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Matt Katz: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Matt Katz filling in for Alison Stewart today. Coming up in a bit, we're going to talk with a writer named Maura Cheeks about her debut novel, but first, we're here with another writer about what it takes to actually get there, to go from thinking about writing a book to having written a book. The main thing, and maybe this is obvious, is to write. My guest for this conversation is Jami Attenberg, author of the 2022 memoir I Came All This Way to Meet You and the 2019 novel All This Could Be Yours, both of which started with a word count of zero, as all books do.

Her latest book is called 1000 Words: A Writer's Guide to Staying Creative, Focused, and Productive All Year Round. It's a collection of thoughts that Attenberg has amassed from her own experience. Back in 2018, she had a writer friend put themselves through a boot camp of sorts to write 1000 words every day no matter what, even if it was a 1000-word letter to herself about her hopes, and dreams, and doubts for the story, instead of actually writing the story itself. It's about flexing the writing muscle, no matter what.

In addition to her own thoughts on the creative process, in this book, Attenberg has collected submissions on the topic from dozens of other writers, including Roxane Gay, Min Jin Lee, Kristen Arnett, Meg Wolitzer, and Lauren Groff, Rumaan Alam, Alexander Chee. Let's get into it with Jami Attenberg. Hi, Jami.

Jami Attenberg: Hi, how are you?

Matt Katz: Doing great. Thank you for being here. Listeners, if you're working on a writing project and could use some motivation or structure or just need some juice in the process, give us a call at 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. We can take your questions on getting your creative juices flowing and your stories about what writing practices have worked for your creative process or tell us about it all just via social @allofitwnyc. All right, Jami, tell us the origin story here. This idea of writing 1,000 words a day for two weeks, it just started with you and a friend, and then it ballooned very quickly.

Jami Attenberg: Yes, it did. I tweeted that I was going to do it. I'm a fairly online person that first year and a couple hundred people replied on Twitter immediately that they wanted to do it with me. I just set up a mailing list, and I asked a couple of writer friends to write letters, too. I think that first year, we had 200 people, and then it turned into 2,000 people by the end of it. We all were writing together. We all have the hashtag of 1000wordsofsummer. We're all kind of checking in with each other. We became each other's accountability partners, which was a really fun kind of, honestly, nerdy time that we had together.

I kept doing it year after year. Every year, it doubled in size. It was 5,000 people, and then 10,000. Now, I think this summer, it will be close to 40,000 people doing it. We had all these great letters along the way from all these different writers. So much good has come out of it. People have finished their master's thesis, written entire novels, gotten agents, gotten book deals, just built writing cohorts out of it, created their own separate online communities out of it. I create the structure for every year, but then people find their way to it and connect with each other. It's just really the best thing that I've ever done with my life, to be honest.

Matt Katz: Wow, that's amazing. They're all just connecting via the hashtag on whatever social media platforms? Is that how people are knowing about it?

Jami Attenberg: That originally was how it worked when Twitter was still kind of Twitter. Now, I think a couple of years ago, I created a Slack. There's probably 4,000 or 5,000 people that are in that Slack. Then, of course, you get the letter every day, and people will post comments on the newsletter. People find each other through Instagram. Sometimes, I don't know how they find each other. It's great. Accountability partners is a great tenant to getting started on your writing, I think. It's helpful to know you're not alone.

Matt Katz: The biggest obstacle I imagine is just starting. Do you have thoughts on that? How can the 1000 words approach just help people who might already-- they might be experienced writers, but they're trying to write a thing, and they can't even necessarily-- or they get down and sit down and write or they procrastinate or whatnot. Is the idea to just say, "1000 words is just a little bit. All you have to do is sit down, bang that out, and you've achieved something for the day"?

Jami Attenberg: Yes, that's a great mindset because it doesn't have to be a perfect 1000 words. One thing I would say is that 1000 Words has really become a metaphor because not everybody is really able to write 1000 words a day, especially for two weeks straight because we all have lives, and lives can get in the way of that, or also maybe they're never going to write more than 250 words a day or 500 words, or maybe you're a poet and you're not writing a 1000 words of poetry a day, or maybe you're a screenplay writer or you're writing your master's thesis or something like that.

A 1000 words really means a good day's work. I think people know what that is for themselves, which is just sort of sitting down, being with yourself, showing up for yourself, whatever that means for you. It can be making sure that you get your reading done. It can be creating a space for yourself in your house or figuring out a time in your schedule to do it. You do have to sit down and do something. You do have to sit down with yourself and say, "I need to show up for myself in this way."

Matt Katz: People write in all different kinds of-- use all different media to write in terms of like the Google Docs or a typewriter or on their phone or longhand. Is it all of those things?

Jami Attenberg: I think so. I don't see what people write necessarily, but I personally handwrite first, and then I'll type it up later on in the day. I use two different parts of the brain, handwriting versus typing. Sometimes, I'll just put it in my cell phone first. I like it when it's messy first, and I'm willing to make mistakes. I encourage people to make mistakes because you're sort of free yourself to be more creative and innovative when it doesn't have to be perfect. I know there are people who are just using typewriters. I know that there are people who use all different kinds of applications for it. I'm a Microsoft Word girl. I'm Gen X.

Matt Katz: Oh, wow, that's cool.

Jami Attenberg: I'm sticking with that.

Matt Katz: You got it. Listeners, are you working on a writing project? Could you use some motivation or structure or some thoughts on just even getting started? Give us a call, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. We can take your questions on getting your creative juices flowing. We can hear stories about your writing practices or you can hit us up on the social media @allofitwnyc. I was wondering about your writer's compass, which is really a set of guidelines that you set for yourself, make sure you're writing something that aligns with yourself. Can you speak to that a bit? Why is it important to have that compass?

Jami Attenberg: For me, my writer's compass is what I think of is my set of ethics. It's something that I apply to any project that I'm going to do. When I decide that I'm going to fully commit to writing a novel. For example, I always have to have a strong female protagonist. I always have to be committing to a brand new structure than one I've done before in a previous book before. I always have to be exploring the idea of compassion in my work. I think that it helps you develop a through line to what you're doing so that you can always go back to it, you can always return to it.

There's a structure of a book that is your basic outline, the beginning, the middle, the end, the plot points, things like that. There's something deeper, I think, that can go on in writing, even writing fiction or nonfiction alike where you just want to know what the message is and what the rules of engagement are for you.

Matt Katz: You say those changed for you to some degree from project to project? You want to use a different structure.

Jami Attenberg: I do want to use a different structure.

Matt Katz: You keep the female protagonist, but you want to use a different structure.

Jami Attenberg: I want to make sure that it feels fun, and fresh, and new. That's my personal philosophy is that I hope that people, when they read my work, are going to have a certain anticipation, "Oh, it's going to be funny. It's going to be wise in a certain way." I hope that people understand, they'll get an experience from it, but I do always want to keep things experimenting each time.

Matt Katz: In the introduction to the book, 1000 Words: A Writer's Guide to Staying Creative, Focused, and Productive All Year Round, you give us a number of helpful images that help frame the task of creativity. You write that the work is the ship, and then you describe a boat journey across an ocean. Can you explain what the lesson is in that image?

Jami Attenberg: The lesson is to not jump off the ship before you make it to the other shore. I think one of the things that I say in there is do not jump off the ship, do not apply to law school before you make it to the end of the journey. It's a long road from beginning to middle to end of a book, but it’s worth it. It’s worth the ride. It's worth making it to the other side because once you get to the end, you can fix it. I think that there is this need or insecurity in people where they feel like every word has to be perfect as they go along, and that's just simply not the case. You really just have to make it to the end, and then go through, and then edit things when you get there. It's about I think the book itself, and what I really believe is that we need momentum in our writing to get us to the end.

My book is really encouraging people to find ways to achieve that momentum, and to believe in themselves, to give themselves permission to do their work. Nobody gives us that permission except for ourselves. Hopefully, this book can encourage people to do that.

Matt Katz: We have a question from Barbara in the Bronx. I think it might be a simple question, but it may be a question that a lot of other people have. Hey, Barbara.

Barbara: Hi. How are you?

Matt Katz: Doing great. Thanks for calling in.

Barbara: You're welcome. I want to ask a very simple question. I'm almost embarrassed asking it. How do you count the words? I don't know how to count the words. I have no idea when I've got 1000.

Matt Katz: Jami, take it away.

Jami Attenberg: That's a really good question. If you're handwriting, you can obviously sit there and count through them. In general, about 1000 words is about four and a half pages of writing. If you have an application like Word or Google Docs or something like that, it'll do a word count for you. I generally think it's about four and a half pages of writing.

Matt Katz: There you go, Barbara. If you're using Google Docs, you can go to Tools, and then under Tools, it says Word Counts, and it'll count your words. Any computer will do it automatically.

Jami Attenberg: We are here for tech support.

Matt Katz: Absolutely. [laughs]

Jami Attenberg: We can support you.

Matt Katz: Let's take Kathleen in Washington Heights. Hi, Kathleen.

Kathleen: Hey there. I'm so glad that you have your guest on today. I am going to order your book. I am in the process of trying to finish a play. It's the first draft, but of course, it's not the first first draft. I've gotten about, I guess halfway through, and I think I know the ending. I feel like I've hit a roadblock. I'm not sure how to proceed. I know about sitting down and doing this every day, but I often feel a failure if I don't actually attend to the words in the play.

Matt Katz: Wow. Kathleen, you're not a failure. You're writing a play. It's amazing.

Jami Attenberg: I know. Congratulations. Plays are really hard. I've never even tried to do it because I find it so daunting, and I admire playwrights so much. What I would say is go and find inspiration in other places, meaning go see a play or read a play or read outside of your wheelhouse, read some poetry, read a novel, something like that. Anything that will get your brain stirring. Also what I find when I'm really stuck halfway through a project, because you are not alone, it happens to everyone, it truly does, is I just try to write a letter to myself about why I started the project in the first place.

I go back to the beginning, and I think about what my impetus was, the things that I wanted to say, the things even sometimes that I'm trying to prove to myself by doing this work. I think that that always puts a little charge into me again. It's not just about making your art. It's often sometimes about proving something to yourself too.

Matt Katz: Great advice, Jami. Thanks. Brian in Harlem. You're on the air. Hi.

Brian: Hi. I just wanted to bring up an observation from Jerry Seinfeld who said something sort of similar. He didn't say 1000 words, he said two hours a day, which is-- Considering the type of writing he does, makes sense. He also added that what really helps is having a visual reminder. Now, his system and my system is a little bit different. His system was to put up a 12-month calendar on a place in the wall that's going to be visible. You're going to see it every day. After you do your two hours, you put an X across that day. Then you see all those Xs, and it gives you a sense of self-satisfaction. If you don't do the X at the end of the day, you think, "Maybe I should go back to that." I think the visual reminder is very helpful.

Matt Katz: Jami?

Jami Attenberg: You know what I do is I just really write down my word count for the day when I'm done at the end of the day. I just have a running track of it inside of whatever journal I'm using, and I put a date next to it just so I know. Just so I know that I'm there, that I'm present, that it's not all-- I think it's such a imaginary thing in a lot of ways when you're writing or doing any kind of creative work in your head.

I think that's why that number is so meaningful to me because it’s one of the few tangible things as part of this process. It is such a long haul of a year or two where you're by yourself, and you're sitting in your head in your own space. It's rich and meaningful and fulfilling to have that experience in your head, but still, you want to know, "Did I get anywhere today?"

Matt Katz: Thanks, Brian. I feel like you must just need a reminder that you accomplished something, and have that sense of satisfaction, and that bridges you to the next day. That gives you the confidence to keep going. I imagine that's super helpful. We're going to take a quick break. We will be right back with Jami Attenberg, author of 1000 Words.

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Matt Katz: You're listening to All Of It. I'm Matt Katz filling in for Alison Stewart today. We're talking with author Jami Attenberg who wrote the new book, 1000 Words: A Writer's Guide to Staying Creative, Focused, and Productive All Year Round.

We got a question from text that I want to share with you real quick here, Jami. "I'm writing a biography, and have been at it for 11 years." Wow. "I'm in my seventh draft, and I can safely say that this has been the most difficult thing I've done in my life. One of the things I struggle with is repetition, number one, and the emotional journey. Do you have any recommendations on books that are written about writing a biography in particular?" I imagine this is a biography and not an autobiography.

Jami Attenberg: I'm not an expert in that area, I must admit. What I would say is that it does sound maybe this person with a question might need some readers, might need to share that work with somebody else. I find that that's really helpful to be in terms of-- A proofreader, for example, is really helpful in terms of figuring out the repetitions as things go along. It sounds like it's been a really long time that you've been working on it. I'm just wondering if you've shared it with anyone else. I don't know about any-- I'm sorry I can't recommend a book for you. It does feel that is such a long journey. I'm hoping that you're able to interact with other people about it.

Matt Katz: Sharing with other people can be difficult because you can be anxious about what they might say, but it also is important, and particularly maybe in this part of the process. That's good advice. I want to go back to the phone lines. Charlie in Deal, New Jersey. Hi, Charlie.

Charlie: Hi. How are you?

Matt Katz: Doing great. Thanks for calling in.

Charlie: Thank you. Nice to have you as the host today, and thank you also, getting a lot out of this episode.

Matt Katz: Oh, great.

Charlie: I wanted to say a couple of things real quick. I read the book by Annie Dillard, The Writing Life about 30 years ago. I was very, very moved by that book, and I'm going to look forward to picking this book up. Also for quite some time now, maybe 25 years, I've been writing commercially for clients a couple of pages at a time, documents, negotiations, fundraising pieces, all kinds of stuff. It's very well received. I charge a lot of money for it. I have not been able to get myself into a recreational direction.

Only recently, because I don't have anybody with me, I work alone basically, I had a meeting with the mayor in my town here in New Jersey, and they said, "We're slotting you in." I think they said 15 or 30 minutes. I don't do 15 minutes. I wrote them a whole letter of everything I want to talk about so I could leave them with it. One of the points was we wanted a fireplace in the local library. I've been talking to the librarians, and one of the women is a friend of mine who I go in there all the time. I gave her a copy of the letter, and then I stopped in the next day and she said, "Hey, how you doing?" I said, "I got one question." She said, "What's that?" It was a three-page letter. I said, "Am I a writer or not?" She said, "Oh, you're a writer," she told me. "You're some writer."

[laughter]

Matt Katz: That's great. You're having trouble adjusting your brain, Charlie, to write more personally, recreationally?

Charlie: I don't have the formal education to take the story in my brain and start structuring it onto a piece of pa-- I type in Word, also, by the way.

Matt Katz: Jami, do you have any thoughts?

Jami Attenberg: Hopefully, you're reading a lot. That's the way that I-- I had an undergraduate degree in writing, but I didn't get an MFA, and I definitely think writing is for everyone no matter what level of education you've had. I really want to make writing feel accessible to everyone. I think that if you really would like to get started, I would suggest taking a writing workshop, and finding a community of peers that are at the same level that you're at, and they just want to dive in and get started and have an instructor who might teach you a little bit about it. That would be my recommendation.

Matt Katz: Love that advice. Thanks for calling in. Any other listeners, if you're working on a writing project, use a little motivation, maybe need some advice, give us a call, 212-433-WNYC, or you can hit us up on social media @allofitwnyc. Jami, you've picked out a couple of selections from your book. This book is filled with some quite well-known writers who have offered their ideas and thoughts on writing. Do you mind reading in a contribution from us, maybe Ada Limón?

Jami Attenberg: Sure. Ada Limón, who is America's poet laureate, generously contributed a letter a couple of years ago. I loved it so much. She said, "I think one of the things that helps me write is simply silence. It's boring, I know, but we are never quiet anymore. When was the last time you were out for a walk and didn't listen to music or a podcast or a book or decided to call your mother?

Silence is where the writing comes from. That voice underneath the voice that we try our best to tamp down and gag with distractions and anxiety-inducing, self-loathing. If we are really listening though, the world opens up in a way that it doesn't to everyone all the time. It opens as a way of being generous to us, a reward for listening. We have to be tender to the world. We have to make ourselves tender to the world. We must be the receiver before we can be the maker. It doesn't have to be a meditation, but it helps, or long walks on the beach. It can be a small errand you choose to do in silence, laundry, a drive to the pharmacy, weeding. If you can allow yourself that space, a shift will happen.

Underneath the buzz of the world, there's a story starting, a poem beginning, a deep noticing that it once feels surreal and more real than anything else. That's where the writing begins."

Matt Katz: Wow. Is that why I get so many good writing thoughts or just writing thoughts in general in the shower because I'm not listening to anything, I'm not doing anything else? Fascinating, that's great.

Jami Attenberg: It's quite comforting isn't it, silence?

Matt Katz: It is. Absolutely. You need to not be intaking things in order to have the space to then create. Wow, wonderful. Let's go back to the phone lines. Is Tony there? Tony from Manhattan.

Tony: Yes.

Matt Katz: Hi, Tony.

Tony: Hi. I'm primarily interested in screenplay writing. My problem is that when I sit down at the computer, I am trying to write the last draft in the first go-round. That causes me to be sitting there thinking much more than tapping words out. I know that's not the way to do it, but somehow I need some convincing.

Jami Attenberg: I feel like you might want to start handwriting a little bit first because I think that there's something about sitting in front of the computer screen. I know it's adding an extra layer of work to you, but hear me out because you did ask the question, and this is what I would do. I think when we sit in front of the computer screen as a starting point, there's something in our brain that clicks on that it needs to be perfect. Whereas when you are sitting and just handwriting, it becomes more truthful, it's more honest, it's more liberating. Even if you're just coming up with ideas, brainstorming ideas, things like that, I think it's going to be more freeing for you.

It sounds to me like the computer screen is pressuring you. You're getting some sort of pressure from it. I would just take a step away from the computer screen. Just take a step away. Everyone needs to take a step away from their phones also and just go and sit somewhere that's-- You can go sit in a beautiful library, you could sit in the café, you could sit in the park. Oh, I guess it's a little cold in New York right now. Go sit somewhere away from it all, and just with a notebook, and just write the purest parts of what you want to say.

Matt Katz: That's great advice. Maybe don't write it in the same-- if you're using Word or you're using Google Docs, maybe use a notebook if you need to make a rougher draft or use a different medium. Maybe that can help.

Jami Attenberg: I am pro-technology, I am. I love technology, but it also can be a trap for us. I think it just does something to our psyche where we just think everything needs to be filled, finished, and perfect, and done. Things don't get finished or perfect or done until way far along in the process.

Matt Katz: We have a text from a listener. He or she said, "My sixteen-year-old daughter is quite a good writer, but she has little confidence in herself and a short attention span. What can I do to encourage her and keep her writing?"

Jami Attenberg: I don't know how to improve somebody's confidence level. I think reading can be helpful in that way because I hope she's reading lots of books because that teaches us empathy, that teaches us that we're not alone. I think that's really a good starting point. I'm not a parent, and so without knowing too much, but I wonder if you could start a book club with your kid [chuckles] where you're reading the same thing every week together or every couple of weeks so that you both have to show up for each other and you both have to talk about books, and maybe there will be some sort of kindling of love of literature in that way, and focus in that way.

Matt Katz: That's great advice. Do you want to read one more of your contributors to the book before we let you go?

Jami Attenberg: Sure. I'm going to read a little bit of Roxane Gay's letter.

Matt Katz: Perfect.

Jami Attenberg: "One of the greatest gift you can give yourself as a writer is to take yourself seriously. This does not mean you should take yourself too seriously, but it does mean that if you love writing, you put in the work of writing. You are a writer. You don't need to ask anyone if you can call yourself a writer. You don't need to reach a certain publishing threshold. So long as you put pen to paper or fingers to keyboard, you are a writer.

I am also a big believer in that diminishing our writing. So many writers will talk about their writing in the most dismissive ways. They quote, 'Wrote a thing,' or offer a few self-deprecating words before sharing a new publication. Sure, most of us deal with low self-esteem, but if you're taking yourself seriously as a writer, you need to believe your writing deserves to be treated with respect and care. You don't need to be arrogant, but it's okay to be proud.

Writing takes effort and time and imagination. It's okay to acknowledge that you're invested in your craft. It's okay to give a damn about your writing. Yes, if such is the case, it's okay to be confident. When you write something that's great, own that, say that. Those moments of confidence can be painfully fleeting. Enjoy them while you can."

Matt Katz: Yes, it can be. That's great. Excellent advice. Before we let you go, Jami, we had a caller, A in Bushwick. A was looking for a writing prompt for today. If you wanted to come up with a writing prompt to get A started--

Jami Attenberg: Oh, goodness. On the fly.

Matt Katz: It might be a lot of pressure.

Jami Attenberg: I've been talking a lot about winter lately when I've been teaching workshops, and so I would say if you're writing fiction, think about winter, how it impacts your character directly. If you're writing about yourself, think about a winter from your childhood.

Matt Katz: Great.

Jami Attenberg: Can I just mention the actual 1000 Words of Summer? Is that okay?

Matt Katz: Sure.

Jami Attenberg: It's this summer. It starts June 1st. It's for two weeks. You can find out about it on 1000wordsofsummer.substack.com. I will be doing a launch in New York City at the Hudson Park Library where we're all going to write in-person together.

Matt Katz: That'll be in June?

Jami Attenberg: June 1st.

Matt Katz: Excellent. Great. Jami Attenberg is the author of 1000 Words: A Writer's Guide to Staying Creative, Focused, and Productive All Year Round. Jami, thanks so much for joining us on All Of It.

Jami Attenberg: Thank you. Bye.

 

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