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Tiffany Hanssen: This is All Of It. I'm Tiffany Hanssen in for Alison Stewart. Thanks so much for spending part of your afternoon with us. It's been seven years since the Grenfell Tower Fire in London. Maybe you've seen photos of the tragedy. A large public housing complex in the center of London engulfed in flames, dozens of people were injured. 72 lives were lost, making it the deadliest residential fire in the UK since World War II.

A new play details what exactly happened inside the building using the firsthand accounts of 10 survivors. They take us through the night of the fire on June 14th, 2017. The play also sheds light on what it was like years before the incident, when residents of the Grenfell complained about neglect and mismanagement of their apartments, including faulty windows, broken elevators, improper placement of boilers.

The play also includes snippets of the public inquiry following the incident where management companies and public officials attempted to evade responsibility for the tragedy. All of these perspectives are weaved together in the play Grenfell: in the words of survivors. It's playing at St. Ann's warehouse in Brooklyn until this Sunday, May 12th. Joining us now to talk about it is playwright Gillian Slovo. Hi, Gillian.

Gillian Slovo: Hi.

Tiffany Hanssen: Welcome. Actors Mona Goodwin and Dominique Tipper. Mona and Dominique, welcome to All Of It. I hope I pronounced your names correctly.

Mona Goodwin: Yes, that was great. Hello [laughs].

Dominique Tipper: Hello. Nice to be here.

Tiffany Hanssen: Thank you for joining us. All right. Gillian, let's start with you. Just center for us for people who don't know where London-- They know where London is most likely, where in London this housing project is that we're talking about.

Gillian Slovo: Grenfell Tower was in a borough called the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, which is one of the richest of the local Boroughs in London in one of the richest cities in the world. The fire took place in the early hours of the morning and within 20 minutes, one side of the whole of the tower was a blaze, watched by people outside calling on people inside to get out. Also, watched by all of us in England and probably around the world in astonishment that a tower block of that many floors could actually catch light in that short period of time.

Tiffany Hanssen: You mentioned it's in the middle of a very wealthy neighborhood. Why is that context important to understand?

Gillian Slovo: I think this is a story of inequality as much as of anything else of a borough that had money. In fact, in England, we pay rates and that borough had just reduced the rates because they had so much money, and yet they did spend the money for social housing tenants to make sure that they'd be safe in their homes.

At the same time, these very tenants had actually known that there were things going wrong and had been trying to get the authorities to change what was happening within the building, but were ignored partly because they were poor or they were less rich than the rest of the borough, I'd say, because they weren't all particularly poor.

Tiffany Hanssen: You said most of the UK was watching with horror as this unfolded. You were one of those in Britain who was watching this tragedy take place. Is that when you decided you needed to write this?

Gillian Slovo: No, I think it was not immediately. At the time when it happened and in the weeks afterward, I, like many others, were just asking ourselves, "How could this have happened here and why had this happened?" After a month or two, it became obvious that this community, which is a very diverse and a very able community was being spoken about and spoken on the behalf of but were not actually being given their own voices.

That is one of the things that they complained about, is the media were in there and trying to get air quotes from them, but nobody really listened to what they had to say and nobody had listened to them before the fire. That is when I thought it's time to actually do a play about this, which uses their words so that the audience can listen to what their experiences was and what they had to say, and the tremendous amount they have to share with us.

Tiffany Hanssen: Mona, what were your experiences when you saw the horror unfolding on television and photographs of these flames and the stories coming out?

Mona Goodwin: I think as a lot of people maybe in the UK, we were all struck by the horror and the tragedy of what was happening. I think what perhaps we didn't understand initially or certainly myself, was the layer upon layer of systemic failings that had led to that fire. Actually, I probably didn't have a concept of the full extent of that until I was involved with this project, in all honesty, because the way the fire was represented in the media in the UK, particularly in some streams was not showing the full picture there.

Certainly, the way that the community and the people who lost their lives were represented was certainly incredibly skewed and incorrect. I think we didn't get a full picture of what had happened there and why what happened there happened. That's the fantastic thing that Gillian's play does, it peels back the layer upon layer upon layer over years and years and years and at the cause of this fire that in all honesty was not a horrible accident. Was an avoidable incident that unfortunately, through years and years of neglect and prejudice and a system that is built to not protect or value the lives of these kinds of people, it caused.

I think it's difficult to call it a tragedy at times because I think some people feel that actually, that suggests it was an unavoidable incident, a very sad event. Something that just happened. It's taken me through working on this project to really understand that that's not the truth of it at all.

Tiffany Hanssen: I do want to dig into that a little bit more, but before we do that, Dominique, you have a personal connection to this story, these people, the towers, all of it.

Dominique Tipper: Yes, I do, I think, on many levels. I do have a family member, it's my mom's fiancé’s family member that passed away in the tower. I also grew up in social housing, so Grenfell was such a reminder of how people like me growing up in London are regarded and like Mona said, how their lives are not valued and how the system-- When I was growing up in East London, to try and get anything done, to try and get anything fixed, to try and speak with these kinds of authorities to get anything done is virtually impossible.

For me, it's very triggering just because it's just a stark reminder of how the country operates when it comes to people in lesser classes. Also, I will say this. I think that what Grenfell also does is show you a very beautiful snapshot of the working class. I think there's always an idea that working-class and poor people hate their existence and hate where they live and want to be richer. In this rural borough of Kensington and Chelsea, they want to be like all the richer people around them.

I think what Grenfell shows you is just how beautiful the community was and how happy they are and how working-class people operate because of the kind of oppression they're constantly under and what they have to face daily. There is a real community there and so there is a lot of celebration in Gillian's play about the community, what it was before the fire, and actually, how the fire tore not only people's lives apart, but that community. I do also see this play as not only an eye-opener but a celebration of these people and their lives.

Tiffany Hanssen: Dominique, you mentioned this power in community. Gillian, I'm curious, how did the residents lean into their community, both before and after the fire?

Gillian Slovo: They lived in a tower block, so they knew each other quite well because they're always waiting for the elevators to come or not to come. The kids went to similar schools around there. They went to the same kind of clubs, and I think they knew each other pretty well, but I think after the fire is when they also really got to know each other because they needed each other so much. One of the reasons they needed each other so much was the government, both at a local and a national level, completely failed. It was like there was bright lights in their eyes and they were unable to mobilize. The people of Grenfell Tower and also of that community had to come together to help each other. Finally, after they had helped each other with the very initial needs that they had, which is to find out who had lived and who had died, but also to find housing for themselves, to find clothes for their back, to drink water. After they had done that, many of them came together in an organization called Grenfell United, whose aim was for the survivors and bereaved to support each other, but also to campaign together to make sure that this should never happen to anybody else.

One of the wonderful things-- It was quite difficult listening to some of the stories of the night of the fire. I had a lot of nightmares while I was doing the original research because it was so horrifying what people had gone through. Actually, the whole process of putting the play together has been an enormous privilege because what it shows is how ordinary people can be totally extraordinary in the face of systemic failure and the failure of the authorities to do anything that we voted them in for.

Tiffany Hanssen: Mona, did you have a chance to meet any of these extraordinary people?

Mona Goodwin: I have. I've been involved with the project for a few years now. We did some workshops and some of the survived and bereaved came and listened to initial readings. I don't think Gillian will mind me saying that in the beginning of this process, the play was a huge document, and it was a case of curating what was going to go in. All this information felt so crucial. They were consulted all along that process. It was such a nerve-wracking thing to speak these words in front of the real people. Not something I've experienced before, because the weight of responsibility does feel heavy on you as a performer.

Actually, over time, what I came to understand was it wasn't my role to impersonate Hanan. I play a wonderful woman called Hanan Wahabi. All I have to do is encapsulate her spirit and amplify her voice. Once I came to terms with the fact that that that was the simplicity of my job, it became a lot easier. Hanan and all the community that contributed to the play have been hugely supportive to us as actors. They've really just handed the baton onto us because they are tired, they are exhausted, they are completely depleted in telling this story and trying to be heard. I think the whole cast feel a real sense that it's now our turn to do that for them.

Tiffany Hanssen: Your character, Mona, is, as you mentioned, Hanan Wahabi, not a character, a person.

Mona Goodwin: Yes.

Tiffany Hanssen: She lived on the 21st floor.

Mona Goodwin: Hanan actually lived on what was the ninth floor at the time of the fire with her then-husband and two children. She was able to escape and survive the fire with her immediate family. Unfortunately, her brother and her sister-in-law, her two nephews, and her niece; Abdulaziz, Faouzia, Nur Huda, Yasin, and Mehdi all died in the fire, and they were on the 21st floor. She's a survived and bereaved member of the Grenfell community.

Tiffany Hanssen: Dominique, tell us about Natasha Elcock.

Dominique Tipper: Natasha lived on the 11th floor. She was third from last out of the tower. She was on the side of the building that the fire-- I don't know how to explain it. It was bad, but it didn't quite get her side as bad, so she was able to survive. Also by running her bath and letting that overflow, it helped with the smoke and stuff in the flat. Natasha is a survivor and also bereaved, her uncle passed away who was just four floors above her, Steve Power. Natasha managed to get out luckily, and we're here telling her story and I get to say her words, which I also feel very privileged about.

Tiffany Hanssen: Let's listen to a clip of Natasha. This is from the UK version of the play. It's not you, Dominique. This is another actor.

Dominique Tipper: This is our good sister, Pearl Mackie. I'll introduce her. [laughs]

Tiffany Hanssen: All right. Sounds good.

Pearl Mackie: My partner stumbled-- The fireman's taken my daughter off him because there was a body on the stairs and I've come down, I've done the same thing. A fireman's held me up, we keep going, and then all of a sudden, all the lights come back on on the stairs. When we get to the bottom, I distinctly remember seeing a lady. I believe she was a firewoman or she could have been a man. I remember her looking up as we come down and as we got down, there was just a row of firefighters. I remember looking at some of the faces and these are complete blank faces. I wouldn't recognize one of them if you put them in a lineup. I remember looking at the look of you don't know how lucky you are. You are one of the lucky ones. I was far from last out.

Tiffany Hanssen: Dominique, we can hear the trauma in her voice. What does it look like?

Dominique Tipper: What does the trauma look like?

Tiffany Hanssen: Yes. In your body, how are we seeing you when we're hearing those words come out of your mouth?

Dominique Tipper: Within the play, everybody documents their journey out of the building. The design of the play is very stark. There's not much props or frills. It's very dark and is obviously trying to replicate the feeling of getting out of that tower, which didn't have much light at moments. Obviously, there was a lot of smoke and a lot of terror. That moment replicates that in a way that you can in the theater.

I don't know how to explain what it feels like. I know how it feels like in my body. It's really hard telling this story every night, I can't lie. The weight of it. Obviously, I wasn't in there, but I'm reliving it through Natasha's words. It's harrowing and it's not one of the more joyful parts of the play, but it very much gives you an insight into what they were going through and the terror of trying to get out of that building with not much information about what was happening and a lot of confusing and conflicting information about what was happening. That's how I would describe that moment.

Tiffany Hanssen: Gillian, there is an intimacy in hearing these words firsthand this way. Describe how important that is in terms of your storytelling of the event.

Gillian Slovo: I just think it's very wonderful how the actors manage to carry the burden on from the people who they are portraying. I think it's quite amazing that the people were prepared to speak to us and have their words on the stage, but they wanted them heard because they think it's really important that an audience sees what really happened and not necessarily the short line that a paper does to dispose of a tragedy, of a disaster like this.

Some of the people who are portrayed in the play have not been able to come and see it because they can't put themselves through that again of what Dominique is describing, what she's doing. Some of them have come to see it a number of times and brought friends because they want people to really know what happened to them. I think it's amazing that this wonderful cast is able to do that for them and able to share that with an audience.

I think it's been really interesting watching this with an American audience because in England, we had an audience that already knew full well what Grenfell Tower was. It was such big news here and they came in carrying the pain of Grenfell Tower with them, and you didn't really have to explain to them what happened. An American audience gets it very fast that it really does speak to our common humanity. Their reactions are cultural differences, yes. Often in the same place, the audience in New York are reacting in the same way that the audience in London acted, because what the actors are helping them do is put themselves into a position of trying to think, what would we do in that situation? How would we get out of a burning tower if we were third from last out, or if we were, as one of our people was, a pregnant woman with three children trying to get out from the 18th floor of a burning building? What would we do and how would we survive? I think, in many ways, the play's a testament to the survival of those people.

Tiffany Hanssen: You've had some events in New York around this. Tell us about those.

Gillian Slovo: We've had a few workshops. We had a public event on art and activism. I think tomorrow we are actually having 400 school-- Do you call them children in America, or school pupils coming to see-

Tiffany Hanssen: Pupils, that's very British.

Dominique Tipper: I think they're children.

Tiffany Hanssen: I like it. Pupils is good.

Gillian Slovo: Followed by an event where one of the people who will be talking on it is Hanan, who Mona is portraying, and also Turufat, and other of the people in the play.

Tiffany Hanssen: What have you heard from New Yorkers so far about it?

Gillian Slovo: The reviews have been great. The people who have tweeted about it, or Xed, or whatever you're supposed to do these days, they've also written about it. I think I've been very moved by it. I think it is a play--

Dominique Tipper: People are deeply affected by it. Deeply affected. We get quite instant feedback, I think, after the play. Don't we, Mona?

Mona Goodwin: Yes.

Dominique Tipper: People are just-- they're devastated by it, but also galvanized by it. There is definitely a feeling because, unfortunately, I think these themes are universal.

Tiffany Hanssen: I was just going to ask, is there a recognition of like, "Hey, this could, this can, this does happen."?

Dominique Tipper: Yes. It's like even if you don't know about Grenfell, you understand how these systemic failings happen because they happen everywhere. You understand how the working class and the poor are not valued in a capitalist society because that happens everywhere. The US and the UK are not that much different in that regard. People do really understand it. They're also comparing it to other tragedies that are happening in the world right now. You can just see the very human connections that people are making to this piece because it's familiar. I think, unfortunately, it is a very universal story, and therefore, it is hitting people maybe not in exactly the same way, but definitely like Gillian said, everybody is reacting in the way that Londonist did.

Tiffany Hanssen: Mona, what are you hearing?

Mona Goodwin: As Dominique said, the show ends with quite a quiet moment. I won't give too much away for anyone who's hoping to see in this final week. All you can hear is the collective sniffles of tears, of empathy, of-

Gillian Slovo: The grief.

Mona Goodwin: -expression, of grief, and the sense of enragement as well that this was allowed to happen. We feel that every single night and it's deeply affecting to us. I think I speak for all the cast, it motivates us greatly as well because you realize how impactful the piece is, how powerful it is, and how important it is to keep doing it. We can feel the emotion in the room every night. People want to talk to us and share their frustration, ask questions, interrogate, how can I find out more? What can I do?

It's driving people to want to make change. I've spoken to architects, social justice filmmakers, and we've had lots of Brits in the audience, but predominantly, Americans who want to help and who now feel part of this wider Grenfell community. That's the amazing thing that happens at the end of the show. I think all the cast and creatives feel that we've now become, through osmosis, part of that Grenfell community and helping and supporting them. Hopefully, everyone who watches the play leaves feeling like that as well.

If we can grow the Grenfell community in the Grenfell story over here in the States, that's an incredible thing. I'm very grateful to everyone who's come to see the show and hope that in this final week, we get even more people coming through the door for those final shows.

Tiffany Hanssen: Gillian, before we let you go, there was an inquiry. There is a lot to reconcile here around trauma and mistakes and things that could have been, should have been done differently, but is there any optimism here?

Gillian Slovo: I think the optimism lies in ability of that community to organize and to speak out. Otherwise, I think I'm afraid, not a lot of optimism in the sense that yes, there's been an inquiry, it's done a fantastic job. It's interviewed, it's interrogated hundreds of people who are involved in the reconstruction of that building in one way or another, and yet at the moment, there have been no charges against anybody who did anything wrong. I can tell you, a lot of wrongdoing happened.

There have been no charges against the companies like Iconic, who made that cladding that went up like petrol, and who knew there was something wrong with it. In fact, they couldn't actually sell it in America because it's against your laws, but our laws were laxer and they therefore looked for market where they could actually put that. So far nobody has been charged. I think that is a problem for very many of the Grenfell survivors and bereaved. They want to see a kind of justice, and for them, a justice is not just that people will be punished for what they did, but also that the law should be changed so that other people don't go through this.

Tiffany Hanssen: All right, Gillian, remind us again. It's on through Sunday. Tell folks how they can get tickets, et cetera, et cetera.

Gillian Slovo: Go on the website and look at St. Ann's Warehouse and you can buy tickets easily there.

Tiffany Hanssen: The play is Grenfell: in the words of survivors. As Gillian said, St. Ann's Warehouse in Brooklyn until this Sunday. We've been speaking with playwright Gillian Slovo. Gillian, thank you.

Gillian Slovo: Thank you.

Tiffany Hanssen: Also actors, Mona Goodwin and Dominique Tipper, thank you so much for your time today. We appreciate it.

Mona Goodwin: Thank you for having us.

 

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