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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC Studios in SoHo. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. Coming up on tomorrow's show, if you know musician Jason Mraz for his pop songs or maybe his reggae influence laid-back work, you are in for a surprise. His new album is firmly rooted in disco and it is a bop. He'll join us live in WNYC Studio 5 to discuss and perform a couple of songs from Mystical Magical Rhythmical Radical Ride. That's the name of his new album. That's in this feature, but let's get this hour started with This Book is Gay.

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Alison Stewart: It's the final week of Pride Month. All June long, we've been taking the time to spotlight authors of banned or challenged books that feature LGBTQIA+ characters or themes. According to PEN America, of the books currently being challenged, 26% have LGBTQ+ themes. We've spoken with George M. Johnson, author of the frequently-challenged memoir All Boys Aren't Blue, Alex Gino, author of the novel Melissa, and Mike Curato, author of the graphic novel Flamer. You can listen to those interviews now on demand.

To round things out, we've invited on Juno Dawson, author of This Book is Gay. It was tied for the 10th most challenged book of 2022 according to the American Library Association, even though it came out years ago. Dawson is a former educator in the UK, a novelist, screenwriter, actor, and trans activist. She draws on her time as a teacher and a member of the LGBTQ community to create a kind of guidebook for queer or questioning tweens and teens.

She writes, "There's a long-running joke that on coming out, a young lesbian, gay guy, bisexual, or trans person should receive a membership card and instruction manual. This is that instruction manual. You're welcome." From advice about how to come out unpacking stereotypes and frank education about sex and sexual health, This Book is Gay covers many of the gaps that might be left in a kid's health education class and maybe in their parents' education as well. Dawson is also the author of a brand-new picture book for kids, You Need to Chill!:A Story of Love and Family. She joins us now as part of our banned and challenged book series. Juno, nice to speak with you.

Juno Dawson: Hi, thanks for having me.

Alison Stewart: This really functions as a collection of useful information. There's just so much information in this book. There are discussion points about faith. There's a section on discrimination. There are definitions of word. I was really just struck by all of the information. When you wrote this book, what reader did you have in mind?

Juno Dawson: It was me when I was 15. It was really, really simple. I was asked to write the book. The publisher came to me. Initially, I was very wary. I didn't want to speak on behalf of the whole community because it's such a broad global community that I felt I didn't really have the right. Then I was like, "Just think how easier your adolescence would have been if you had just anything, any sort of a roadmap to guide you through that turbulent period."

I think I would have been about 30 when I wrote this title. It often felt like I'd survived my 20s by the skin of my teeth. I was very vulnerable in lots of ways when I got to college, I hadn't been taught anything at school. My teachers couldn't say anything. My parents didn't say anything. It enabled people, older men in particular, to take advantage of me when I got to college. I just thought, "What if we could avoid that for the next generation? What if it didn't have to be sublimed?"

Alison Stewart: Listeners, we're going to open our phone lines. The numbers are 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. We want to know what piece of media, a book, a TV show, a movie that helps you better understand your own queer identity. We want to hear from you or maybe you want to reflect on what pride means to you and what you've been reflecting on this past Pride Month. Our phone lines are open, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC.

You can also text to us at that number. We'd love to have you join this conversation. My guest is Juno Dawson, author of This Book is Gay and the new picture book You Need to Chill! This is part of our banned and challenged book series. Juno, who was someone who functioned as a guide for you when you were young? Did you have a person or a resource that really helped you navigate your identity?

Juno Dawson: The sad answer is no. I think I was 16 or 17 years old before I really met other queer people. Don't get me wrong, that did change my life. This was when I moved into sixth-form college when I was 16. I kind of switched friendship groups, but it was the '90s and I was desperately searching for scraps. I would look at Jack in Dawson's Creek or Ellen on The Ellen Show.

I swear I would look for these little clues in the media that I was consuming, but it felt I was a bit on my own. I grew up in the United Kingdom. We had laws called Section 28, which meant that teachers, even though I know some of my teachers were gay or lesbian, they weren't allowed to help me or they would lose their jobs. In essence, Section 28 was the original "Don't Say Gay" legislation. Yes, I was left to my own devices.

Alison Stewart: When you were writing this book, how did you come up with the title, This Book is Gay?

Juno Dawson: When I was a teacher in the sort of the late noughties, it was that peak South Park era of kids. Anything that they didn't like, they would say it was gay, so like, "Ugh, this cupcake is gay," "Ugh, those sneakers are gay." I would always challenge them on it as the teacher obviously, but I thought, "Well, what if we reclaim that?" because this book actually is gay and lesbian and bi and trans and queer, but that wouldn't have been nearly as attention-grabbing.

Alison Stewart: Those people can probably hear. You have a great sense of humor. There are graphics in the book that title things like Things That Did Not Make You Gay, and it includes musical theater dolls, pushy mothers, seeing gay characters in books or films, toilet seats, the Illuminati. First of all, how does humor help you in this instance? How is humor helpful in delivering information?

Juno Dawson: I thought that being a young queer person is hard enough without having to write a terribly worthy hand-wringing text. I was, at the time, working with 11 and 12-year-olds. As soon as you could make anything funny and light-hearted, it made it an easier conversation. I think there is a place in the book. We do touch on suicide and self-harm rate for young LGBTQ people. I wanted there to be almost like a gallows humor, I guess, to it as well, which is, "We're all in this together. We're going to get through this. It's going to be fine." I wanted to celebrate queer joy as well. I firmly believe that coming out has been a gateway to great joy and happiness for me. I wanted the book to reflect that.

Alison Stewart: You were a personal, social, health, and citizenship education teacher in the UK. What were you expected to teach your students in class? Was there any gender or sexuality conversation in the syllabus? Were you encouraged or discouraged from that?

Juno Dawson: I got lucky. I started my career as a teacher under the labor government, the previous UK government, and they wanted to try something new. There was a big emphasis on the theory that happy learners make for better learners. There was this renewed emphasis on if children can feel safe and secure in school, then they will do better academically. That was really exciting to be part of.

I was actively encouraged to work on pilot projects to examine new ways of teaching SRE, sex and relationships education. We used to put the young person at the center of it. We understand now that the young people we're teaching have had broadband and smartphones their whole life. In some ways, they're way ahead of us. They have seen things online that we could only dream of.

I always saw my job as both a teacher and then as a writer wasn't to lecture or dictate on sex and relationships, but almost to say, "What have you heard?" I'll tell you if that is accurate, inaccurate, healthy, or unhealthy. We assume that the young person is arriving at high school with half-truths they've picked upon the internet. I think that's really important.

Alison Stewart: Let's take a few calls. Diana is calling in from Manhattan. Hi, Diana. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Diana: Hi, I love your show. I am white. I am in my 60s. I am transgender. I thought the show Pose, Ryan Murphy's Pose, was a terrific show. It helped me a lot because it showed that whatever race you are, whatever socioeconomic level you are, the trans experience has a lot of commonalities for all trans people. In the trans community, sadly, there are a lot of divisions, and that's very sad. There are trans-Latina groups. I'm half-Latina, but I look totally white.

I have faced prejudice in Latin groups because I don't look the way they expect a Latin person to look. I have red hair and green eyes and white skin. It's very important to show that all trans people have many of the same experiences that we don't need to have these divisions according to race or status. I'm middle class. Someone else might be working on the streets and that person will hate me. That is wrong because we all are trans. We should all be in it together because whether we like it or not, we are all in it together.

Alison Stewart: Diana, thank you for calling in. Juno, do you have any thoughts on what Diana was speaking to?

Juno Dawson: Yes, I think I also enjoyed Pose. I think you can really see the point at which the trans writers started writing it. There was a definite switch. I remember the first episode that Janet Mock wrote felt possibly like the first time I'd truly seen myself reflected on television. However, where I would disagree with Diana slightly isn't that I'm a white person. I have no experience of racism. I do think that trans people of color are having an extraordinarily difficult time in America at the moment. They're a very high-risk group.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Kenny from the Bronx. Hi, Kenny. Thank you so much for calling All Of It. You're on the air.

Kenny: I love you. You are awesome. Growing up, we didn't have-- I'm 53, proud gay Puerto Rican and cisgender male, but we didn't have shows. We just had Billy Crystal play Jodie on Soap and the Thirtysomething, but it was very white, very "not my neighborhood." When Noah's Arc came on and even Queer as Folk, sorry for the language, but I'm so pissed that Queer as Folk, the new reboot, got taken off because that was the first time-- They weren't all British.

They weren't all white from Pittsburgh. They were New Orleans. You had everybody. You had the first transgendered mixed family. They took it off. I'm like, "Now, it probably looks like America." It's not there anymore. If I could process, I would. This is the time we need to have positive role models of all shades and all genders.

Alison Stewart: Kenny, thank you so much for calling in. Juno, when you think about the impact of pop culture, what is it, especially for young people? Some people think, "Oh, it's just pop culture," but I'm a believer that it really is important and it's a way that people learn about other people.

Juno Dawson: Of course, I think it can change the world. I've seen this even with This Book is Gay. It first came out in America in 2015. The high-schoolers who were reading it when they were 14 or 15, they're now in their early 20s. They're much more confident in coming up to me and telling me how they use This Book is Gay to come out to their parents, how it helped them to have some really difficult conversations because it's much, much easier to talk about a book than it is to talk about your feelings. I think we would be fools to underestimate that youth culture. If you look at something like Heartstopper, the Alice Oseman graphic novel and the Netflix TV adaptation, that is changing hearts and minds. I really do think when I watch things like Heartstopper, it gives me real hope for the future.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Juno Dawson, author of This Book is Gay and a new picture book, You Need to Chill! It has been part of our series amplifying authors who have found their books to be challenged or banned. You can be part of our conversation. Listeners, we want to know from you, was there a piece of media, a book, or a TV show, movie that helped you better understand your own queer identity, or maybe you're reflecting back on this month?

What has pride meant to you? What have you been reflecting on this Pride Month 2023? Our phone lines are open. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can call in, get on the air, or you can always send us a text to that number as well. We'll have more with Juno Dawson after a quick break. This is All Of It.

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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest this hour is Juno Dawson. Her book is called This Book is Gay. She has a new picture book out called You Need to Chill! This Book is Gay was tied for the 10th most challenged book of 2022. This has been part of our series all month amplifying and giving voice to authors whose books have been challenged and/or banned.

Our phone number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. If you want to share a piece of media, a book, a TV show, or a movie that helps you understand your own queer identity, please join our conversation. Juno, you write at the beginning of the book that you've made some changes from the 2014 edition and listened to feedback from readers about the first edition. What were some of the big changes you made from that first edition to this updated one?

Juno Dawson: I was writing the book in 2012 for one thing. It's just as time passes, the culture moves on in that I've had younger readers writing to me to say, "Could there be more on asexuality?" I think the original version didn't really have anything about being non-binary, for example, because those conversations were nascent back then. There was some stuff around global politics as well. I think when we first wrote the book, it was legal to be gay in India, then it was illegal and then it became legal again. We had to change that.

I guess the biggest change was my personal change, which was, it was during the first version of This Book is Gay that I realized I had much more in common with trans people than I did with my gay male friends. I started my transition that same year. I wanted the later version to reflect that, that I've been a part of the gay scene for all of my 20s. I think I share my trans journey with a lot of my readers. We fell on an equal footing. I wanted to say, "We're all going through this together." I'm happier with the second version. I think it's more inclusive.

Alison Stewart: Were you able to take any of your own advice when it came to embracing your true self?

Juno Dawson: I wish. If only we could take our own advice. There is a follow-up to This Book is Gay called What's the T? which is specifically about trans and non-binary issues because it does feel in both the UK and the US at the moment, trans lives are in crisis, especially trans youth. By the time I came to write What's the T? I think I was able to use some of my own experience hopefully to be a big-sister figure, I guess, to trans and non-binary young people.

Alison Stewart: Throughout the book, we see quotes from LGBTQIA people who you were interviewed for the book. As I said, there's just a ton of information in this book. Was it 300 people who were surveyed?

Juno Dawson: Oh, initially, there was a lot more. Then I picked out people who I thought might have a story to tell.

Alison Stewart: What was something that came out of your surveys or interviews that surprised you?

Juno Dawson: I was struck by how confident young queer people have become compared to how I grew up in secrecy and shame. I very much grew up under the shadow of the HIV and AIDS crisis. As a child, I really believe that being queer was something scary. What I love the most is how younger queer people have just got this amazing lexicon and vocabulary to describe the very specific ways they identify with phrases like "pansexual," "demisexual," and "sapiosexual." So many different words and they understand identity and all its complexities in a way that perhaps I didn't when I was their age. I'm very in awe of them.

Alison Stewart: In the sex education portions, Juno, you write, "I'd like to remind you that we taught you all about straight sex when you were 11 years old during sixth grade. This chapter is simply all the stuff teachers should be saying if they want to be inclusive of people with same-sex feelings." Why did you feel it was important to include this section that gives very frank and an informative rundown of what queer sex can look like?

Juno Dawson: I knew from my time as a teacher that sex education is very hit-and-miss for all young people, including cis and straight kids. I was like, "Well, if we're going to do it, let's do it," because, otherwise, they're going to go on the internet. Pornography is many things, but it's not sex education. It feels to me, pornography is constantly what we're up against as educators. I felt it was important to go there. Every year when I used to do sex ed with my 11 and 12-year-old, year six, young people, the question that came up more than any other question year on year on year was, "Why do people have sex if they're not trying to have a baby?"

That's because we never explained to young people that sex should be a source of pleasure and joy. I think that's really, really sad. It was really important to me to convey that whatever kind of body you have, however you identify, which is that sex should always be consensual, it should be for adults, and it should be pleasurable. That's something that I wanted to get across.

Alison Stewart: Let's take a call. Jeremy is calling from Fort Lee, New Jersey. Hi, Jeremy. Thank you for calling All Of It.

Jeremy: Hi, thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here today. I'm really so grateful that the discussion is going on. I can't wait to hear everyone else's replies. There were a couple of things in my youth. I'm 37 now, so that really came about. First, it was periodicals like Advocate and Out magazine and seeing folks on the cover, especially celebrities like Ellen. When she came out, it was a truly big deal. I remember K.D. Lang coming out and Melissa Etheridge. Those were massive.

One of my favorite books for the summer was A Density of Souls by Christopher Rice, which was the first book that I felt that I could be in that book. I was in that novel. It hit me so hard. I had to put it down like, "Oh, my gosh, this is too intense." I love the conversations of Queer as Folk and Will & Grace and then Pedro and MTV's The Real World. Just seeing representation that we had. It's so beautiful to see now that there's greater representation having in media and in books. We're able to talk about it so freely. Thank you so much for having this conversation with us.

Alison Stewart: Jeremy, thank you so much for joining us. Someone texted to us, "Dancing to Bronski Beat hit Smalltown Boy at 19 years old in the summer of 1984." Important moment to that person. Juno, you provide a really great guide for kids who were deciding to come out to their family and has some responses that they might say, some language that they can use. For example, if a kid says, "I'm queer. I'm gay." If a family member says, "Are you sure?" one suggestion you make is saying, "I really am. I felt this way for a very long time. It's just that now, I'm comfortable talking about it with you." Have you heard from kids who've used your guide?

Juno Dawson: Yes. I don't like to name-drop. Actually, I do.

Alison Stewart: [laughs]

Juno Dawson: Lovely Joe Locke. Who doesn't? Joe Locke, who plays Charlie in Heartstopper and he's about to be in Coven of Chaos in the MCU. He came up to me in an award ceremony last year and he was like, "My mom gave me This Book is Gay when I was 13 or 14 years old and you really changed my life." How wonderful is that? Because what I wanted this book to do was to make sure that queer youth became queer adults. I wanted young people to survive because not all queer youth make it through that really turbulent period.

Next year, it's 10 years since the book came out in the UK. I can see that. When your book goes out into the world, you hope it's going to find an audience, but there's never any guarantees. I would just love to give a little shout-out to the really heroic librarians and educators in the United States who are resisting this insidious and vexatious book-banning in order to make sure that queer people get these books that they so dearly need. 10 years on, I feel really pleased to be able to say, "I think my book did find its audience and I think it has helped."

Alison Stewart: Let's talk about the book-banning and the book-challenging. When was the first time you were aware that your book, This Book is Gay, was in the crosshairs of people who challenge and ban books?

Juno Dawson: Well, I think it was around 2016, so not very long after the book had come out. It received its first challenge in Wasilla, Alaska, almost Sarah Palin. I was like, "Oh." A lot of people were like, "Oh, this is really exciting. You've made it. Your book is being challenged." I didn't feel giddy or excited. I just felt sad. I felt sad that in 2016, being gay was still something that was considered controversial. In some ways, it felt like we'd come so far but hadn't gone anywhere at all. It was quite quiet.

Things have really stepped up a notch since 2020, I think, when Trump lost. I think right-wing Republicans have regrouped. Rather than trying to affect change in central government, I think they're making a nuisance of themselves at very local levels. They're like door-stopping libraries and schools and screaming at librarians. I think it's a very organized political movement as well where politicians are using these hot-button topics to drum up votes, and also distract from the fact they're not really achieving anything else.

Alison Stewart: Yes, I think if you find yourself screaming at a librarian, you might want to examine your life choices. [chuckles]

Juno Dawson: Just go for a walk. Go touch grass. Walk children in nature. Just let your librarian do her job.

Alison Stewart: Have you faced challenges in the UK? I should ask that first.

Juno Dawson: The situation in the UK is very different and I've been thinking about this. I've just got back from the American Library Association Conference where I was delivering a speech about banned books. While on one hand, it feels like the situation is much, much worse in America, and, obviously, This Book is Gay is currently in 10th place of the most banned and challenged books, the difference is in that in the UK, we have no way of knowing how often my book is being removed from libraries because we don't really have a way of recording it. While on one hand, I'm not hearing about a lot of book-banning and it feels like there isn't a massive appetite for it, actually, I imagine there probably are quite a lot of librarians and teachers having to defend my book and books like it. It's just that we don't record it in this country. I have no way of knowing.

Alison Stewart: Juno, before we let you go, I want to let people know. You have a new picture book out called You Need to Chill!: A Story of Love and Family. I love that it's in rhyme. How many things can you rhyme with "chill"? A lot apparently.

Juno Dawson: A lot apparently.

Alison Stewart: [laughs] It introduces kids to the concept of kids being trans or a family member transitioning. How did you decide you wanted to approach this topic for really little kids?

Juno Dawson: This was the second instance of a publisher coming to me. I'm not going to name names, but there was an editor whose family was going through a situation like the one in the book where the older teenage sibling has begun to socially transition. Her parent had said, "Wouldn't it be cool if there was a book to explain this to her younger siblings?" Initially, I was like, "I'm not sure. Picture books around trans lives tend to be a bit oatmealy, a bit worthy."

I went back to them and said, "I'll do it if it can be funny, if it can be stupid, and if it can be a riot." I wanted it to feel like a pride parade in some ways because, actually, the likelihood of you yourself being trans is teeny-tiny. We're statistically such a small minority group, but we're in your community. I wanted this picture book to be a message to our allies and to, potentially, our critics and to all those people with nosy questions about trans people. I just wanted to let some air off the tires and say, "Look, you need to chill."

Alison Stewart: Juno Dawson is the author of the new picture book, You Need to Chill!, and the book, This Book is Gay. Juno, thank you so much for joining us and for your work.

Juno Dawson: Oh no, thank you for having me.

 

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