[MUSIC - Luscious Jackson: Citysong]

Kate Hinds: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Kate Hinds, in for Alison Stewart. Thank you for spending part of this spring Wednesday with us. Speaking of spring, coming up later on the show today, we're going to talk about herb gardening and how to grow all of your favorite flavorful, green garnishes and earthy aromatics. Stephen Orr is the editor in chief of Better Homes & Gardens, and he will join us with some best practices and take your herb gardening calls. Then later in the show we'll talk about the 13th annual Photoville Festival that's launching this weekend, and then the Brooklyn-based band Habibi will be here to share some music from their forthcoming album. That's the plan. Let's get things started now with some Judy Collins.

[MUSIC - Judy Collins: Mountain Girl]

Kate Hinds: Yes, that is the voice of the incomparable Judy Collins singing Mountain Girl, the song she opened with at her recent concert at Town Hall. She dedicated much of the evening to performing the songs from her iconic 1967 album, Wildflowers. The cameras were rolling that evening, meaning that whether you were there or not, you will be able to get the Judy Collins concert experience right from the comfort of your own home, because starting tomorrow, the PBS app will be streaming the entirety of Judy Collins Wildflowers in Concert. I'm so excited to have Judy joining me in studio to talk about the show and her music. Judy, welcome back to WNYC.

Judy Collins: Oh, thank you. I am such a big fan of WNYC. It just makes the day go faster and better. [laughs]

Kate Hinds: I'm so glad to hear that. Now you've got the WYC tote bag you can wear proudly.

Judy Collins: I do. I get to carry home all kinds of things.

Kate Hinds: Let's set the table right now by talking about that recent Town Hall performance of Wildflowers. When you think about your life and music, what emotional space does this album occupy for you? What was it like to revisit it recently?

Judy Collins: Well, it's an important album for me for a lot of reasons. First of all, it contains the first recording of Both Sides Now. Of course, that's a miracle because in 1967, and this is 1967, that the album was made, and I was blessed with a phone call from Al Kooper early in the year, at 3:00 in the morning, by the way. I said, "Why are you calling? Should I call you a doctor or something?" He said, "No, no, no, I ran into this girl in the bar." He started, of course, Blood, Sweat, and Tears, Al did, and she told me that she wrote songs. I said, "Are they any good?" She said, "Oh, yes." He said, "I followed her home because she was also good-looking. I figured I couldn't lose." She picked up the guitar and started singing, and I thought, "I have to call Judy." Here I was at 3:00. He knew my phone number by heart, which nowadays nobody would know anybody's number by heart.

He put her on the phone and she sang me Both Sides Now. I said, "I'll be right over." [chuckles] Which I was the next day. Wildflowers is is full of firsts. Of course, Both Sides Now is one of the first firsts. It has my first three songs, which were inspired by-- ever since then, I've written songs, and thank God that I met Leonard Cohen the previous year. He said to me, "I don't know why you're not writing your own songs," which I had never really thought of. There were so many wonderful writers, most of whom I hijacked and put on records that I made and I sang. A lot of them were songs that had never been released before.

Kate Hinds: We don't say hijacked, we say interpreted.

Judy Collins: Oh, that's right. Sorry.

[laughter]

I'll take hijacked any minute. [chuckles] It gives a flavor to the moment. Anyway, interpreted my own songs as well as Joni. And there's another song of Joni's called Michael for Mountains, which I don't think people really know very well, but it was Leonard Cohen's songs and Joni's and mine. Who else was on the record? Let me see. Who else. I didn't bring my purse with me.

Kate Hinds: We also have an Italian song and a French song.

Judy Collins: Oh, a French song. Jacques Brel comes up and La chanson des vieux amants which is one of his best and brightest and saddest of songs. I was lucky enough to meet and hear Jacques Brel the two times that he was in the United States. Both of those shows were at Carnegie Hall. I fell in love with La chanson des vieux amants among others. It's an album that was full of, as I say, full of firsts.

Kate Hinds: Before we go much further, I want to tell listeners, we can take calls. What is your favorite part of Wildflowers? What does it mean to you? Let us know. Give us a call at 212433 WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. You can also text us at that number and a special invite to anyone who might've actually been in the audience at Judy's recent Wildflowers performance at Town Hall, or maybe any of her live performances because you are of course still touring. Let us know how that experience was for you. 212-433-WNYC or hit us up on our socials @AllOfItWNYC.

You've talked about how Wildflowers has your original work on it, as well as Joni Mitchell and Leonard Cohen, how do you think about the way these songs are all in conversation with each other?

Judy Collins: Well, there's definitely a conversation. Partly, it's about youth and young and optimistic work. I think that's really the basis of it. This was my seventh album. I started recording in 1961 for Electro Records, and I started out doing mostly traditional songs. Then I moved to the village and everybody in town who wrote songs would say, "Hi." [laughs] Tom Paxton would come down the street and he'd say, "Oh, by the way, I just wrote this song, bottle of Wine, fruit on the Vine, when you going to let me get sober?" He'd say, "You want to record that?" Which I did, of course.

It was such a marvelously rich in the contrast with what was going on in Vietnam. I think that in a way, sets those early recordings by me and many others against this tide of insanity that was going on in Vietnam and doom and destruction and pain and people losing their lives there and here sometimes. I think we have post-traumatic stress up to the eyeballs starting in the beginning of the world, but particularly we feel it strongly when we run into something like Vietnam, which is an impossible situation to overcome.

Kate Hinds: Yes, you talked a little bit during the Town Hall performance about 1967 and what was going on that year. There was a lot, The Summer of Love and Vietnam and also the Supreme Court striking down anti-miscegenation laws.

Judy Collins: Yes. There was so many opportunities to be hopeful and also to be despairing. Then on the other hand, to try to correct the direction in which we were going. I was friendly with, of course, many, many artists who made a huge difference. People of course, like Joan Baez and John whose wife I was-- John Phillips. He wrote The Summer of Love. if you go to San Francisco, beautiful song. Many things were happening during that time. PBS started in 1967.

Kate Hinds: Perfect. We talk about the stress and also the optimism. When we watch you perform at Town Hall and you open with Mountain Girl, people that hear the song on the radio won't be able to see this but when you ev between almost every line, you are pulling your microphone away from your face and just smiling. That's really wonderful to see. What's making you smile?

Judy Collins: I was amazed that I was there.

[laughter]

Kate Hinds: Listeners, we'd love to bring you into the conversation. 212-433-9692. Let's talk right now to Nancy in Suriname. Hi, Nancy.

Nancy: Hi.

Kate Hinds: How are you?

Nancy: Hi, Judy.

Judy Collins: Hi there.

Nancy: I'm fine, thank you. Hi, Judy, it's Nancy Wright. I'm calling from Suriname. I'm glad I happened to see this.

Judy Collins: Oh my God.

Kate Hinds: I guess you two know each other.

Judy Collins: Tell us where Suriname is, Nancy.

Nancy: Suriname is a small country. It's part of the Guana region in the northern part of South America, smallest South American country. It is carbon negative over 90%, primary forest cover. A lot of diversity. A lot of religious coexistence that's rather peaceful. Which is unusual these days.

Judy Collins: Very.

Nancy: It's a country that has a-- that's not that well known but it has a lot to offer and it also has a lot of oil reserves--

Judy Collins: Oh.

Nancy: -- off offshore. We need to see this country. We need to send good energy and prayers and hopes that this country's leadership will keep it in a good direction, we must say--

Judy Collins: Nancy.

Nancy: For the world and--

Judy Collins: Nancy.

Nancy: -- for its own people.

Judy Collins: Nancy, can you explain to our audience why you come to see many of my concerts?

[laughter]

Nancy: Oh, my goodness. [laughs] Let me just say anybody that has a chance to see Wildflowers go, even if you have to go out of town to see it, see it. Just go and see it. Let me just say that. That's interesting. I actually didn't see you live very much back in the '70s, '80s. I was very young in the '70s and into the '90s. I had been teaching in India and I was just Googling and I saw that you were going to sing at the Carlisle and it was about the time I was coming back and that was of course an intimate venue. I heard you and I said, "Oh my gosh, this voice is not only excellent and still here. It's not just sustained, it's regenerative."

You've taken your voice into a totally other realm that few artists do. It's not if people say, "Oh, she sounds the same as she did 50 years ago." No, you've gone somewhere else with it and that's most unusual--

Kate Hinds: Nancy.

Nancy: -- I just wanted to follow that.

Kate Hinds: I'm just going to dive in.

Judy Collins: Thank you.

Kate Hinds: Thank you so much for that. Speaking of your voice Judy, let's listen to one of your tracks from Wildflowers. I don't want to give away too much from the concert film. From here on out, we'll be hearing music from the original 1967 studio recordings. This is Albatross.

[MUSIC - Judy Colins: Albatross]

Kate Hinds: We've talked about how you interpret music written by other people when you perform them. When it comes to performing your own music, does it still feel like interpretation or are you channeling the same emotional energy but from a different place than you would for a song written by Leonard Cohen?

Judy Collins: I channeled Judy Collins. That's where I go with it. That's the only thing to do and it really doesn't matter. Yes, it's very personal. That song in particular, Wildflowers in Wildflowers is called Albatross. I wrote it after I had a visit with Joan Baez in 1966, the year before this was recorded. When I came back, I wrote Wildflowers. Of course it has that darkness in the chorus and in the night, the hard bells ringing with pain come away alone.

I think Joan's an amazing artist and she has been a good friend. At many points in our lives, our paths crossed. I was very, very close to her sister, particularly Mimi Fariña, Baez Fariña. She has many aspects of her personality and they're very dark and also light and incandescent in a way. She's a very special artist. She is just put out a book of poetry. I got a copy. She has a poem about me in it. She sent me a lovely copy with a lovely note but she's very special. The song really came out of I think that respect and appreciation for all of the different sides of her personality as a singer and a human being. I was thrilled to write it.

Singing my own songs is a wonderful feeling. Hopefully, they're good songs.

[laughter]

You have to choose the better songs.

Kate Hinds: I think our board full of callers would agree that they are good songs. We need to take a quick break right now but we will hear more from Judy Collins and listen to more music from Wildflowers right after a quick break. Stay with us. This is All Of It.

[music]

Kate Hinds: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Kate Hinds in for Alison Stewart and I'm joined by Judy Collins, iconic singer and songwriter. Listeners, we are taking your calls. Right now, let's talk to Anthony in Westport. Hi, Anthony.

Anthony: Hi. Thank you for taking my call. Judy, I saw your performance at the Westport Country Playhouse recently.

Judy Collins: Oh.

Anthony: You were wonderful.

Judy Collins: [laughs] Thank you.

Anthony: Your voice is absolutely is beautiful if not better than ever. Your humor was wonderful. The audience loved you. It was such a special night. I'm so glad I was there.

Judy Collins: Thank you. Thank you for coming.

Kate Hinds: You've been performing for many years and you're still out on the road. How do you take care of yourself and your voice?

Judy Collins: I'm very lucky. I've worked on all those aspects of diet and exercise and therapy and I don't drink anymore. [chuckles] Always, one of my favorite things to tell people is that I didn't do many drugs because I was afraid that they would interfere with my drinking. [chuckles] I'm now 46 years sober and I turned 85 this past month and I always say 85 is the new 27. Altogether, I think if you work at what you love and you take care of yourself and you don't smoke anymore so sad and you don't-- [chuckles]

Kate Hinds: Sad that you once smoked or sad that you--

Judy Collins: Sad that I can't anymore. It's been a long many, many, many years since I did. I think if you put together something that achieves your daily goals, then you can get to longevity more easily.

Kate Hinds: That makes a lot of sense. Let's talk now to Paul in Washington Heights. Hi, Paul. You're on All Of It.

Paul: Oh, thank you for taking my call. Judy in 1968, I was a young 21-year-old. Of course like many in my generation, totally in love with you.

Judy Collins: [chuckles] Thank you.

Paul: I had been drafted and was about to set off for bootcamp. The last piece of music that I heard as I left the house with my father was Both Sides Now.

Judy Collins: Oh.

Paul: The sadness and hope and uncertainty in that song was ideal for that moment and it was quite a bonding moment for me and my father. I want to thank you after all these years.

Judy Collins: Oh.

Paul: For preparing me for that experience.

Judy Collins: God bless you, and thank you for your service.

Kate Hinds: Paul, thank you so much for calling. You've said Judy in other interviews that when it comes to songs like Both Sides Now, you're looking for magic. Something that you can connect to put your own stamp on it. What was the magic you heard in Both Sides Now?

Judy Collins: Oh, it was undeniable. There was in the middle of the night, she was in a downtown somewhere. When I hear a song that hits the right nerve, that's when I fall in love with it. It doesn't matter. I was a concert pianist. I studied the piano for years. I played with orchestras. I had incredible teaching in that area but also as a singer, I found my teacher with whom I studied for 32 years in 1965 and Harry Belafonte's piano player and Chuck Israel's parents told me who to go to. It was the same person. I've been lucky in both areas but also my father was a great singer of The Great American Songbook. You know Rogers and Hart and Rogers and Hammerstein.

We now refer to that as the Rod Stewart collection. I knew, my mother would say to me, "You didn't invent this thing you have, your father did it as well. Pick out the best song around and then if you fall in love with it, record it and perform it." That's the secret. If there is one, that's it.

Kate Hinds: Let's listen to a little bit more music. I want to hear your version of the Leonard Cohen song, Priests. Let's listen.

[MUSIC – Judy Collins: Priests]

Kate Hinds: What does it mean to sing a song written by someone that you've had such a close relationship with over the years?

Judy Collins: Well, Leonard and I met in 1966 and after he had sung me, Suzanne and I had recorded Suzanne, he called me up, and he said, "Well, now you've made me famous," and I said, "Well, isn't that good?" He said, "Well, yes, of course, but I don't understand why you're not writing your own songs which is why I started writing my own songs." With Leonard, he would send me a little tape every few months, a little reel-to-reel tape and would say, "Now pick out the songs that you want."

In the case of Priests, it's interesting that I recorded it, Richie Havens recorded it, Leonard Cohen recorded it. Someone other than I and Richie and Leonard might have recorded it I don't really know. The song moved me from the moment that I sang it. With Leonard, Leonard was such a good friend and so deeply committed to his work. I did a favor for him after he did a favor for me. I told him that he had to sing his own songs, and he said, "No, no, no, I don't want to sing them, I want all you guys to sing them."

Judy Collins: We have a caller who is asking if you are responsible for encouraging Leonard Cohen to sing, to perform on stage?

Kate Hinds: Yes.

Judy Collins: Wow. I want to take another caller right now. This is Mark calling from Sunnyside, Queens. Hi, Mark.

Mark: Hi there. Judy, you have been just such a huge part of my life from the time I was 12 years old. My brother introduced me to Leonard Cohen's poetry when I was 12 and I remember, when In My Life came out and then the following year with Wildflowers, it was poetry that no one else that I listened to had been performing. We had pop music of that era which was completely on a different level and hearing complex songs like Since You've Asked and, Albatross and Priests just spoke to me in a very tangible way. I'm 70 years old now, it's been 57 years since you've been in my life and thank you.

Kate Hinds: [chuckles] Thank you so much for joining the journey. Thank you.

Judy Collins: Also, I'd love to hear from Debbie in Manhattan. Hi, Debbie, you're on All Of It.

Debbie: Hi. How are you doing? I wanted to say that the first time I heard Judy Collins' voice was the Suzanne song. I didn't even recognize her voice, and I loved it so much. Then my brother got an album of hers for Christmas one year, and so I love that album. I'm just going to play a little tiny bit of one of her songs that I love if that's okay with you.

Judy Collins: When you say play, do you mean sing?

Debbie: Sing and play. Yes.

Judy Collins: Sure, we'll give it a few seconds.

[MUSIC – Judy Collins: Since You Asked]

Kate Hinds: Lovely.

Judy Collins: Debbie, you just got to duet with Judy Collins. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that. That's lovely.

Kate Hinds: That's great, that’s great.

Judy Collins: I would also love to hear another track from Wildflowers. This is one of yours called Sky Fell. What do you want people to listen for?

Kate Hinds: Whether I could get away with singing it.

[laughter]

Judy Collins: Let's give it a try.

[MUSIC – Judy Collins: Sky Fell]

Kate Hinds: I don't know if listeners can hear it but you're also singing along.

Judy Collins: A little harmony doesn't hurt it.

[laughter]

Kate Hinds: We just have a couple of minutes left but I wanted to ask you about some other things in the works. It sounded like you were working on a book of poetry?

Judy Collins: Yes, we're down to the line now and it's coming out in 25, probably a year from now. I haven't really written poetry, I've written a lot of prose, I've written a lot of books, a number of books and when I started to think about the next phase of my songwriting I started writing a lot of poetry. My husband dared me to write 365 poems everyone 1 every day for a year, which I did.

Kate Hinds: You showed him?

Judy Collins: [laughs] Yes, exactly. Out of those 365 poems, most of them came from that journey of writing. The poetry has been to realize it and get into it and then do it every day has been fascinating. I haven't stopped but I haven't done a whole year at a time, recently but it was wonderful. It's coming out, it's called Sometimes It's Heaven.

Kate Hinds: Wow. Well, I look forward to reading it. We have been speaking with Judy Collins. The concert movie Judy Collins: Wildflowers In Concert will be available on the PBS app starting tomorrow. Judy, thank you so much for joining us.

Judy Collins: Thank you, it's been a pleasure.

Kate Hinds: Let's go out on a little bit of music.

[MUSIC – Joni Mitchell: Both Sides, Now]

[00:27:38] [END OF AUDIO]

 

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