As the New York primary nears, WNYC's Andrea Bernstein sat down with Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton. A transcript of the conversation is below. To hear the full audio version, click the player above.

 

Work and Family

AB: On the issue of balancing work and family, one of the things that I've been thinking about that struck me, is that — and listening to some of the speeches and talks that you gave in 1999 and 2000 — is the way that you have been talking about issues of women and reproductive rights and pay for so long, so very long, and yet it's striking, because I sort of feel like people don't necessarily recognize the consistency of that thread. And I'm wondering what you think that is, is that because people are being sexist, are they devaluing these issues as important issues to be consistent on?

HC: Well I haven't thought about it exactly that way, but I think there is always a devaluing of issues that seem to be viewed in the eyes of many primarily as women's issues, which of course is maddening, because they are not just women's issues, they're family issues, they're economic issues, they're quality of life issues, you can go quite down a long list talking about that. Unless the issues are ones that provoke ideological or other kinds of opposition, like women's reproductive rights, and then they stay center-stage, and there's always a necessity to keep fighting for them, it's never settled, it's never over.

And I'm hoping that in this campaign, because as you rightly point out, I've said the same thing for decades — I worked on the Family and Medical Leave Act when I was an advocate, even before my husband ran for president, and finally we got that signed in his first, you know, signing as a president in '93, and now we're going back and trying to get paid family leave.

So it's a consistent, constant effort to try to secure the changes that are necessary, in fact maybe even more necessary now than when I first started working on them, to provide more support for families, and particularly for women who are both in the paid workforce but also balancing all of those responsibilities.

 

The Bill Clinton White House

AB: Some of your biggest supporters have said to me, everything that happened progressive in Bill Clinton's White House happened because of Hillary Clinton. Is that a fair assessment? Do you agree with that?

HC: Well, I appreciate all of my friends and supporters, we were pushing on an open door, but sometimes we had to push very hard, and I had —

AB: And by we, do you mean you?

HC: I mean me and my hardy team. I had a great staff when I was First Lady. It was first led by Maggie Williams who now is the dean of the Kennedy School. And then it was led by Melanne Verveer, who was the first-ever global ambassador for women's issues and now runs a news center at Georgetown. So, highly motivated and experienced women who worked the inside of the White House and made it known how strongly I felt about a number of issues.

But I think there were certainly allies, including my husband. But sometimes the politics seemed to be more difficult than I thought they should be. I'll give you a quick example, because Chuck Schumer has been talking about this while we’ve campaigned together.

You know, we were fighting for the Brady Bill, something that I felt very passionate about. And Chuck remembers a meeting, that I do too, which was a very large meeting of a lot of the president's inside and outside political advisers, and vote counters.

And Chuck was there, I was there. And the argument was being made, look, we're not going to get this, and we should cut our losses, and we should quit fighting for it, and it's going to cause a lot of political blowback because taking on the NRA is the third rail in politics and the most powerful of all the lobbies in Washington.

And Chuck tells people that I basically spoke up and said no, we can't back off, we can't give up, this is a matter of life and death literally, and we've got to pass the Brady Bill. So we did push it through. It did get passed, and it did cost a lot of the people who voted for it their seats in Congress.

So the politics was not wrong in the analysis that was being presented, but I thought it was such an important and progressive issue that we had to keep fighting for it, and we should have done the politics better to help those people who voted for it.

AB: So I remember the politics of the 1990s, and obviously I'm aware of the discussion in this campaign. But take, for example, the welfare bill. Now you've said the time limits was something that didn't work and has been punitive. That was something that people raised at that time, and I'm wondering is it something that you were worried about at that time in talking about that bill, but you didn't feel the politics of the moment would allow for such a discussion?

HC: So there were a lot of very strong supporters of changing the welfare system from what it had become, which was not at all a platform for most people going anywhere. And because of the way the states controlled a lot of the standards that were applied, there were such broad disparities between some states that were, you know, truly punitive and miserly, and states that tried at least to be more supportive. So there were some very important changes that were part of the welfare reform policy.

I remember well, when my husband had been a governor, his working with Daniel Patrick Moynihan and others to see what we could do to make it a better safety net than it had been.

And Bill, you know, shut the government down twice, because the Republicans were trying to slash Medicaid, slash food stamps. And they were going to push through a welfare reform bill after '94. And it was just a question whether it could be one that would have some promise attached to it. So yes, there were voices saying, "It doesn't matter what they do or how it's constructed, it's going to be bad."

I did not believe that. I believed that it could be a net positive, if it were implemented right. And I remember very well the incredible public-private effort that went into training welfare recipients, giving them that first rung on the ladder of a job. I met a lot of those people, I mean, as I traveled around the country I met people who thanked me for what my husband had done, because they felt, as one woman said, now when my little boy asks me what I do, I can tell him I work, and tell them where.

So there was a lot that I thought was positive.

I would put most of the responsibility on the Bush Administration and on governors and on the failure to be able to get some of what was tried to have more modulation when there were downturns in the economy. But the Bush Administration and Republican governors were really not interested in continuing what had been the positive framework for welfare reform and now we have to take a hard look at it again, especially after the Great Recession and the five-year limit, but also the really unfair way that a lot of states have defined education benefits and other administrative changes that they have imposed on top of that framework.

 

Campaigning

AB: Now do you feel — I mean, obviously this is a different political moment from the '90s, it's a different political moment even from 2008. You seem kind of happier this campaign than you did in 2008. I don't know if you feel happier—

HC: I feel great actually, thank you.

AB: I'm wondering, do you feel more comfortable with the political discussions that are taking place? Are you just more seasoned?

HC: Well, I think it's probably both. I think having gone through it once, and finding my sea legs, so to speak, is really putting me in a much stronger position to, you know, feel quite comfortable and excited, actually, about this campaign. I'm confident, I'm optimistic, I don't take anything for granted, I work hard every day.

But there is a sense of real mission in our campaign. I believe strongly that a Democrat has to succeed Barack Obama, I feel I am the best Democrat to do that, to build on the progress that we've made over the last eight years, but to go further to deal with some of the unfinished business, if you will, that the country still faces.

And I've laid out very specific plans, people make fun of me all the time, in the press, in the public, whatever, and say, "Oh my gosh, there she goes with another plan," but it is not enough to diagnose the problem. You've got to come up with solutions that actually would work and would make a positive difference in people's lives.

That's what I learned over many years as an activist in non-profit work, Children's Defense Fund and the like, it’s certainly what I did when I was First Lady against a lot of odds, and what I did as senator.

 

$15 Minimum Wage and Income Inequality

AB: But on the issue of the politics...I remember, I think was it two years ago that President Obama talked about a $10.10 minimum wage in his State of the Union, and The Daily News had a cover that said 1010 WINS. And last night, you were talking about a $15 an hour minimum wage. Are you happy with where the politics of the Democratic Party are moving? Is it moving more towards where you feel it should be?

HC: It is. I mean I'm a progressive who likes to get things done, and we’re having this vigorous back and forth, Senator Sanders and myself, over raising the minimum wage when the Republicans don't even want to acknowledge that $7.25 is wholly inadequate. That's a good debate to have. And if we do our politics right, like working with the Fight for $15 movement here in New York and the unions that support it, who have endorsed me, we can build a political coalition that will raise the minimum wage in Washington. In the meantime, I'm going to support every other jurisdiction raising it as high as their circumstances permit.

AB: Are you happy that Senator Sanders is in the race because he has been pushing these issues, are you happy that he's pushed the party and the country to talk about these issues of income inequality?

HC: Well I don't think he's the only person who's talked about income inequality.

AB: But his single-minded focus, maybe has helped.

HC: That's true. I think his absolute single-minded focus has allowed that issue to break through. But what I think is important is to continue to stress that we're not a single-issue country, and there are other forms of inequality. And therefore, I share the passion to do something about income inequality

AB: You're happy to be talking about it now?

HC: Absolutely, and I've talked about it for a very long time. You can go back and read speeches that I've given going back many years

AB: Or listen —

HC: Or listen to, exactly. So yes, it's a big part of what I believe has to be addressed. But again, I would say, once you've recognized the problem, what are your solutions for it? Because I want people to know what I will try to do to tackle income inequality, as well as educational inequality, and health inequality, and the systemic racism in the criminal justice system, and, you know, sexism and homophobia and all the other inequalities, right?

 

Gay Marriage

AB: Alright, let's talk about gay marriage, I'm getting the hand signal. I don't know if you know this, but I was actually the first reporter ever to ask you about gay marriage, and that was in White Plains, in 2000.

It was Adam Nagourney and I, and so it's obviously an issue that is personal to me, that I have been discussing. I've been asking people running for office for a long time and I am very aware of where this debate has moved.

And I have to say, maybe it's my, you know, sort of heart became kind of calloused by covering this issue and you know, living under an unequal system all these years, but I'm kind of, you know, as with the minimum wage, I’m shocked that the debate has come. But I'm very surprised, because when I speak to voters, particularly younger voters, what they say to me is Hillary Clinton has changed her position on too many issues, and exhibit A is always gay marriage. And I am wondering, does that surprise you?

HC: It really does surprise me, and, you know, I can do the forensics on —

AB: Have you heard that before?

HC: I have heard it before, I'm always surprised by it, and I can, as I say, do the forensics. Bernie Sanders had the exact same position, and how he has somehow conveyed that he didn't change and I did is a credit to him, his campaign, because that's just not, that's just not the facts.

AB: HC: Do you — was there a moment for you, where you changed your mind?

HC: I think the president put it as well as anybody could, people evolved and I know that may be a term that —

AB: He said it was his daughters talking to him.

HC: My daughter was one of the leaders in the marriage equality effort here in New York. She signed on, she was active, she made speeches, she was used in advertisements, so of course, her absolute commitment to that some years back now is something that made a big impression on me.

And I give her credit. I think that her view, like the Obama daughters, like the young people you're talking to, is what is the deal here? Let's move on, let's break down this barrier. Let's make it clear that, you know, marriage equality, ending discrimination against the LGBT community is exactly what we should be doing in our country at this time and I'm thrilled by it because, you know, like you — I did not even have that as a possible framework to think about until, you know, I was adult, quite far along in my adult years.

AB: Do you think it's how quickly this issue has moved that makes it hard for younger people to understand, do you think it seems so bizarre because it's sort of — people who are 18 or 25 think: How can anybody oppose that?

HC: You know that's a really good observation. I think you're right. It is probably the fastest civil rights movement from start to finish that ended up in a constitutional finding that made marriage equality the law of the land, compared to everything else that I could imagine.

And although there will continue to be, as we're seeing today in North Carolina, and Mississippi, there will be rear guard actions fought over equality in every aspect of society, which is, you know, something that I think will have to be pushed back, and we'll have to push the equality act in the Congress, but the marriage equality issue itself seems to be settled. They may feel differently, and sometimes you hear Ted Cruz, and people like, that rant and rail about marriage equality and the Supreme Court's finding. But you don't see the organized effort that we have seen now for how many years after Roe V. Wade, to undermine and eliminate, you know, a woman's constitutional right.

 

Healthcare

AB: Before they pull you out, can I ask you a question about healthcare?

HC: Sure.

AB: So, one of the things that I have found out on the campaign trail that has been fascinating to me, speaking of quickly moving debates, is quite a few people, including in the South, have said that their problem with Obamacare is that there's not enough of it, which is, I think, a very different debate than what people thought would happen beforehand.

But that is a really real thing, that people feel like there was this promise, and that they can't get enough healthcare, they can't afford the deductibles, they can't afford the co-pays. Now you've said that you want to build on it, but do you understand the sort of distress? You know, when Bernie Sanders says it's not working, you know, sort of the underlying tension between people who cannot get the healthcare that they want even though there is this act that has passed.

HC: Well I see it differently. We've had the Affordable Care Act passed into law for, you know, a little less than five years. It's been really implemented for about three years, after some difficult execution challenges.

And we are now seeing people, who never had health insurance at all, have access to it. And what I've said repeatedly from the very beginning, and it's part of, you know, what I've laid out there, I will defend the affordable Care Act, because the achievement of it is remarkable, historical, and one of President Obama's singular accomplishments. And it is working for many millions of people.

Because it's not just those who go onto the exchange that are benefiting, it's also women no longer pay more than men for our insurance, young people can stay on their parents' policies, if their parents have one, until 26, there is no elimination for pre-existing conditions, no life-time limits. So the changes affect everybody. And the people who go on the exchanges to sign up for it deserve to have continuing evaluations done about how we do get the costs down.

So I've said co-pays are too high, deductibles are too high, there's not enough competition in a lot of areas. We need to do something about prescription drug costs. But I'm going to build on what we've got, and I really feel like I'm in exactly the right position, both substantively and politically, the Republicans keep wanting to repeal it, they'll never tell you what they would do with it

AB: Can that happen? I mean, given where it is now, is it sort of ingrained enough in the American psyche?

HC: If they have a Republican president and a Republican Congress, it'll be gone in a week. Absolutely. It'll be the first thing they push through. And they will repeal it. And then they'll say, we'll figure out what to do afterwards.

And what Senator Sanders has put forward is filled with unanswered questions, and un-thought-through assumptions.

So that progressive economists who I respect, healthcare economists who've tried to understand what he's proposing, have basically said it would be a train wreck for the poor, people who are on Medicaid now who are working would end up paying much more in payroll taxes. Most working people would pay close to close $5,000 in additional taxes. And every time these questions are raised by reputable independent economists, the Sanders campaign says that's not true, look at France, look at this, look at that. And, that's not an answer.

So I am going to continue to defend the Affordable Care Act, but I have to agree with people who say, wait a minute, there are problems with it. Yes, there are, and that's why we need to build on it as a firm foundation, but take it further, fix the problems, and lower the cost. And I think that is doable over the next years.

 

Unifying the Country

AB: OK, and, just to wrap up, you told Buzzfeed that you were doing this because you wanted to bring about love and kindness. What makes you optimistic, under these conditions, that you can do that?

HC: Well, we were just talking about marriage equality. And rather than talking about it in a political frame, let's talk about it in a human, personal frame. The sheer joy and shared love of the people I know who have gotten married, whether they thought they ever would or not, but who now have, is, I think, the strongest endorsement of why this was the right policy.

And I am worried about the mean-spiritedness, and really hateful rhetoric that we're seeing from the Republicans. They clearly believe this is playing to a base that supports them.

I think there is a understandable amount of anger and fear among people who feel like they are being left out and left behind. Their government's not working for them, the economy's not working for them, politics doesn't work for them, and so along comes somebody who, you know, really promises to you know, fix whatever ails them, and does it by blaming everybody else.

In order to produce results for people, we've got to re-knit the human connections among people, and I think that means for someone like me running, I can't just talk to people who agree with me. I've got to reach out to people who don't, who never believe they will, and maybe won't. But I want them to know I'll be their president, too. That I'm going to try to unify the country. I think it's probably one of the three biggest tests facing us. You know, how are we going to produce results for people, how are we going to keep us safe and protect America and lead the world, and how are we going to unify us.

And I think we need to get back to treating each other certainly with respect and hopefully with some kindness, too.

AB: Still believe in a place called Hope?

HC: I do. Absolutely, I've been there. 

 

NOTE: WNYC has requested an interview with Sen. Bernie Sanders, but has yet to receive a response.