Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart, and my next guest is the man behind the famous scores for The Lion King, Pirates of the Caribbean, and more, including this sound.

[MUSIC - Hans Zimmer & The Disruptive Collective: Dune: Paul's Dream (Live)]

Alison Stewart: That is, of course, a piece of the score from the epic Dune, but this recording comes from a new concert film called Hans Zimmer and Friends: Diamond in the Desert. The movie was shot in Dubai and is filled with some of Zimmer's most famous compositions, set against conversations with an eclectic bunch of friends and collaborators from these films, like Christopher Nolan from Inception, Billie Eilish and Finneas from No Time to Die, and Timothée Chalamet from Dune. You learn about his process and why a woman named Doris is very, very important to the music he makes.

The film enters limited release on March 19th. Joining me live in studio, Academy and Grammy Award winner Hans Zimmer. It is nice to speak with you.

Hans Zimmer: Thank you very much for having me. I think you undersold the limited release. I've heard of limited release, but we are really, really limited. Two days and we're gone.

Alison Stewart: That's it?

Hans Zimmer: Well, three, maybe.

Alison Stewart: All right. In the film, you talk about Doris and how she's very, very important to the music that you make for film. Could you tell us about Doris?

Hans Zimmer: Do you want me to go and ruin my movie by telling you the story? Okay. I'll do it, though.

Alison Stewart: I know that you could it a million times and it's really important.

Hans Zimmer: My directors know it. When I was young, when I was a teenager and I was in a band traveling up and down in these very poor towns in the northern part of England, it was always raining, and inevitably there would be a woman walking to work with a gray raincoat on, an indetermined age with indetermined bleached hair and two horrible sons by her side. She was obviously a single mother, but you could see she was doing her best and she was going to work and she was going to work hard.

I kept thinking about her and I kept thinking. Come the weekend when she has a choice, she can go to the pub, spend her money there, or she can go to the cinema and see a movie. Now, if she sees a movie, I better have to have done a great job that makes it worth her while and gives her an experience, because her life is really hard. I just want her to have those two hours of dreaming.

Alison Stewart: It makes you realize what you do. People are playing-- they're earning their money, they're spending their money. It's all they have. You hope to give them something.

Hans Zimmer: No, absolutely. Look, Doris doesn't exist-

Alison Stewart: She does.

Hans Zimmer: -but she does. Even now, after all these-- I mean, God, I was maybe 18 or 19. Even now, every time I'm writing, there comes a moment where I pause and I look up into-- I don't know. I don't know where I'm looking, but I'm just saying to myself, "Do you think Doris would like this?" I check.

Alison Stewart: It tells us a lot about what you do.

Hans Zimmer: You saw the film. You didn't see that, actually, Doris has a credit on the film. Fame at last, you see?

Alison Stewart: [laughs] Listeners, do you have any questions for legendary composer Hans Zimmer? Give us a call at 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Do you want to hear about his creative process? What it's like to work with directors on these films? Our number is 212-433-9692. You may call in, join us on the air, or you can text that number as well. In the documentary, Johnny Marr and Pharrell Williams both appear, and they really wanted you to put this film together.

Hans Zimmer: No, they didn't.

Alison Stewart: Somewhat.

Hans Zimmer: I tell you what they did. They sat me down one day in my couch, and they sat a little too close so that I couldn't actually stand up.

Alison Stewart: [laughs]

Hans Zimmer: They said this, they said the following. They said, "Eventually, you have to start looking people in the eye in real-time. You can't hide behind a screen for the rest of your life. You have to go and play live." I kept going, "Oh, no, no, no, no. I got stage fright." They go, "Yes, so do we. That shouldn't be stopping you." For an hour, I went, "No." Then they both got up pretty disappointed. Just before Pharrell walked out, he said, "I'm playing the Grammys this year. Do you want to play guitar for me?" I thought, "Only an idiot would say no." That's really where that started because it was fine. Actually, it was fine because he kept his eye on me like a mother. He's such a good friend.

Alison Stewart: What convinced you that you could do it?

Hans Zimmer: Nothing convinced me that I could do it. I did it. People didn't throw things. People seemed to actually enjoy it. Then we did a bigger show in London in a place that I absolutely loved, which was the Hammersmith. It's now called Hammersmith Apollo. It was called Hammersmith Odeon when I went to see the Stones and David Bowie as a teenager there.

I tell you, the other thing is, and this is no exaggeration, I do really think I have the best band in the world at the moment. I wanted to make the movie to just capture this moment in time where everybody's playing at their best. It just seemed impossible that it could get any better. Now that they have the film, they're, of course, all running around going, "We can do this much better."

Alison Stewart: [laughs] The concert part of the film was filmed in Dubai. Why there? Who was your audience?

Hans Zimmer: Dubai is a strange place because it's so modern and at the same time so ancient. For instance, for Gladiator, we went out into a Bedouin camp and I insisted on goats. The other thing was, it just felt like such a frivolous, fabulous, wonderful thing to do to take an orchestra and a choir out into the desert. You have to realize our orchestra is actually quite special because our orchestra is from the Ukraine.

Alison Stewart: Yes.

Hans Zimmer: Our orchestra came with us a few times, and then the war started and we just managed to get them out, but they can't get back in, if you see what I mean. I better play, keep playing. [laughs] We sorted something out for them whereby they have homes now in Germany, which works really well. The German government was fantastic in helping us. Actually, the whole band is just culturally so diverse. It's three-girl drummers and stuff like that.

Alison Stewart: That's very cool, by the way. [laughs]

Hans Zimmer: They work it hard. You don't want to get them crossed.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: Let's hear a little bit from the film. This is a clip of Pirates of the Caribbean section, one of your most famous compositions. We can talk about it on the other side. This is Hans Zimmer.

[MUSIC - Hans Zimmer & The Disruptive Collective: Pirates of the Caribbean Suite: Part 3 (Live)]

Alison Stewart: The crowd goes wild.

Hans Zimmer: The crowd goes wild. You took, actually, the very end of that concert piece because I was trying to do a trick. I was trying to do Pirates, and not play the main theme until the very end, because I knew the audience knew that theme and they were going, "Is he crazy? He's not playing."

Alison Stewart: Oh, that's interesting.

Hans Zimmer: "He's still not playing it." There was a level of anticipation. Here's the thing. When I set out to do this, lots of experts told me that the audience's attention span has really diminished into nothingness, and if I play anything long, it won't work. I just didn't believe that. I didn't believe people were that unmovable. For instance, Pirates is a 14-minute piece. The Dark Knight, I think, is 22 minutes. They're all pretty chunky. Dune, and we do quite a bit of Dune, none of them are short.

Alison Stewart: [laughs] People will be there for them. They will be there.

Hans Zimmer: Yes, but you can't do Gladiator in one minute.

Alison Stewart: [laughs] Let's take a call. Michael is calling in from Forest Hills. Hi, Michael. Thank you so much for making the time to call today. You're on the air.

Michael: Hi. A comment and a question. My favorite Hans Zimmer tracks were from the movie Rain Man. It came out in the late '80s. I remember sitting in the theater while the credits were rolling at the end for 10 minutes just to listen to the music. Then I bought a new car a couple of years later and that became my reference disc. I would just play it and listen to the percussion and the treble and the bass. I just love the music. Even now, I play it. My question is, where did you get inspired for that incredible soundtrack?

Hans Zimmer: Actually, it's a funny story because I was working in London and I had done a small-- I was a complete unknown. I was even more a complete unknown than Timothée Chalamet in the film by the same name. I was a complete unknown. I had done one small movie in England called A World Apart. Barry Levinson's wife, Diana, saw it in London because they were there promoting Good Morning, Vietnam. She said, "That's the music for your next movie." She bought him the CD. She could have just said it, but she actually went to a record shop and bought him the CD.

The problem was he didn't have my phone number, but somebody had given him the address to my little studio. On a rainy night, there was a knock on the door in this really dangerous alley. Well, when you first start your studio, it's not going to be in some amazing place. There's this knock on the door and I open the door and I'm going, "Yes?"Tthis guy's standing out there and he's going, "Hello." Actually, he goes, "Hi, I'm Barry Levinson." Pause, because I'm looking at him quizzically, and he goes, "I'm a movie director." I say, "You and my mom both." He goes, "No, no, no, really."

As he says it, I look behind him and there are not one, but two ginormous limousines there. Of course, we don't really have those in London, except for famous Hollywood directors that come in. I believe him and I call him in and we start talking about Rain Man. We talk about the way I work with computers and all this crazy stuff. He said, would I like to come to Los Angeles and do the film? Would I ever? I tried to not look incredibly excited, like a little dog yapping around.

Me and my chief engineer, Big Al, from the East End of London, off we went. We set up in Barry's office because we didn't know anybody. We didn't know any studios or anything. That whole score that seems to sound beautiful with great bass and great drums was all done by myself in Barry Levinson's office, which was actually great because he was right there. It's a tricky film to get the metal off because it ends sadly, but you don't want the audience to go out sadly. Together, we shaped the music and the film a little bit at the time.

That was a really good way of making a film, which other people in town couldn't make because they didn't have synthesizers and computers and ridiculous things. The director had to wait until there was a big orchestra in front of them before he said that he hated the music. With me, it was much easier to say, "I hate it."

Alison Stewart: [laughs] My guest is Hans Zimmer. We'll have more after a quick break. This is All Of It.

[MUSIC - Luscious Jackson: Citysong]

Alison Stewart: You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. Our guest in studio is Hans Zimmer. We're talking about his new concert film, Hans Zimmer and Friends: Diamond in the Desert. In between these giant orchestral pieces are conversations you have with various people.

Hans Zimmer: Are they giant orchestral pieces? Well, I suppose I go a little bit over the top here.

Alison Stewart: [laughs] You have Timothée Chalamet. You have Christopher Nolan. You have Finneas Billie Eilish. First of all, why were these people important to you to have in the film?

Hans Zimmer: Because we had a great working relationship like Timothée. Very few people know this, but I've done two movies with him, actually now three. He was in Interstellar. He was the young boy in Interstellar. We go back, as it were. People like Jerry Bruckheimer have done-- I don't count that many movies. Who else we got there? Well, obviously, Pharrell and Johnny Marr. They are very, very naughty boys. I mean, honestly. They just kicked me out of that studio. They ruined a perfectly good film composer.

Alison Stewart: [laughs]

Hans Zimmer: Johnny goes in the movie, "Wow, You've become a real road dog." I think he's right. Tragic, but there it is.

Alison Stewart: What did you want people to get from those conversations?

Hans Zimmer: Actually, it wasn't so much me. Sorry. Paul Dugdale, who directed the movie, suggested the conversations, and I thought it was just the worst idea, and I fought him on it. Then it seemed like a really good opportunity to get together with some of my friends.

Alison Stewart: Why did you fight him on it?

Hans Zimmer: Well, because I didn't know how that would work. I just didn't know. Here was the funny thing. I've made a lot more movies than Paul, but Paul knew a lot better how to make this movie, so I would absolutely acquiesce to him. Once the conversation started going and once that stuff started coming in, it really showed something about me, I think, as much as about them, and I liked that.

I like that the virtuoso musicians somehow expose themselves to the world through their music, through their playing because it comes from their heart, it comes from their soul, and it comes from their technique. With me, less so. I'm a composer, which means I write impossible parts that other people have to suffer through. I don't play that well. I don't know. I might express myself somewhat well. Those chats, I think, are very illuminating, especially because nobody held back.

Alison Stewart: We've got a piece for Finneas. Finneas asked you in the film how you decided what instruments you were going to play live. Let's listen.

Finneas: How do you decide what you want to play on each song live? Because you played most of everything often when you recorded it, right? You cherry-pick, you go, "This was the most fun part to play. I'm going to play guitar." How did you choose what instrument you were going to play?

Hans Zimmer: Pretty much that.

Alison Stewart: [laughs]

Hans Zimmer: Pretty much that.

Alison Stewart: [laughs] Pretty much that.

Hans Zimmer: Yes, exactly. Usually, the guitar, because it's more fun than anything else.

Alison Stewart: Which instruments do you find really just fun? Do you have a good time playing?

Hans Zimmer: Pirates, for instance, has the banjo in it. You know the definition of a gentleman. A gentleman is somebody who can play the banjo but refrains from doing so. Like Sherlock Holmes's banjo, I just love playing the instruments that are loathed, hated, and people have disdain for them.

Alison Stewart: [chuckles] It's very funny. Let's talk to Michael, who is calling in from Bridgewater, New York. Hi, Michael. Thank you so much for calling WNYC. You're on the air.

Michael: Yes, thank you. The question I have for Hans is, have you ever felt stifled by a director or a producer or anyone on the production team based on creative differences, where you believe the music should go in this direction and they have a difference? How do you handle that?

Hans Zimmer: A little bit has appeared in the past very, very rarely, because most directors know that if they start talking music to me or if they try to explain the music they want in their movie as opposed to explaining the movie to me, it's probably not going to work out all that well because my job is to do the thing that they can't even imagine. Because if they could imagine it, they could just get a secretary to do it. They could just get somebody in and do it. Disagree? Yes, disagreements. Absolutely disagreements. Sometimes they go on for a week or two.

Funny enough, all those movies, they still seem to have music. I think I was convinced-- You see, here's the thing. Music is indefensible. You play somebody a piece of music and it either touches them or it doesn't. That's it. We were working on one movie and we had to go to a preview, which is basically where we show it to a bunch of people who tell us how rotten our movie is and what we need to change and fix. On the way there, it was a short plane ride, luckily, the producer was sitting opposite me and telling me how I was ruining the movie. For 45 minutes, he found new ways of telling me how I was ruining the movie with the music.

We get there, and I'm feeling a little apprehension. The movie is actually playing really well. Then we get to the bit that he really singled out as the death of the movie. There's a lady sitting next to me. I have no idea who she is. She turns to me and she goes, "That's genius." All I could say is, "Tell him," which, of course, means nothing. Afterwards, they take numbers and they ask the audience, "What did you think of the movie?" They really drilled down on the music because they really wanted to prove that the music was bad and hurting the movie.

Lo and behold, the audience loved it. The more they drilled down on it, the more the audience loved it. On the way back, we sat opposite each other again, and I said, "Look, I'm happy to change it. I'm happy to change everything." He goes, "Don't touch it. Don't do a thing." This is a cynical story until you actually get how it works. If you have three people, two producers and a director sitting in a room, there's a very different atmosphere than when you have 600 people who have nothing to gain or nothing at stake. They're just there to enjoy themselves. I don't believe anything until I've previewed it and found out how the room felt. I don't even need to hear the question answers. You know if they want to go and hang you.

Alison Stewart: When you were in the room and you heard someone say, "I'm not so sure about that." You still like the piece, but "I'm not so sure about that." Would you go back and revisit it?

Hans Zimmer: Yes, I constantly revisit things. I'm not so sure about it means it didn't touch them fully emotionally. I am absolutely sure about it, and I hate it. That makes me proud.

Alison Stewart: [laughs] I know exactly what you mean. As you were putting together the concert list for this film, how did you know what you wanted to start with? How did you know what you wanted to end with?

Hans Zimmer: I knew what I wanted to end with. Oh, God, am I going to tell you this? I ended with the last piece my publicist, Ronni Chasen, heard. A great New Yorker and a wonderful lady. She was murdered in Los Angeles.

Alison Stewart: I'm so sorry.

Hans Zimmer: It was stupid as well. Somebody was trying to rob her. The last piece she heard was that piece. I always play that for her. That's my goodbye to Ronni. The first piece is a little bit from Dune. You have some amazing singers here in Brooklyn. Loire Cotler sings. She has incredible courage because she sings in front of the audience for four minutes by herself before a machinery of drums and guitars unleashes on you. The rest of the song, there's a democratic thing going on where people go, "Yes, I want to play this. No, I want to play this." I didn't want to play Lion King. Lion King's a children's movie. What I didn't realize is, so many young people in my band, they were all going, "Get over yourself, Zimmer."

Alison Stewart: "We want Lion King."

Hans Zimmer: "That's the music of my youth." [laughs]

Alison Stewart: I love that.

Hans Zimmer: It's great because I want it to be things that they want to play.

Alison Stewart: The film is called Hans Zimmer and Friends: Diamond in the Desert. It will have a limited screening starting on March 19th. Hans, it was such a pleasure to have you.

Hans Zimmer: Thank you for having me.

Alison Stewart: I think we're going to go out on something from Interstellar.

[MUSIC - Hans Zimmer & The Disruptive Collective: Interstellar Suite: Part 1 (Live)]

Alison Stewart: That's All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening, and I appreciate you. I will meet you back here next time.