ready to reopen in May. Most Broadway shows, for instance, won't be able to resume productions immediately but the option is there." With all of those kinds of venues in mind, do you have anything more to add to what the rules will be for them?

Ben Yakas: Yes. Cuomo announced all this and it was like, "Wow, we are really reopening." Then he put in a little asterisk which is the CDC six-foot social distancing guidance is still in effect. What that means is take a museum, for example, you still are expected to space people out when possible even with everything. The restaurants, there are so many exceptions to this. It is confusing. It is very confusing. There is no really simple rollout of all these changes. It's still being massaged in real-time. For example, with restaurants, restaurants have to still place tables six feet from each other.

However, if a restaurant has a physical barrier between tables, if they have up some screen or something, they don't have to abide by the six-foot rule. If you walk into a restaurant and it's completely open, there's no barriers, the tables have to be spread out six feet. That obviously limits how much space indoors a restaurant can seat people. If you walk into a restaurant and you see that they have those plastic dividers or wooden dividers, or however they are putting barriers up, the seats can be as close as they can be with those dividers up.

Brian Lehrer: Listener tweets, high partitions don't work air flows around the space. It's not like the air is going to stay within the same table. This is theater. I don't expect you to have the scientific answer to that question, but is that something that you hear being raised elsewhere?

Ben Yakas: Yes, I think with a lot of the cleaning that we have seen. This comes up a lot with the subway. The fact that they're cleaning the subways, still a huge amount of people are saying, is this actually helping us? Is this actually doing anything on surfaces? The thing with barriers this has been discussed as well and it does seem a little bit arbitrary to make this distinction because it really only affects restaurants right now.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Here is Stuart in Malverne. You're on WNYC. Hi Stuart.

Stuart: Hey Brian. Thanks for having me on. One thing that's been on my mind for the last 15 years, I've organized a Harry Chapin tribute concert here on Long Island at the Eisenhower Park Theater, where he was supposed to play the night he died and it usually draws about 2000 people or so. The field itself has capacity of seven or 8,000, they can pack in that many for the 4th of July. I don't think the guidelines address an outdoor event where there's way more rooms than needed for that size crowd, so people can easily spread out safely but we haven't been given the go ahead yet to organize it this year.

Brian Lehrer: We should say about that Harry Chapin annual thing because we once did a segment on it, that's a charity benefit. That's not just people who liked Harry Chapin's music getting together for grants, right?

Stuart: Right. It's a food drive and a fundraiser for Long Island Cares. I think over the last 15 years, we've raised somewhere around seven tons of food, which sounds like a lot, but it's a drop in the bucket, but it keeps us his name and music and mission alive.

Brian Lehrer: You think the 2000 people could spread out six feet each? Is that what you're saying?

Stuart: Oh, very easily. If they put little circles in the grass or something like that with six feet between them, that there'll be plenty of room for everybody.

Brian Lehrer: All right, Ben. Yes or no?

Ben Yakas: This is a really interesting and important point because during his presentation yesterday, Cuomo left out large venues that are not stadium. This was not mentioned really during all of this, it wasn't one of the places that was given 100% go ahead and it wasn't under the 33% capacity rule like Citi Field and Yankee stadium. I followed up and the number that I was told was that for a venue, like the one he described 500 people outdoors is currently the limit. Now in a month or so that may be put up, but I think heading into May 19th, that is the number that is going to be the top most right now.

Brian Lehrer: Got to be safer than sitting in a little restaurant, I think, but maybe that'll change. Stuart good luck with it this year. I hope you get it off the ground. Gregory on Staten Island, who was a Broadway stagehand. Hi, Gregory on WNYC.

Gregory: Good morning gentlemen. Thanks for having me, great show. Always a listener, no matter which side of the coast I end up on. I've flown back and forth a number of times across the country and the last couple of flights have been cheek by jowl elbow-to-elbow and a five-hour flights or five-hour flight. You try to do your best to wear your mask the entire time and every once in a while, nibble on some food. I'm wondering what the reasoning or what the real protocol is. We're out of work for the entire pandemic and there's no end in sight. I can't sit in the Broadway seat. I can't even go back to work, but yet I can fly in an airplane for five plus hours and not see a three-hour Broadway show.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, there was so many complicated comparisons now. What do you think the governor would say about that, Ben?

Ben Yakas: What would the governors say about that? I think that the governor, if it were up to him would want to limit the amount of people on flights perhaps, but it is not up to him.

Brian Lehrer: Broadway is somewhat up to him, but if I understood your article right and the Cuomo clip that I heard on the news, Broadway theaters could reopen May 19th under these new reopening rules but they're independently, not on the verge of deciding that that's safe enough yet, or is that wrong?

Ben Yakas: It's not quite right. I think the main thing for Broadway right now is that it takes so much to put a production together that there's no way in two or three weeks, they could possibly get a major Broadway show up and running. I think the other element of it again is the six-feet social distancing rule. Broadway has to make a decision where are they going to be like stadiums? Are they going to require that people have been vaccinated and they show proof of that and therefore they can seat people all next to each other and fill up a theater, or are they not going to be able to do that and then they have to spread out and not be able to sell as many seats?

I would imagine the former, but I think that a lot of the theaters need to upgrade their HVAC systems. They need to do all the things that other businesses were doing throughout the pandemic to make sure that they feel comfortable, that their employees feel comfortable all coming back full-time. I think the Broadway League said we are aiming for the fall. They're aiming for September that's when they think they can safely and responsibly reopened with full theaters. I'd be very curious to see if any smaller theaters come back before then, but for the major theaters I wouldn't expect before September.

Brian Lehrer: Russell in Brooklyn, I think has a really interesting question about the dividers in restaurants from tables, not six-feet apart, or between tables not six-feet apart, which would now be allowed. Russell, you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.

Russell: Hi, Brian, thanks for taking my call. The comment I had just brought up by a friend of mine who smokes. She said, "Can we go back to smoking in restaurants?" If you can't get COVID due to these flimsy plastic dividers, can we smoke? It's an obvious, no, because it's obviously theater, but the questions of the governors should be, if this is safe for COVID, why can't we go back to smoking indoors?

Brian Lehrer: That's a great question because I've seen, and maybe this is going to be better for our next guest and listeners, we're going to have the New York Times science writer Apoorva Mandavilli, who a lot of people read her article from yesterday about if the US never reaches herd immunity, which is what the experts now think will happen because too many people are vaccine-- I called it resistant before.

Maybe a better word is hesitant. A listener points out. A vaccine resistant might imply that people don't respond to the vaccine when they get it. I'm thinking more of the resistance in a political sense. They won't get it and people who are vaccine-hesitant for other reasons, but apparently the experts think now we're never going to reach herd immunity in this country so it's going to be a matter of living with COVID in our presence and these kinds of rules that the governors were laying out are ways to live with COVID but have a life, a public life as well as a private life.

To Russell's point, I will ask Russell's question of Apoorva as a science writer, because Ben, I know I've seen at least one story that indicated that for scientists trying to figure out how COVID spreads and when you're at a safe distance from somebody who might be infected, cigarette smoke is a good stand-in because you can see cigarette smoke and cigarette smoke travels in the air, roughly like the Coronavirus. The caller's question is a great one.

Ben Yakas: It's a really interesting comparison. My understanding of the plexiglass dividers is that they are meant to stop the large spray droplets. If somebody is sitting near you and they cough, or they're a really loud talker, that will be stopped in theory but then there's a lot of the, if you think about smoking, if you blow a smoke into one of these things, the bulk of it gets pushed back or stopped, but then there's some that sneaks around it. I think that that's the same for COVID.

Brian Lehrer: That's a great point. The difference between the droplets, which are the larger size things that we might cough out or sneeze out, whatever, and the aerosols, which we just leave behind having been in a room, do the aerosols travel over the dividers like cigarette smoke or only the droplets and maybe Apoorva Mandavilli who's going to be on shortly will be able to answer that question. Kirk in Atlantic Highlands you're on WNYC. Hi Kirk.

Kirk: Good morning, Brian. Thank you so much for taking my call. I sit by the Raritan Bay in New Jersey and I look at New York city and I listened to your broadcast. We are close by and affected by each of our tri-state neighbors. My call is two prongs. I wanted to bring up what you said about the right in restaurants, right to infect versus the right to know if you're protected by other people being vaccinated. My question is, is it a legal matter? Can the restaurant say, from my establishment, I require a negative test or a vaccine to let you into my restaurant. Is that a legal thing that restaurants can do

Brian Lehrer: That is in New York. The difference between New York and Florida is so great as I understand it, and then, again, correct me if you think this is a misunderstanding in any way. The new difference between New York and Florida now is so vast that New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut will all require restaurants to do what Kirk just asked, which is have people prove their vaccination status or negative COVID test status if they're going to sit within six feet of each other? In Florida, businesses are prohibited from doing that even voluntarily.

Ben Yakas: That is right. Cuomo implied yesterday. He's not requiring that businesses show proof of vaccination, but he did encourage businesses. He sort of said that like this would incentivize people to get vaccinated if more businesses required vaccination proof. I think there's part of him that definitely wants to see more of that, but New York has not obviously set that standard yet, because we're still under 50% of people who have both of their shots or have been fully immunized right now.

Brian Lehrer: Sean in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Sean.

Sean: Hi. I just wanted to know if the racetracks are going to be open Aqueduct, Saratoga, and Belmont. Is Cuomo going to allow people to go to the track?

Brian Lehrer: I happen to see on TV on Saturday night that really great Kentucky derby. They have limited capacity, but they had 50,000 people. That's another southern state that's Kentucky with different kinds of political cultures that lined up with different county rules. Ben, can we say specifically about the Belmont Stakes or other races there?

Ben Yakas: Yes, they will be able to reopen at a lower capacity. The last update on that specifically was mid April, and it was set at 20%, I believe. I'm going to have to follow up because, again, it wasn't specifically mentioned yesterday, but I would imagine that it may be up to 33% now in line with arenas and stadiums.

Brian Lehrer: John in Hopatcong, you're on WNYC. Hi, John?

Jan: Jan.

Brian Lehrer: Jan, I'm sorry. Hi, Jan?

Jan: That's okay [laughs]. My husband and I, we center left, but he has a job where he gets to listen to the radio for a few hours a day, and he turns on a Right Wing station. Everyone there who calls into that station is claiming or saying that they are going to be forging the vaccine documents, because they're not going to get the vaccine, and they're not going to not go into places that prevent them because of the vaccine requirement. They fully plan using Photoshop or other computer thingies to forge documents. How are we going to handle this?

Brian Lehrer: I saw an article to this effect to that, the CDC official vaccine cards, forgery is a little rising industry in Trump world among Trump supporters, was the way it was cited in this one article that I saw. Ben, is this anything you know about?

Ben Yakas: Yes, I saw a similar report that this has been spreading among pro-Trump forums, Reddit sites and stuff. The CDC has asked states to remove their vaccine card templates from their websites, because I think that's where some of these people are getting the layouts for them.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. I guess we could do a separate segment on how easy it is to spot a forged COVID vaccine card, but we'll have to do that on another day with somebody who's more in those weeds. Pauline in Soho, you're on WNYC. Hi, Pauline?

Pauline: Hi, how are you? I love your show and thanks for keeping all of this suppressive all this stuff. Anyone who lives in downtown Manhattan like I do, with a plethora of bars and restaurants have known that for since the beginning of allowance into these places there hasn't been any six feet distances. These have been people on top of each other, some with masks and without at the beginning and now, it's just overrun. Now we've got later hours, there has been no policing of it or finding or checking up. I don't even know about the rules. What are they for? They're certainly not enforced in this neighborhood, the east village, Tribeca, Soho, Lower East Side.

Brian Lehrer: Pauline, it's a great question and I know it's true, all over the place, really, definitely not just in lower Manhattan. You see these signs outside a lot of venues because the law requires that say, masks required, or distancing required. You can almost see the winking emoji implied on the sign. I don't know. Will this be enforced differently now or will it be any safer than before?

Ben Yakas: I think this is something I was thinking about yesterday a lot and it's something we're going to be watching, and we're going to go out and talk to people and see what is happening. I think that the caller is correct. I think this is something that has little by little-- Go back to last summer, last fall, even last winter, the State Liquor Authority was empowered by Cuomo to really crack down on bars and restaurants who are breaking the rules. What we've seen this year is a little by little, there has been a lot less of that.

Brian Lehrer: Ben Yakas, arts and culture editor for Gothamist. Keep up the great work. Ben, thanks for coming on.

Ben Yakas: Thanks so much, Brian.

 

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