Tiffany Hansen: This is All Of It. I'm Tiffany Hansen in for Allison Stewart, thanks so much for joining us today. Listeners, we'd like to give you a heads-up and a content warning ahead of this next segment. This interview will touch on topics surrounding rape and sexual assault. This might be a good time to put some headphones on if those younger listeners who are listening to our food segment are still with you, or find some time to listen online at wnyc.org later.

Also, you can tune in next hour. We have more on books and podcasts, and we'll be looking for your recommendations so tune in next hour. If at any time you need support, please call the National Sexual Assault Hotline, 800-656-4673. People are there and available to you 24 hours a day. Every 68 seconds, someone in the United States is sexually assaulted.

That's according to the Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network, the organization that operates the National Sexual Assault Hotline. In the last year, there have been lawsuits accusing former President Donald Trump, Hip Hop Mogul Sean Diddy Combs, and the comedian and actor Russell Brand of sexual misconduct.

Last month, WNYC and Gothamist reported that more than 700 women recently filed lawsuits against New York City under the Adult Survivors Act alleging they were sexually abused while detained at Rikers. This month is also Sexual Assault Awareness and Prevention Month. We're going to talk about how we can support survivors of sexual assault. We'll hear about programs in place to help those in crisis. Joining us is licensed therapist Luis Ramirez. He is the founder of Rising Potential Counseling. Luis, welcome.

Luis Ramírez: Hi, how's it going? Thank you.

Tiffany Hansen: Great, thank you. Also, we're joined by victim advocate Lynn Frederick-Hawley, who is the Executive Director of the Sexual Assault and Violence Intervention Program at Mount Sinai Hospital. Lynn, welcome.

Lynn Frederick-Hawley: Thank you very much. It's lovely to be here.

Tiffany Hansen: We would like for you to join this conversation. Have you offered support to someone who has been sexually assaulted? What did you say to them that you felt and they felt was helpful? What do you wish you had said? Are you dealing with someone now who is in crisis and would like to be a better ally? Call us at 212-433-9692 or you can text us at that number, 212-433-WNYC. You can reach out to us on all of the socials @allofitwnyc. Luis, you work with individuals who've gone through traumatic events in their lives. They're in crisis. What state are the people in when you first meet them, usually?

Luis Ramírez: Many of them are in a very broken state. They are engaging in a lot of self-blaming. A lot of them are still in denial at times. Many of the clients that I do get tend to come either straight from the hospital after a rape exam is to be completed. Many of them also are being sent over, and where I live in my county either through child protective services, once they get removed based on the situation. Sometimes straight from court. A lot of the clients that I do manage to see, be it children, male, female, adults are in a very broken state is what I would classify it as.

Tiffany Hansen: Fragile.

Luis Ramírez: Yes.

Tiffany Hansen: If you can generalize, and I know we are generalizing. Every story is different, every assault is different, but generally speaking, what drives someone to take that step and come to you? Do you think?

Luis Ramírez: Many of them at times are highly encouraged by their support system or by either the hospital or the courts themselves to receive services. In my area, I can say that is rare to get a client straight from day one when it happens. A lot of the clients that I do get who are voluntary tend to come months or years after the abuse has taken place so it depends.

Tiffany Hansen: Lynn, what is the first thing that you say to someone that has experienced a sexual assault?

Lynn Frederick-Hawley: I've been doing this for 30 years and I would say that although it comes across as sounding like it's trite. The most important thing I ever say to a survivor the first time they've disclosed to me is, "I'm really sorry this has happened to you." Just those words to say that you are sorry conveys so much. It conveys, first of all, you believe them and that you're empathizing with them that this is something that should not have happened to them. They did not deserve it. Those are all things I also specifically say, but starting with, "I'm really sorry this happened to you," lets them know that you're sitting in that space with them, that you're able to tolerate it and that you want to be there.

Tiffany Hansen: Lynn, we have a text. "In the mid-2000s. During my junior year of high school, a close friend of mine was sexually assaulted. They came to me for support and while I had no idea what I was doing, I knew that getting them to a hospital was important. The hospital took them so they didn't have to go to a rape crisis center. I was horrified how my friend was treated, bullied around whether or not to call the police, blamed for how they could have put themselves in that position, et cetera. I'll never forget the feeling of powerlessness. I felt like I had failed my friend. Thank you for putting this segment on the air." Lynn, have times changed?

Lynn Frederick-Hawley: I would hope so, yes. One of the things that we try desperately to do is make sure that as many rape crisis programs are directly attached to emergency departments and hospital systems as possible. That right at that moment, you do have what we consider a temporary best friend, but one who's trained and very knowledgeable about the survivor's rights, what kind of options they have, and can advocate for them right in that moment with the surrounding professionals.

The medical professionals, law enforcement, should they be there and also provide that emotional validation and be there just focused on them the whole time. That is the ideal and there's actually research that says when an advocate is present in the emergency department with that victim, other professionals rise to the occasion much better and that everything from their interactions with that survivor, that patient to their documentation improves markedly.

In New York, we're very lucky. We have at least 75 rape crisis programs across the State. We have multiple just in the city alone. The stellar idea is to have all of us in every hospital for whenever that happens. I'm sorry it happened to you and your friend. Thanks for sharing that.

Tiffany Hansen: Luis, Lynn mentioned validation. I want to talk a little bit about the kinds of things that someone who has been assaulted or is helping someone who has been assaulted may recognize in themselves. I'm talking specifically, let's start with physical effects. I'm not talking about the effects of the assault itself, but for example, sleeplessness or headaches. What do you see in that respect? Is it helpful to be able to recognize that as someone who's giving assistance in order to validate and get the help that they need?

Luis Ramírez: Yes, I do agree with that. Some of the things that tends to happen is that the safety and connection of the individual who has been abused tends to be severed and our bodies have a way of keeping score of things. It's very key for individuals around the person who's been victimized to pay attention to certain things, aside from the sleeplessness but looking at appetite, what that looks like, routines that are being changed.

There are times in which their bodies tend to react in very different somatic ways. When their dorsal vagal or ventral vagal or sympathetic nervous system is being impacted based on their emotions, the body reacts differently. Being cognizant of those things and being fully aware does help assist the individual feel that they're being seen because the individual might even know that these things are happening.

They might not make the connection that because their emotional state has been impacted by the abuse, they might not recognized those things but somebody who may know the individual better, who is paying attention sees the difference and points it out, makes a huge difference as well because that then brings awareness to the individual that there is something wrong and it has to be addressed before it gets worse.

Tiffany Hansen: Lynn, this revelation can occur at any point. There's no expiration date on these both physical and emotional results of a sexual assault or sexual abuse, right?

Lynn Frederick-Hawley: That is absolutely correct. I've seen people from it happened an hour ago and they show up in the emergency department, or it happened 25 years ago, and they're just now disclosing. They're still carrying in their bodies the physical ramifications of what has happened to their trust, to their relationships, to their brain chemistry. It really does literally alter your brain chemistry.

Tiffany Hansen: The body keeps score, right?

Lynn M. Frederick-Hawley: Yes, exactly.

Tiffany Hansen: Again, I'd like to give the number for the 24 hour National sexual Assault hotline, 800-656-4673. Please call if you need help, and if you'd like to chime in on this conversation, you can call us at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. You don't even have to talk to us. Actually, you can just text that number 212-433-9692, if you have a question for Lynn or Luis.

Luis, some signs of PTSD, which is essentially what we're talking about when we talk about mental health challenges, physiological challenges following an assault. We mentioned those can linger for quite some time. That doesn't necessarily mean that there's at any point, where someone's going to say, "It's too late. It's too late to talk. It's too late to get help. It's too late to whatever." Fill in the blank. Is that right?

Luis Ramírez: I would never say it's too late. I would agree with Lynn. The person has to be ready as well. It's one of the things that I also let patients know when they come in, I warn them of the risks as well that they may encounter when processing through these events because the fact is that depending on the timeframe that has taken place from the abuse itself.

I find it a little bit easier to help a patient process when it just happened, opposed to a patient that has waited a while or didn't recognize or didn't feel that they could have stepped up and opened up about it because at that point, the longer that it takes for them to open up and receive services and seek the treatment, it's harder because then they have to relive that again. Be it 10, 20, 25 years later down the road. I like to warn them of what they may encounter, because there is a possibility in which things will get worse before they get better for them as well.

Tiffany Hansen: Lynn, how can someone talk to a friend who has undergone a sexual assault without overstepping boundaries, or as Luis was mentioning, without maybe even retraumatizing someone by asking them to go over these events again in detail or not?

Lynn M. Frederick-Hawley: I think it's important to think about the fact that about 70% of the first reports from a survivor are going to go to a family or a friend. You have a real possibility of having a positive impact with that disclosure. There's been a lot of research done about it. The way that a person responds to their loved one saying that this has happened to them, is a very strong indicator of how well and how quickly they will recover.

Being emotionally available, being a listener more than a talker is important. Not projecting onto them, not trying to be the detective, not trying to ask about all the details. Letting that person come to you, make open-ended statements. "I'm sorry this happened to you. How can I be of support?" Giving that control back to the victim is incredibly important. Just being emotionally available, not being cold or detached makes a real difference for that person.

Tiffany Hansen: Luis, what do you say to someone who's tried to have that conversation with a family member and it went really badly?

Luis Ramírez: The first thing I do is make them feel seen and heard and validated in that moment. I apologize to them for the fact that their family member didn't believe it or didn't respond well to it. Then I just sit and listen and just listen to their story. See where they're at. Just giving them the time and space of feeling safe and secure in the environment that they're in with me goes a long way. There's been times in which I've sat in a session myself and not said a single, probably maybe two or three words throughout the whole hour because it was important for that individual just to feel that they had the space just to get it off their chest.

Like you said, without having to be asked, like Lynn said, any type of integrative questions or-- We have to be very careful and mindful of the vocabulary that is utilized as well, because one slight difference in a word in a sentence can really throw off that patient, making them feel like either they were in the wrong place at the wrong time or-- Trying our best to ensure that they're not engaging in self-blaming because they already have done that before they come to us.

Tiffany Hansen: Lynn, I mentioned, I said the body keeps score. The book of course, that I was referring to is called The Body Knows the Score. We have a text from someone that says I'm a 50-year survivor. I have been very concerned about the lack of support for older women who still have difficulty coping years later, looking for support groups, PTSD testing. She mentioned, the survivor mentioned the book as well, The Body knows the Score. Lynn, for older survivors, what do you say?

Lynn M. Frederick-Hawley: If they're coming to me after it's been years, sometimes decades, the chances that there's even been more than one traumatic event, more than one sexual assault or instance of sexual abuse in their youth. I actually commend them for coming in now, that it's never too late. That talking about it is incredibly difficult, and that their courage is one of the strengths that is going to see them through it.

We actually at SAVI at Mount Sinai, we see many, many older folks who have never told anyone, not even their families, or have told the family member years and years ago, and that person said, "Well, just get over it," and so they stuff it down. We provide therapy for them. We have specific trauma therapists just to get them used to talking about it, feel heard, feel validated, and know that there is hope no matter how long it's been.

Tiffany Hansen: Lynn, I have to correct myself. I've said it several different ways now. Apparently, I was right the first time. The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma. That's the actual title of the book. Great book. Luis, it sounds to me like what we often tell folks who have suffered the loss of a loved one, and that is that grief is not a linear process. It sounds to me that the process here for folks who are a survivor of sexual assault, sexual abuse, that that also applies. It's not a linear process.

Luis Ramírez: Correct. I actually look at it the same way when it comes to grieving itself. When a person is sexually abused despite of their age be it as a child or an adult, something is stolen from them. Something dies in that moment that that happens. It might not be a physical death like we see when our loved one dies, but it's the same process. You go through all the stages, you go through the denial, the anger, the bargaining, the resentment. Getting to the acceptance stage takes a very long time, just like it does with grief itself.

Allowing a person to know that that's okay. That there's no right or wrong way of processing through that significant emotional sociological death is important for them to understand. One of the things that I tend to focus on a lot with my patients is I utilize both cognitive processing therapy and polyvagal therapy to help them process through those things. Helping them understand and seek inward that connection that they have lost, because that journey itself is significant.

Tiffany Hansen: Lynn, I want to ask you. We have been hearing in the news recently about Harvey Weinstein. He's back at Rikers. Actually, he's in the hospital now. Of course, the news around him started coming out at the beginning of the Me Too movement. What I'm getting at is I'm wondering how the cultural and social attitudes following Me Too, have influenced the experience of survivors that you've talked to.

Lynn M. Frederick-Hawley: I think it's really been liberating. I've been in this field long enough to have seen different starts of having a movement, having an opening, where people felt more comfortable talking about these topics and things that had happened to them in terms of trauma, that have just fizzled out. Me Too is not like that. It's like it cracked open at the right time or the right place with the right momentum. What I've seen is that we have more people willing to come forward and say, "Yes, this is something that happened to me, and no, it wasn't my fault."

Which I'm hoping is then rippling out into the population so that if you're someone who's sitting at home who's had this experience and who's never discussed it, but you're watching other people say, "This happened to me, and I'm a full person, I'm an intact person, I'm still thriving." That that is helping the person who's not able to say it yet, at least feel not alone. I think it makes a tremendous impact on people's ability to come forward and to have knowledge. Anything like The Law And Order, Special Victims, things that bring it to a normalizing level like Me Too, I think is Super helpful.

Tiffany Hansen: Luis, we just have a minute here left before we go. What is the one thing you can say to someone who is looking to help a survivor? What's one way that they can help empower someone in need? What's the one thing they could say?

Luis Ramírez: The one thing that I would tell somebody if I was helping a survivor, would just be telling them to tell the whole story without censorship, because the individual that hurt them, didn't ask for permission, didn't bleep it, didn't give that person the PG version of the abuse. Allowing that person to feel empowered, to tell the story as raw as it can be, I think it's highly empowering for that individual not to feel like they have to be censored in front of the individual that's helping them process this information.

Tiffany Hansen: Lynn, you agree?

Lynn Frederick-Hawley: I do agree. One of the other things that we know from research with victims is that even if you're trying to be a believer and a supportive person, but then the survivor ends up having to take care of you because your emotional response is so intense, that that is not helpful. Have your own outlet, have your own plan that you need to go do something to take care of it because it's hard to hear--

Tiffany Hansen: Lynn, sorry, we're going to have to leave it there.

Lynn Frederick-Hawley: Exactly. I get it.

Tiffany Hansen: Lynn Frederick-Hawley is the Executive Director of Sexual Assault and Violence Intervention Program at Mount Sinai Hospital. Luis Ramirez is the founder of Rising Potential Counseling. Thank you both so much for the conversation. Listeners, stay with us. We have much more of All Of It coming up.

 

Copyright © 2024 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.