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Welcome to another edition of black man in America presented by your city station in cooperation with the city's commission on human rights these programs are broadcast Tuesday afternoons at five on W N Y C F.M. ninety three point nine mega cycles and Tuesday evenings at nine over W N Y C eight hundred thirty killer cycles here now to tell you more about this important series is our moderator a chairman of the Commission on Human Rights Commission or both a good evening this is what you made both and I'm here to bring you another in the series the black man in America devoted as the title states to examining the history and life of Afro Americans and the contributions they have made and are making to the material cultural and spiritual wealth of this country this includes all of living not simply the civil rights issues we see in the headlines that public education has failed for so many children in the United States is becoming a well known fact tonight's guest Mr Hillel by black author of the American school book published by William Morrow and Company has put together a book which examines American textbooks for elementary and high school students and the people who decide what goes into them Mr Black was born and raised in New York City and received his M.A. degree from the University of Chicago his career began as a journalist for The New York Times and he also worked for the Associated Press and for C.B.S. He was an editor of The Saturday Evening Post for several years before becoming a senior editor for William Morrow he is the author of They shall not pass which is a study of school testing also the watchdogs of Wall Street and buy now pay later he's also the co-author of the thief in the white collar and the royal vultures. Mr Black interviewed textbook publishers salesmen and educators in New York Boston Chicago Detroit Austin and Alice to gather material for the American school book Mr Black your book The American School Book comes at a critical time in our history because today it seems that in New York City probably reflective of the rest of the country there's a great deal of discussion about education and education certainly comes from books and from teachers and one element is discussed in your book called The American School book what do you find about the books that are used by our schools Well the textbook industry or textbook publishing has been with us ever since the American Revolution and even indeed before that school books as such still are as they have been in the past the basic instrument of the basic to which is used to teach children and children are taught almost everything from textbooks in the schools from mathematics to science to literature to human values over the years school books have generally been like the Devonian lungfish a backward Beast There have however been some changes had a compass for Perhaps we can discuss later but these changes interestingly in improvements have come in what you would call a non-controversial areas science mathematics foreign languages. The areas where we still have some very serious problems are in those subjects the deal with mankind English literature or history and social studies and social studies certainly takes a lot of the time today because we're all talking about social change in this country of ours and did we are are one of the interesting aspects of textbook publishing interesting to me was for example the way school books have treated. The black people in this country over the years. Until very recently the black man in the school book was the forgotten American. A child would pick up taken Jane and he would find no black child in there no black child ever romped would spot. Recently the school book industry has decided to recognize one tenth of the American population while famines and call that the invisible man indeed and he has become visible and he has been inserted the black man has been inserted only recently this began in the early one nine hundred sixty S. into the school but isn't it also true that whenever the black man was seen in textbooks he was seen in a very low degrading manner indeed this is true. One of the rather fast that he things to me is the way the school books over the generations have reflected the Baris particularly the values of what you might call the establishment or yes. The people who are defect running the country. There was a great deal of scurrilous anti Catholicism. In the early school books. The Indian was somewhat a special case yes the sets that are the what had the school book authors and publishers had to somehow D. Fed just outside of the other had they had to say something of that that was special about the dados of this particular special lad as they viewed it they didn't give the truth about our President Andrew Jackson even in the know they did not. Most important to be is that the attitude that was taken towards the big row in the early school books and that of course slavery was defended at the negro was so the school books would say was intellectually inferior physically inferior racially inferior and this is something that was taught to children generation after generation at a deed what By ask why it is that there is so much ad tied to grow feely in this country or has been over the years it is something that we've actually taught in the schools as school has been the molder of the opinion of a young child who now has grown to manhood that is correct and it's interesting that yesterday I spoke to an eminent broadcaster and told him of this kind of slower of the black man in textbooks in schools and he said he couldn't believe that that's true he could believe that they were left out but he couldn't believe that they had been slurred in any way well indeed they have been one could actually quote chapter and verse as to when they were and how they work it's interesting you've got a title of a chapter here called integration is not castor oil What does that mean well this was a quote from Whitney Young who suggested that indeed one should not only integrate school books as well as the schools themselves. But that this should be really a painless thing to do that the people who issue the school books should not should should do it not because just because they are being forced to do it. By the protests of civil rights groups because it is a positive worthwhile thing to do. And their house been some change that is as we see now we have what's called an integrated school books the integrated school books our school books in which Negroes and white children play together. New go parents appear and so on I might add that the school book publishers are still selling two kinds of books they are selling the same edition which only white children appear no negroes of peers and the reason they're doing that in part as they are still trying to attract the southern market or the market of some bigoted northern communities I might add also in some instances they only published white school books in the past they had contracts for these books and there is no way for them to break these contracts. I remember though that so the rights organizations had been on the doorsteps of the Board of Education in the city of New York for some fifteen to twenty years trying to get them to stop buying textbooks certain textbooks from certain publishers and a Board of Education always that they could not stop this because the textbook publishers had to prepare a set of books for the South they were going to prepare a second set of book books for the north and now finally the textbook publishers seem to have been given the word that when it's just not going to buy a books if you continue to do this precisely those one of the somewhat interesting things to be is that the Supreme Court decision in one nine hundred fifty four which call for integrated schools probably has not had too much effect in the sense that the schools in the south and to some extent the schools in the north of simply ignored or found a way of passing by this decision and what that decision did do is a legitimate legitimate made legitimate the civil rights movement which cost one doesn't have to make this legitimate but at least in terms of the social structure of this country it did that yes as a result civil rights groups began to pressure boards of education. To integrate school books if they couldn't integrate the classrooms at least they could integrate the school books and in Detroit for example I believe it was in one nine hundred sixty two. The N.W.A. C.P. insisted that they take one particular American history see it text book out because it gave the anti belum view of the South and the anti Bella view of the Negro and to change this to put in what was really valid history and to integrate the school book that school book was taken out it was change and is now the school book being used in Detroit and what Detroit could point out is that we buy say two hundred thousand dollars worth of this particular school book which is as much as or more than Mississippi buys Yes it's worthwhile in terms of your of your market to provide us with such a school book which is very simple and it happened common business sense sure it is our nation is bad business that is precisely the case and they were made to realize that in two hundred thousand dollars worth who meant a lot to them correct but it is interesting too that when the book land of the free in eighth grade history book edited by John Hope Franklin and two other historians University cargo when that came out there was great uproar about the fact that it was being used by some schools in California and other places why was there an uproar about this. Well as Ari I recall our. The reason for that was that the I believe at least in California they felt that this provided a too liberal version of. Of the negroes role in American history yes. And I believe that the thing has been resolved and that the book is being used in California is being used in New York City also I should hope so it's a very good book it's on the on the approved list there's also other things that are left out of textbooks in schools I know certainly that the history of the Jew in this country and before this country is left out we don't hear anything we don't read anything about it in our textbooks the same thing about Puerto Ricans and Mexican Americans and as you said the American Indian as well Yes Well the interesting thing about the way of the school books have treated them and minorities particularly the minorities that have emigrated to this country during the end of the nineteenth century in the twentieth century as they simply have ignored them. And that's the they have done so I think in part because they are concerned that they there may be areas that would be too controversial for some school systems and the school systems would reject the books and therefore since they want bigger sales possible they don't put them in as one textbook publisher pointed out to me he said it would be impossible to say in a school book that Jewish immigrants who came from Germany before Hitler and who lived on the East Side for example in New York City brought with them some of the old German socialism which was a venture Lee taken up by Al Smith and passed through the New York legislature. This is maybe something of an interesting thought but there's so much in there that would be in on a thermal to so many school districts they simply wouldn't put it in. How many textbooks are there in the school system and how many children are involved. Well there are approximately two hundred fifty million this is solved certainly a rough figure two hundred fifty million school books in use each child during his elementary and high school career probably studies on the average about sixty four school books what she has two large part memorize which is the very the essential fruit of his education. Indeed the importance of school books in the classroom was such that our the school book publisher. Puts out a second school book for almost each textbook they publish the school book is called the teacher's guy in this for the teachers and the elementary grades these schoolies teachers guardians are so detailed that they tell the teacher precisely what to say to the class when she comes in in the morning. And precisely how to teach each subject this particularly true in reading play mold not only the opinion of the child but the opinion of the teacher as well well they also of course make very rigid the teaching method is that what you mean when you say in your chapter six molding and nation Well that and part of that also was that other thing we were talking about Mr Howe. Racial bias and economic bias is put in the school book how the schools select their textbooks who selects the authors how how is that is publishing lucrative enough so that the publishers decide this or who designs. Well the school book is selected in different ways in different parts of the country in approach about half the states there is a state screening committee and in order to have the state pay for the school books and it's not the city of the local community doesn't the States for example in Texas it's a state screening committee this committee must pass on the textbooks and they have textbook hearings. And it puts an ordinance power of course in the hands of such a committee I would just add parenthetically at this point in New York State and in other states it's the local school district or community that the signs are what textbooks will be used in the school system this is after the publishing Now this is after the books have been published is there anything that the state or the schools of the local school districts have to say before the publishing is done as to what content goes in or what kind of books they need well they yes they do in the sense that. Now again to get back to civil rights because it's the prime example. When the communities began to protest as in the illustration he gave before in Detroit. The textbook publishers began to realize it was only Detroit it was New York too and was Philadelphia and along a lot of other Chicago a lot of other cities. That they wanted better school books that would give a more valid view of American history than the school book publishes Briganti published such books but very often it's after the fact one of the interesting things instances of what can happen in this kind of situation was in Texas they actually had a monkey trial was like the old Scopes Monkey Trial and evolution this was after three by a high school biology school books had already been published and they said that one of them had too much evolution in it. As a result after the book had been printed published and bound and he'd sold in several communities the textbook publisher was forced to felt he was forced to change the content of some of that school book which he did do and because school book publishers find it less expensive to publish one poke for the to be used by the entire nation they then begin proceeded to water down some explanations of evolution in the school books that were sold from Maine to California is that why there is less controversy shown in school books than you would expect yes this is a very big reason and there are a couple of for example textbook markets such as Texas California and other states where they have this in ordinance power over the rest of the nation you mean in a single state can determine the content of books that are used throughout the nation that is true not just because the publishers bow to the wishes and don't want to lose the market or whatever they don't want to get involved a lot on or if they don't want to lose the market there's a tremendous market in Texas since the Texas screening the Texas School the school book committee in a sense is buying for the entire state. Which is a tremendous amount of power in the hands of a few people were talking with Mr Hillel black author of the American school book a book which discusses what is happening with reference to American textbooks in American schools today Mr Black Could you elaborate on some of the results of the one hundred sixty five survey conducted by Dr J. McCall A related to how teachers in the first two sixth grades handle kind of racial issues in the classroom are the teachers to blame or is this because of the school book publishers Well I thought that was a very interesting survey in that it pointed up the fact that teachers in effect. Are or consider themselves civil servants now one of the problems that happens I think with the civil servant is that he is very much concerned about his security and about his job. Teachers very often end up in teaching and I think this is particularly true of men they end up in teaching because they are somewhat afraid of getting out into the competitive world and taking the chances that one has to and the world outside the school system is not something which is just your opinion and this is the on this is just my opinion and I'm sort of you or offering it as a preface to the study what the study pointed up was that teachers themselves are terribly afraid to introduce controversial material into the school room and they were afraid because they thought that the Board of Education or the superintendent of schools would be against it they're also afraid because they thought that the community itself would be operating as they did the study also goes to point out in the many instances the community would not have been against introducing some controversy on material into the schools but the teachers had the illusion or at least had the thought of the community was against this and therefore they did everything possible to take to see that this these kinds of discussions simply were not held in the classroom. The discussions the kinds of topics that came up incidentally ranged from the Vietnam War to civil disobedience. To simply discussion of Harry S. Truman Yes which was considered too controversial in some community are your your topic the headline of the title rather of the Chapter seven is Truman Plus sex equals fear these are the two taboo subjects Well I wouldn't say the Truman was was he the great taboo subject but certainly sexes and. This is the kind of thing that happens generally throughout our school systems I would say that happens in a number of instances in the survey pointed up it happens many to many Are you hopeful of innovation in change is there any hope for the future. Yes I certainly think there is. There have been some very considerable and important changes. In the less controversial subjects as mentioned earlier as science foreign languages and mathematics there is now an attempt to do the same with the more sensitive areas of of learning and that some very fine work is being done in both English literature and in the social sciences to give a very quick simple illustration of the kind of thing that you can done can do one group was. Was testing on some children are the simple thing they would give them the date for the Battle of Lexington. Now this appears the date for the battle that's it it appears in every school book what it's really watch more interesting is what happened at the Battle of laxative so what the children give it was they were given three versions of the battle of last year like seated from original sources that were written either by British soldiers or British participants. Three other versions by the American rebels all these versions were different each what each person who was there or had heard about it at that time who lived that type had a different view of the Battle of Lexington the child was that asked to read the six versions to write his what he thought was the true version of what happened the Battle of Lexington what this does of course is that it makes the child go through the thought process the experience of the Istari go through what he must go to original sources it also makes him realise that history can be a subjective yes that necessarily an objective fact some adults have to realize that I think as a lawyer I know that and every witness that comes into court has a different story and it depends upon whose side he's on and the same is true of professional witnesses to the need indeed of the the great thing about both law and history is to find the truth well I'm certainly glad that you've got some hope for the future in this field of changing the textbooks so that they will properly reflect America and therefore mold the opinion of our children properly. Thank you hello black for being with us on Black in America every person who was interested in the quality of education in America should read this very direct well documented book called The American School book and published by William Morrow and Company please be with us again next week when we will have another distinguished guest with us as a billboard saying good night. We welcome your comments on these programmes send your cards and letters to black man in America W N Y C in New York one hundred zero seven and join us again next Tuesday afternoon at five on W N Y C F.M. or next Tuesday evening at nine on W. N.Y.C. a black man in America is a featured present Taishan of your city station broadcast in cooperation with the New York City Commission on Human Rights.