Man, Magic and Medicine (Linsly R. Williams Memorial Lecture)
In this lecture, Dr. Paul Fejos of the Wenner-Gren Foundation for Anthropological Research discusses the differences between the practice of medicine in the western world and the practice of medicine within different cultures around the world.
WNYC archives id: 67687
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>> Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. In cooperation with the New York Academy of Medicine, your city station brings you the first of the 1955-56 series of lectures to the laity. The lectures, now in their 21st season, are presented by the Academy free of charge at the Academy's auditorium from which we are now broadcasting. The talks are intended to acquaint the laymen with significant developments in medicine and to offer insight into the various processes by which the developments are achieved. The lecturers are the scientists whose labor in the field sum up this progress in medicine. The season's theme is "Medicine and Anthropology". Our speaker tonight is Dr. Paul Fejos of the Wintergrin Foundation for Anthropological Research, and his subject "Man, Magic, and Medicine". And now to introduce the evening's program, here is the president of the New York Academy of Medicine, Dr. Edward J. Donovan. Dr. Donovan.
>> Dr. Edward J. Donovan: Ladies and gentlemen, it is with a feeling of great satisfaction and pride that the Academy of Medicine opens its 21st annual series of lectures to the laity this evening. In the past twenty years, we have had the privilege of hearing more than 125 of the most distinguished scientists in this country and abroad, develop the theme embraced in these lectures which may properly be designated as wisdom of the body. It is not a study of disease and its treatment as such, but goes far beyond this point to the study of man, his relationship with himself, his fellow men, and his surroundings. It is quite proper, then, that the 21st series of lectures should have as its theme Medicine and Anthropology, or the anthropological reorientation of medicine. The Academy of Medicine would be quite remiss in its duties were we not to express our gratitude to the members of the committee on medical information who have labored so diligently to arrange these lectures and with no little effort secure the most distinguished group of lecturers. We are also most grateful to the Wintergrin Foundation for Anthropological Research whose financial support has made these lectures possible. I would like to take this opportunity to express our gratitude and the Academy's appreciation to Dr. Harold B. Keyes, who has for many years been chairman of the sub-committee on the laity lectures. It is now my pleasure to turn this meeting over to Dr. Harold Keyes. Dr. Keyes.
>> Dr. Harold Keyes: Ladies and gentlemen, to conserve time for the speaker, I will be very brief. I wish to call your attention to the fact that this is called the Linsly R. Williams Memorial Lecture. We doctors like to pay credit and applaud our predecessors, and we take great pleasure in doing this for Dr. Williams. He was the first director of the New York, the first appointed director of the New York Academy of Medicine in 1924, and he was largely responsible for our obtaining the site of this wonderful building that we're in. It is now my duty and privilege to introduce the chairman of the evening, Dr. Frank G. Boudreau. Dr. Boudreau is the executive director of the Middle Bank Memorial Foundation, a post he has held since 1937. Dr. Boudreau is a fellow of the New York Academy of Medicine and a great friend of our committee. Dr. Boudreau is also a distinguished international authority on medicine. It gives me pleasure to introduce Dr. Boudreau.
>> Dr. Frank G. Boudreau: Dr. [inaudible], ladies and gentlemen, according to my ancient dictionary, anthropology is the science of man in general, and I find, again, according to the dictionary, that it is divided into some 22 branches, of which the following appear to be the most exotic. [inaudible] It would be interesting for me to discuss with you the interpretation of these terms, but the New York Academy of Medicine, the president, and Dr. Keyes warned me that I must restrict myself to the task of introducing the speaker, which I do with the utmost good will. Our speaker is a modern example of the naturalist's position of the last century. Familiar with several branches of science as well as of medicine, looked up to as the representative of science in their midst by the whole community. A graduate in medicine of the Royal Hungarian University, he has been since graduation a research technician of the Rockefeller Institute in our city, a field collector for the National Museum in Copenhagen, a member of the faculties of Stanford and Yale of the universities, and a teacher at Army and Naval Medical Academies during the War. I imagine, though, that the most exciting years in his career, so far, were spent in the ethnographic expeditions where he directed the Danish ethnographic expedition to Madagascar and [inaudible] Archipelago in 1934-36 and the Wintergrin scientific expedition to Latin America in 1939 and '41, and he was a participant in the Swedish ethnographic expedition to the East Indies in the Far East in 1936-38. He is now president and director of research in the Wintergrin Foundation and, of course, a distinguished fellow of the New York Academy of Medicine. He also has been president of the New York Academy of Sciences. I present to you our speaker, a distinguished anthropologist and a good friend, Dr. Paul Fejos.
[ Applause ]
>> Dr. Paul Fejos: Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen. As the title of the present series of the laity lectures is Medicine and Anthropology, I hope you will allow me to try to define to some extent [inaudible] anthropology. It may seem [inaudible] as most of you here are quite sure [inaudible] this meaning, but as a [inaudible] physician, anthropologist, I have met [inaudible] beliefs, and I would like to put them out. In the lesson from [inaudible], anthropologist unknown, there's a clear group of individuals who for some esoteric reason left to founded [inaudible] and greatly enjoyed the company of [inaudible]. But there's also some [inaudible] group nor the supreme and those archeologists. They are [inaudible] no profitable occupation as the [inaudible] search of lost Inca and Maya treasures [inaudible]. In truth, we know very little of this. Let me assure you that no archeologist is happy when his misfortune brings him into contact with buried [inaudible] jewels. He is [inaudible] much more happy and more enthusiastic [inaudible]. Equally well, the acknowledgist [phonetic] is less interested in [inaudible] and finds great joy in the recording let's say [inaudible] of children [inaudible]. In short, we in anthropology believe that romantic adventures on a field trip are to be avoided. They are usually result of bad planning rather than personal [inaudible]. What we do or intend to do is signified by the [inaudible]. Literally translated from the Greek means the science of man. Now in our English-speaking countries, this term is taken to mean the science of man and his works. In Europe, the term has been given the sum of a different meaning. They have been [inaudible] to the study of man's physical characteristics. Anthropology differs from sciences like zoology, botany, physiology, and genetics in one very important respect. This analysis, concentrated on [inaudible] a certain limit of sorts [inaudible] appear in nature. Anthropology has concentrated with interest upon a single organism - man. In trying to understand all sorts of phenomena as they affect him. It has attempted to find that all that there is to be known by this curious biped man and his still more curious behavior. [Inaudible] divisions of all the supreme will be classified [inaudible] into physical anthropology, the study of man's physical characteristics, and pleasure and technology, which is comprised of homistics [phonetic], archeology, and technology. Archeology deals with the beginnings of culture and with those cultures and phases of culture which are now extinct. Ethnology deals with the ways of life or societies which are still extinct or extinct so late that still enough written work is available. [Inaudible] culture. Let me define what I mean by it. I used culture in its anthropological meaning. For us anthropologists, culture is an offering [inaudible], and it does not mean what the [inaudible] means, a learning sophistication. That is to say that the person can play the piano or can read through poems of Browning and [inaudible]. Culture for anthropologists denotes the sum total of the socially inherent of characteristics of the human growth. Thus, culture comprise everything that one generation can tell [inaudible] teach to the next. In other words, all the [inaudible] physical inherited traits that we possess. We believe that man is distinguished from all the animals by the possession of culture. It is because he can speak, and, thereby, he can frame ideas for himself and others of his kind and [inaudible] symbols that he has culture, that he's human. Culture is [inaudible]. We are constantly influenced by it. It governs our tastes, our system of values. It is not easy to shed. It even influences in some cases our physiology, our health. Sometimes even registers with us a certain type of diseases. Our culture in western society is incredibly complex. Compared to the non-literate, to the primitive cultures, our socially [inaudible] single body of knowledge, particularly in the field of [inaudible] science, is taken into an image emission. It also shows by contrast the kind of culture men left for maybe a million years. Some people call that period man's animal-like existence. I believe this to be a misnomer because all our ancestors in [inaudible] period had brains as good as our own, but this [inaudible] sharply from animals by the possession of culture. Thereby, they have known [inaudible] of the precariousness of life, and of the inescapable fact of that. They knew the first instant that all living organisms are sentenced to death when they are born. This must have made the existence of early man, indeed, a bitterly harsh one. An existence constantly challenged with the fear of disease and that. Thus, primitive means is the earliest of history. Many of us face to face with bodily pain, mental anguish, in danger of losing his life, must have sought salvation from somewhere outside of himself. This brings us to another word that I would like to define in some anthropology [inaudible], and the word is magic. Contrary to general use, the word magic does not denote trickery, [inaudible], or pulling out a white rabbit from a high hat. Webster's Dictionary defines magic as I quote the art or body of arts which claims or is believed to be able to [inaudible] or a supernatural power to do or refrain from doing some act or to change temporarily the order of natural events or which claims or is believed to produce effects by the assistance of supernatural beings such as angels, [inaudible] and so on. Magic is not clearly definatiated from science by primitive peoples. It was a part of most primitive religions. With the rise of Christianity to [inaudible] many magical practices were banned. The Church could then resort to spirts and to demons for knowledge or assistance. Not as a [inaudible], but as an evil or a black magic. Magic which seems to produce that or [inaudible] called black magic. On the right, the magical magic, no ban was placed by the Church, and largely from this from which [inaudible] is surviving [inaudible] modern science developed, unquote. Now what is magic? Magic means all the formulas for doing things which are beyond one's personal powers. It is not, however, a complicated proposition such as nuclear chemistry. It makes use of fairly simple things. Medicines, which are the correct things to use, and spells, which are the correct things to say. Magic is borderline. It's the property of all the [inaudible]. It is a fallacy to believe that magic exists only for the primitive. We owe ourselves and all our ancestors possessing equally valid. I hope to illustrate and prove to this [inaudible] a little bit later. In western society, magic is disreputable to those who are able to recognize it, but it has no better reputation than in the primitive peoples. It is not a superstition or a stupid belief for them, but [inaudible] simply the right way of doing something. It is no easy matter for a primitive to define magic at all or to see as something by itself. For us westerners, we are able to do so because we have developed the concept of science, which is an absolute insistence on knowing the physical reasons for anything or seeing the actual connection [inaudible]. There is now a similar [inaudible] in magic and science in that the people use them, both science and magic with [inaudible], but the doctrines of magic are different. It does not make the same distinctions. Science accepts no compromises and no contradictions. Science wants to know whether things will work and why. And knowing why it will go on [inaudible]. Now magic also wants to know that there are things that will work. And it's very much interested in the why, but is willing to make an assumption, assumption as to why, and does not insist on [inaudible]. It is [inaudible] because it's remaining invisible. So [inaudible]. In magic, [inaudible] conflict effects are not filled out but are waiting in they seem serious. A further explanation may be simply [inaudible]. But magic is the only way to [inaudible]. The overall fear of black magic is maybe responsible for this. Black magic is the evil magic. This is the one which is used to kill, to maim, to [inaudible]. White magic, on the other hand, always combats black magic with [inaudible], defense against it, neutralize it. Amongst primitive people, much more white magic is being performed than black. Black magic already is universally feared not only in primitive societies but equally well in [inaudible] in the western societies. Promoting [inaudible] all such practices which we call superstitions are in reality magic or at least have magical origins. Magical practices are [inaudible] classified was before the empires. [Inaudible] simple black magic. This is based upon the principle that like efforts [inaudible] or that the desired result may be brought about just by [inaudible], meaning to do spells. And [inaudible] to believe that this once [inaudible]. I better give you an example [inaudible] magic today. I have the good luck of knowing a Hollywood producer who once made [inaudible] picture. You will forgive me if I do not blurt the name of the picture [inaudible]. Now at the time that he made this picture, the picture was a great success at the box office. [Inaudible] money. So my friend immediately decided to look up what [inaudible]. And he read very carefully the number of pages of the script and found that the script was [inaudible] 259 pages and 514 scenes. This was important to know happened easily 25 years ago. This [inaudible] are still was not accept the script, which is not 259 pages and not 514 scenes. And the scenery departments, they know about this at that studio [inaudible] and said practically to be able to stretch or condense pages and spacing in order to [inaudible]. Another matter is divination. The various means of the hidden knowledge [inaudible] clairvoyance, [inaudible] omens, astrology. This again goes on just to spoil the [inaudible] you must have seen in salons or [inaudible]. Next in the [inaudible] or wonder working. This includes all things [inaudible] and so on, and then, finally, the next practice is incantation. The recital of the magical, recital of the magical formula for promotion and [inaudible] of magical powers, or the performance of the magical ritual procedure. Magic is honest. What is to say those who practice it believe it. It is fully and unquestionably valued for them. Let me qualify this so that at least subconsciously about it. Here is a belief, the basic difficulty for the average westerner to view magic in its proper sense. It was for a westerner, let's say, [inaudible] superstition, but to see a vaudeville act of sawing a woman in two is magic. The opposite is [inaudible]. For sawing a woman in two, a magician knowingly and with intent practices a deception. He tricks his audience. The intentions of the primitive magic, on the other hand, are never deception or trickery, but rather it's based upon fully honest or most dogmatic belief and faith. Perfectly white magic is to ensure us against black magic. The origins of many of these practices go back into the early history of man but by far, not all of them. Particularly white magic is very frequent upon even modern societies such as, for instance, the method of [inaudible]. You all know this [inaudible] magic illogical reason, that is to say, life in one [inaudible] did not get enough time to [inaudible] but three of them certainly did. Possibly in all group behavior pattern has its origin in the field of black magic. Black magic is [inaudible] and the only the practice extra [inaudible]. I believe you are acquainted with the clan denoting a small group of people [inaudible]. That is to say no magician, no shaman can produce in a primitive society black magic against his own family. So the members of his own clan. Sorcerists can practice black magic only outward from their clan. Therefore, in primitive societies, a clan must destroy all the new comets because any new comet is a potential bringer of evil problem, evil magic. What of this behavior toward the [inaudible] society is a remnant, a vestige of this type of philosophy. The power of this didn't exist for use since I would like to vaguely mention that we will go onto Chicago, and you would to take the 20th century, and you would go onto [inaudible]. And if you would watch what happened in there, you would see that one would arise and takes a seat. It would play soon and [inaudible] like this having the same color. Very likely the same religion, same everything, and now he will sit down [inaudible] opposite. This train then as soon as the train started off from Grand Central [inaudible], and first they will find, though, that they're all [inaudible]. They're all Episcopalian. They're all hundred percent American, and that said, they all have the same profession. They're all traveling salesmen selling I suppose ladies' underwear. This train now, when the train gets to Harmond will very likely decide to have a friendly poker game or pinochle or something, and they will be busily playing, and will be very good fellows, a model of fellowship when the train [inaudible]. Now let us suppose [inaudible] the door opens, and in walks a fourth person. Just exactly like they are, looking like they, colored the same, religion is the same. Let us suppose that he's also a traveling salesman and also in ladies' underwear. Will it help? No. When you arrive [inaudible] someone says is this seat taken. You can [inaudible] he will have [inaudible] and frequently not accept him, so to speak. He will now need to prove his metal, and very likely they will need to [inaudible] because somebody will even, in the mind [inaudible]. This is an [inaudible]. Now how is black magic practiced? [Inaudible] this even western societies, but basically the input seems to be doing things the wrong way. That is to say backward. In their own world, the bad way, at the wrong time, and always a bad malicious intent or an evil purpose. For example, in medieval Europe, you remember the Black Mass. It was a mass said backward. It was said at night [inaudible]. The whole [inaudible] was black, not white. It was not round but angularly with points all over it. It was not wine but water that the French used for the [inaudible]. And the water that was used [inaudible] from a well into which a newborn infant was unbaptized by [inaudible] to drown. [Inaudible] In most primitive societies, anything connected with the person against whom black magic is practiced and [inaudible]. This is the so-called image magic. Many companies of demon, hair, spittle, [inaudible] of a person [inaudible]. But even in the belongings of the victim, such as wearing apparel, bedding, tombs, wrappings, etc. can be used. One method of using them would be [inaudible] let's say to obtain the spittle of, saliva from [inaudible] against who we want to practice the black magic, and mix the [inaudible] tiny figurine. It's supposed to resemble the victim. If now sorcerer has access to the hair of the victim, then [inaudible]. If nail [inaudible] are available [inaudible] and so on. Once the figure is finished, then either pins or tongs are stuck into it periodically. This [inaudible], of course, should be accompanied by incantations of a definite traditional form. The incantations are usually part mumbo jumbo, but they will usually contain words denoting the intent of the sorcerer. If the pins and the tongs are stuck into the body of the figurine, the victim will sicken. Sometimes when the victim is aware that sorcery is being practiced on him, the corresponding thoughts of the body will be paralyzed and sickened. Then everything will be [inaudible], and then after several days [inaudible] the sorcerer finally pierces the heart of the figurine, then the victim should die. This is what anthropologists are [inaudible] so aptly named murdered by metaphysics. Good title for a [inaudible] story. You will notice that I said when the victim's aware of the, that black magic is being practiced against him. It is rarely a case in primitive society that the victim does not know that the [inaudible]. People love to talk and gossip in primitive societies just as much as in our 20th century western society. It's also [inaudible], and in most instances, he himself will unknowns that he's making evil magic against somebody. This may surprise you, but the reason why the sorcerer does this is really a public relation gesture. You see, social status will arise in this, but it is known that [inaudible] knowledge doing the work against someone. Now there are records, for instance, in [inaudible] of number of instances where sorcerers actually confessed in court to killing victims simply to their reputations. They never even knew of the existence of the [inaudible]. Now the sorcerer in most cases here doesn't risk anything or very little. It usually [inaudible] is that in primitive societies, as a rule, to kill the sorcerer would be no aware. One cannot kill magic. [Inaudible] mana will proceed swiftly out of the body of the dead sorcerer and will enter into another [inaudible] and the danger of evil magic will be still [inaudible]. One can combat, one can counter, one can neutralize magic. One cannot kill it. Now let's take this new word I have mentioned, the mana, M-A-N-A. It's a Polynesian word, and it denotes a hurried transference of black magic. It means a kind of a force, the power, and can be present in anything or in anybody, and by its very presence can involve that person or that thing with super normal qualities. Mana is not, however, a spirit. It has no will or purpose of its own. Mana can be supplied by various sources. It may come from the yards of spirits. It may have just naturally, it may be [inaudible]. It may be transmitted by a laying the hand of a person [inaudible] onto the body of anothers, but it can always be [inaudible] into somebody. Now how is mana born? Let us suppose that the [inaudible] you'll find a stone or a shell which is either peculiar in shape, it has an unusual color, it's [inaudible] circumstances. [Inaudible] of this object with the [inaudible] idea that it really has mana. Takes it home, and lots of [inaudible] buried in his [inaudible]. It's now in the garden that give him an exceptional [inaudible] an exceptional harvest, then he will decide that the stone has mana, and from now on, the stone has mana. Let us suppose that he would be not bury in the garden but would put it in his hearth and would put his [inaudible]. Now [inaudible] becomes excellent. So honoring the finest remark of what [inaudible]. Then his stone had mana which transmitted to [inaudible]. Now it is not the workmanship of the [inaudible] but the straightness of the spirit that counts in this instance. If now a native [inaudible] consistently superior spirits which seem to find that a way to targeted them on failing accuracy, then it is the maker of the [inaudible] who has the man. However, there is no difference in mana which is in the [inaudible] or in the maker of it or in the owner of this [inaudible]. All of them are [inaudible]. None of it simply involve each of them with a magical excellence. But the real [inaudible] mana is the Pacific Ocean. It is formed the white spread all over the world. We in western society again have a good dose of it, but much as with magic are here to acknowledge it by its name. Instead, we might call it keepsake, memento, or simply our [inaudible]. One very good example here, I'm supposed to show you modern instances. Mana would be that when I arrived to the United States, and traveled here for [inaudible], I met a number of [inaudible] a dime. A brand new silver dime which was usually framed or in some instances it was in a jewel case. Never shown this dime. Very proudly by owners but this is the dime that Mr. Rockefeller gave to my mother. It seems that old John Davison Rockefeller start at his [inaudible] children they have, and [inaudible] he fished out three dimes and gave it to the policeman. All these dimes are today in precious existence. They did not go back to traffic. People didn't spend them, but they kept it. [Inaudible] This uncanny [inaudible] of John D. Rockefeller touched it. I better keep it. I better hand it over to my son. So you see before [inaudible] magic is still present even in our society. The processional of man, however, has discipline [inaudible]. Hence, having a close kinship with the gods are usually involved with much powerful mana. This can cost a bit of involuntary [inaudible] to other people because chiefs, kings, and priests might have such powerful mana as to involve everything with [inaudible] magic but [inaudible]. It is easy to see that what would happen [inaudible] that's the Polynesian island on the Pacific when few generations of kings have [inaudible]. Man touched by defeat of the [inaudible] becomes dangerously potent now by the touch. [Inaudible] island in no kind of spirit because it becomes untouchable for any ordinary mortal and cannot make [inaudible]. The carrying of kings and chiefs on ceremonial chairs and settees may have its origins in this as a protective measure. In Polynesian philosophy, mana must exist in a proper balance. This balance is a very [inaudible] in his book Polynesian relations says I quote that any disturbance of this equilibrium in an individual, I thereby surcharge the mana or by [inaudible] of his natural environment of mana affects him disastrously. To denote such upset in the equilibrium of mana is the Polynesian word taboo[phonetic]. Taboo is something to be avoided because of an inescapable unlimited danger for the transgressor. As if [inaudible] culture, the anthropologist meaning of taboo is somebody [inaudible]. In common parlance, it is taboo, let's say, to eat backed beans with your hand or the steak dinner scratch your [inaudible] fork. Or to be guilty of [inaudible]. I even have heard them say [inaudible] that is taboo to park on the western side of Fifth Avenue. This are improper or [inaudible], but they are not taboo. The supernatural is missing. While one can park on the Avenue and get away with it because the police may not come, and you won't get a ticket. Breaking a taboo, however, real. Even a [inaudible] bring horrible, supernatural punishment on the head of the transgressor, and in some instances, on his family. [Inaudible] even his entire community. Such punishment in escapable and inevitable. It may be important [inaudible], failure of [inaudible], disappearance of game that the transgression of taboo makes a person [inaudible], ritually bad, exposed to every kind of worldly or supernatural evil. Any and all transgressions of taboo are punished. One will bear the consequences if one breaks a taboo voluntarily or involuntarily. There is no recognition of a mistake, accident, or lack of knowledge. A transgressor becomes a terrible danger to his community because he's a supreme carrier of potential catastrophes. He's a relative of deadly typhoid [inaudible] in the society. All this now should not give you, however, the idea [inaudible] of a very dire existence of what natives must have when they go [inaudible]. It's taboo. Another it should really please us an excellent system of road signs. It showed the correct path and direction through all life cycles. [Inaudible] fuel imitations of one's diet. [Inaudible] In short [inaudible] to look forward with confidence to his future. It enables one to be in tune with the universe and be tranquil in facing life. It supplies a system of values to live by. Now that the definitions of culture, magic [inaudible], let us return to man, magic, and medicine. To man, be he [inaudible] primitive, disease is a tarrying anomaly. It is [inaudible] to the ultimate of all resistors that to be able to return to normal state, we usually need help. Help from someone who knows what is our ailment and how to combat it, but someone is [inaudible]. In our western society, he's called the physician, the doctor, the MD or [inaudible] with affection [inaudible] of US slang doc, which to me always sounds like the name of a [inaudible] rather than a professional name. Healer in primitive society also has many names. We in the western culture call them witch doctors, medicine men, sorcerers, magicians, [inaudible] doctors. The anthropologists prefers a collective term - shaman. Shaman is a Siberian word meaning the one who is involved with supernatural [inaudible] and abilities. Sometimes he's also possessed by spirits. [Inaudible] physician and the shaman are learned men. Both of them are subjected to rigid discipline and [inaudible] education for long years. Both are under [inaudible] of professional ethics. Both are usually respected members and leaders of their communities. In many primitive societies, the shaman is also the priest. It is logical that he should be that, and because of the primitive native concept of [inaudible]. The rational, scientific concept of disease [inaudible] recent development in man's history. In the [inaudible] large areas of our world, even today, there is no such concept as disease in [inaudible] sense of the word. Consequently, there is no such thing as natural. Disease caused death. But the primitive natural death is the one which is caused by [inaudible], accident, warfare. Sort of struck by lighting [inaudible]. All over which are due to supernatural causes. Magic. This, ladies and gentlemen, if I may remind you, is valid today in about two-third of the world's area. So most of the world today has no concept of disease. No matter how inconsequent, unreasonable, or childish it may sound to you, it is for them the primitives [inaudible]. It is not unreasonable to them because their reasoning is different. There is no difference between [inaudible] scientific position [inaudible] as far as [inaudible]. They both [inaudible] and to find the cause at the onset of the disease. They both take history [inaudible], and please let me for those of you ever complain that how much of your time doctors wasting in [inaudible]. But the shaman taking history is usually longer than his scientific [inaudible]. Hours, days, sometimes weeks [inaudible]. They then [inaudible] examinations of the patient's body. Then they both [inaudible] diagnose and prescribe therapy . Frequently, [inaudible] prognosis [inaudible]. In this [inaudible] world, you've answered the diagnosis and specialist help is available, then they called for [inaudible]. Much the same as their colleagues do in London or New York or [inaudible]. There is, however, [inaudible] fundamental difference between them in the concept of disease. As I told you, the native shaman is no trickster. He's just as honest and shrewd in his knowledge of the cause of the disease as his scientific colleague, but where the problems of the physician is [inaudible] physiology and pathology, the shaman's problems is magic, the supernatural. Now from this, it's easy to see that [inaudible] physician has his [inaudible] and his method medical. His primitive [inaudible] has his [inaudible] magical. But the physician want cures, wants patient to be understanding, recognition and functioning of the human body [inaudible]. But the shaman, [inaudible] his therapy through the understanding of any imaginary world. [Inaudible] but invisible and behind [inaudible]. Now the understanding of the supernatural world is the shaman's [inaudible] scientific [inaudible] knowledge. It was delegated to by his teachers much in the same way as all were managed was instilled into us by our [inaudible]. Furthermore, the truth of the magic was proven to him countless times during [inaudible]. But they had seen themselves but the patients of the [inaudible] were cured by them. Made [inaudible]. That is to say they being an expert in [inaudible] works. Not the reasoning that the patients are cured if they [inaudible]. No one will [inaudible] like to object to the assertion that they were cured by supernatural means by the shaman. Now how does a shaman cure an ailment? [Inaudible] would be impossible to [inaudible]. One, disease by intrusion of foreign objects. Under this category for all the belief that foreign object of [inaudible] power has entered the body of a patient, causing his illness. Such objects then be magical small pebbles, small stones, pearls, [inaudible] but even in some cultures small living [inaudible] of the removal of such objects. This can be accomplished by the shaman by a sucking his object out [inaudible] or squeezing the [inaudible] or forcing the [inaudible]. And all this has [inaudible] enticing the object out by a [inaudible], stroking, tickling the object out and [inaudible]. The other [inaudible], again, intrusion of spirits in [inaudible]. The patient's body has been entered into by an evil spirit, a demon. This demon then waste away the body of the patient as they eat up all the nourishment [inaudible] takes in. The spirit of the mana, however, sometimes do not [inaudible] and will not [inaudible] at all. In this case, they are not [inaudible] as they do not eat [inaudible] in the patient. [Inaudible] This then accomplish [inaudible]. Incantations, [inaudible] and not to [inaudible]. This is [inaudible] does not respond, but [inaudible] for it. This can become [inaudible]. Some spirits will need to be starved by it by various [inaudible]. You know, sometimes we talk [inaudible]. The spirit can equally [inaudible] sometimes [inaudible]. In some cultures, demons can be extracted by surgery such [inaudible]. Now number three is the incidence of [inaudible] or strained soul. [Inaudible] by the absence of the soul. We could view this as a sort of [inaudible] proposition when the soul release the body [inaudible]. The therapy here is to [inaudible] the soul by ceremonial needs and by [inaudible]. The ceremonial means are usually incantations and also [inaudible]. This letter is [inaudible] deductive reasoning, taking days and maybe weeks. The shaman [inaudible] hygiene measures that also [inaudible] here to make the body more desirable and more comfort for the home for the strained soul. [Inaudible] by the sorcerers [inaudible]. Then the power of the sorcerer needs to be whole [inaudible]. This, again, is the [inaudible] sometimes involved in public duals between the shaman and the sorcerer. I had the good luck of witnessing one dual of this sort of by the [inaudible] who more or less did something at four days [inaudible]. [Inaudible] imagine or [inaudible]. Now the immediate causes for the onset of this magical [inaudible] tend to be [inaudible] black magic with malicious intent the magical arrow for dropped into the [inaudible] or magic stone was [inaudible], but it all can be imagination which I mentioned before. Another immediate cause for the onset the sleep and dream. Sleeping and dreaming are dangerous things. One is not in possess of all one's faculties, but this is the most pertinent cause for soul strain. [Inaudible] are those dreams which are about illness or anything related to, but most dangerous are such dreams in one of, in which in that one violates a taboo. In such illnesses, one may come under a different category, and that category is moral delinquency. Here are not only the actual transgressions of taboo, but equally [inaudible] existence of [inaudible] and ceremonies. Diseases are such [inaudible] are always serious, and the prognosis is, at best, very uncertain. Patients afflicted with such ailments are usually [inaudible]. You may recall that there are still primitive societies where this concept is magical [inaudible] number of important drugs [inaudible] all of which [inaudible]. This may make my statements [inaudible]. If you would visit the other plantation in Malawi, let's say you will find that the coolness of the plantation are [inaudible]. This usually amuses the westerners [inaudible] because why should one pay [inaudible] it's a very expensive medicine anyhow. You must not lose sight of the fact that something [inaudible] is not the remedy. Because malaria is not caused by [inaudible] in the blood but caused by magical causes. Hence, the right hand simply makes a [inaudible] just because of [inaudible] pleasure or because he wants to be bossy, and if he wants that pleasure, it's right in front, he should get paid for it. Now at the same time, we travel north three, 400 miles, and the visit [inaudible]. Then it was found [inaudible] but at the same time malarial medicine, consisting of the same [inaudible] but now given to them in conjunction with the complicated ceremony [inaudible] restrictions [inaudible] and so on. Here the other brain ceases to be useless because it's not a group of [inaudible]. It's part of rituals. You behave in mockery of magical. It was, therefore, logical for [inaudible] to use. In much the same manner, most primitive medical practices contained the various [inaudible] advertising medical improvement [inaudible] is to send the patient off in a certain point of the seashore where he must [inaudible] ledge of a [inaudible] cliff and lie there flat and motionless for an indefinite period [inaudible] on his stomach and indefinite time [inaudible]. The therapy is magical, but it has a scientific rational [inaudible]. The cliffs are [inaudible] which the positions [inaudible]. Because a very effective medicine for diarrhea. [Inaudible] some big surface of the cliff acts as a hot water bottle or as an electric bed, and [inaudible] effect of the shaman's manner [inaudible]. Thus, many of the facets of primitive medicine have a detectable scientific basis. Modern science, as a matter of fact, has some of its origins in it. The Indians here in the United States, in New England for instance, have inserted a fish into each hill of corn what they planted. They thought this magic [inaudible]. It certainly couldn't have given them a scientific explanation of enriching the soil with nitrogen, and the pilgrim fathers equally very ignorant of scientific theories of organic chemistry. [Inaudible] was born 1800, I don't know what. Before the [inaudible] of Indians because [inaudible]. Remember as I told you before, magic is the formula of doing thing the right thing at the right time using the [inaudible] and saying the proper words. Now some of the things or some of the words can become proper in time from experience with them. Thus, many of the magical practices are things [inaudible] gets involved with [inaudible]. To give you a [inaudible] example of this, I had a [inaudible] a shaman [inaudible]. Now he would the shaman with [inaudible] on his chest [inaudible] a very large blue circle. In the middle of it is a letter b, a capital B with lots of [inaudible]. This gentleman is my good friend and colleague, the shaman of the [inaudible]. And the story of the [inaudible]. He bows to my principle [inaudible] field work than on ethnology, and we became fast friends through the several month [inaudible]. He taught me that of the medicine and [inaudible] when he asked for assistance or wanted [inaudible]. Now all my [inaudible] into medicine [inaudible] in a circle. Now so you're thinking normally magical supplies all that these [inaudible]. Very soon, the shaman came over to me and very formally, that coronation who had [inaudible]. Now I told you before that shamans are governed by strict rules of ethics. [inaudible] of copyright. Now [inaudible] without permission of the [inaudible] copyright and the letter [inaudible] within the circle was emblazoned on the chest of my friend. It gave him tremendous amount of additional mana, and the fact it increased his purity powers. Now please bear in mind, I'm not trying to be factitious about this when I ask you to realize that the primitive concept of medicine in [inaudible]. These things are just as real and just as [inaudible] for the native as our most cherished theories in [inaudible]. As a matter of fact, as I told you at the beginning of [inaudible] magic is not [inaudible]. We must [inaudible] our own magical purposes [inaudible] only to believe [inaudible] superstitions and so on. The next time we receive a description from a scientific [inaudible]. Try to remember that we are x on the top left corner is real invocation for a [inaudible] for the more effective worker of the prescription. A vestige of an ancient magical practice. Now I also trust that you [inaudible] remember that your physicians [inaudible] are not based upon magic or the [inaudible] the disappearing of the very weaponry and the great [inaudible]. Some traces and vestiges of magic are still present even in our modern time in medicine. And let me put it to you that this is not bad. It is an important [inaudible] of science, and above all, the art of practicing medicine. It is not trickery. It is not malicious intent of the [inaudible]. Sometime [inaudible] discussion of [inaudible], and we try to determine that which [inaudible] is most important which would be the one [inaudible] practice of medicine. And I came to the conclusion that with more opinion [inaudible]. I attempted to offer the suggestion to [inaudible] magic [inaudible]. It involved this ethnical mana that [inaudible]. There would no [inaudible] physician to heal, and all the physician [inaudible] but all possibilities [inaudible]. Which brings us now to the last part of my lecture. The potential danger of not fully understanding [inaudible] in general and particularly for the [inaudible]. Our [inaudible] modern methods of transportation and community [inaudible]. As if the map of the world just before Columbus made discovery [inaudible]. That map today [inaudible] was made in [inaudible] in primitive societies. [Inaudible] to civilizing process by number of methods of various [inaudible]. Among this [inaudible] scientific medicine. It was, of course, relevant [inaudible] that such [inaudible] uppermost in my mind now is how come and by what means [inaudible]. How much understanding and how much patient [inaudible]. We must admit that during the last war I had to lecture [inaudible]. Under this [inaudible] in primitive societies. So I was sort of giving tips to my students -
[ Inaudible ]
Then I call this suddenly one student of mine will ask [inaudible] moral and what I am trying to do here [inaudible] instead of [inaudible]. So I asked him, well, what would you do. He said, well, [inaudible] that this is a microorganism and then proper rational explanation. So what I told him, alright, [inaudible]. Somebody started explanation [inaudible]. It will be so small you can't see them. I said if I can't see them, where are they. So then he accused me of being unfair because he hasn't a microscope, and [inaudible] microscope to demonstrate [inaudible]. So first I [inaudible] scope and also with the slide of sample [inaudible]. I said, OK, let's go ahead. So he pushed the microscope under my nose [inaudible] look through here. It's tiny little [inaudible]. I looked at the microscope as the natives would look at it. I didn't look through the [inaudible]. I looked at it. Because anyone who [inaudible] knows that if you would give a pair of painkillers to a native, it takes days, sometimes weeks to educate him [inaudible]. He will look at it, at the frozen glass because the glass is transparency. It's an alien concept. Now to try [inaudible] overnight theory of microorganism, optics, and all this would be such a heroic job that the army certainly under pressure couldn't [inaudible]. So somehow we can transmit my [inaudible], but this [inaudible] to you that what difficulties the scientifically trained public health [inaudible] physician may encounter in a magical society. To [inaudible] concept of pathology, physiology, archeology into the primitive mind will take time, time, and, again, time. Education is a very slow process even under ideal circumstances, and in patient and [inaudible], for instance, stupidity is not education. It's a fool hearted folly which can only result in a tragedy for educators to [inaudible]. The process will, indeed, need to be slow. It will need to be a period of transition rather than an immediate change. We will need to adapt temporarily some of the native, primitive concepts in order to be able to educate. Now how can such things be done. Similarly, [inaudible] and many others. Magic will need to be part of the [inaudible] of modern medicine [inaudible]. How these things help [inaudible] may I at least just take two more minutes of your time and tell you the story of my very good friend [inaudible] is the shaman of the [inaudible] tribe [inaudible] in the upper Amazon River who was a very good friend of mine and assisted me greatly with information and knowledge about his tribe. It is customary than when an expedition leaves the native tribe, well, then most of one's belongings are staying there, and we divide them and give them away to all the natives that work for you. So you give your [inaudible] gun barrel or something or to leave the [inaudible] and so on. Now [inaudible], being the shaman and the, a very famous one, I didn't give anything to any person but asked him first to come into the camp and select what he wants. What I expected was that he would select the shotgun. The [Inaudible] is a hunting tribe, and a shotgun certainly will be efficient. [Inaudible], to my greatest surprise, didn't want that. He wanted a pair, two pairs of dental forceps is what I had. One was an upper and one a lower for such a use there in extracting teeth of natives plus he wanted my dental [inaudible] together with the [inaudible] of Novocain, and this was the only desire what he want. I am ashamed to tell you now that I did not give him the syringe and the Novocain. I only given him the upper and lower [inaudible]. This I gave because I felt that way that the present method of extracting teeth is not extracting [inaudible] hitting it off with stones and with toys digging it out. So there I did not feel or that I was a coward and I did not give him my syringe and the Novocain. And today this is confession that I make to you. Today I feel sad about it that I did not. Because I don't think I would have done anything bad and anything [inaudible]. Why? In the hands of my friend [inaudible] that [inaudible] syringe would have been in short of absolute sterility. Because [inaudible] would have not taken this as a scientific instrument but would have taken it as a magical property, and any injunction what we had, what we had given him with it. So the boiling of the syringe for 45 minutes under such and such circumstances. The sterile assembly, definite outlining of where the injection can be made and so on would have been followed by [inaudible] for rational reasoning, but for a much more important one - magical reasoning. Notice to say in the hands of a [inaudible] syringe would [inaudible]. But under tension she may forget. [Inaudible] would never forget because he's very life, his existence, his salvation, his family's life, his community's life would depend on it. Not only just the health and welfare of a single patient or his job. I'm bringing this up to show you that how the magical concept of the native could be used [inaudible] for education. Magic can be a potential ally of the scientific physician. Used its full understanding, it can become one of his most important tools, not only educational primitives but also in the art of his practice. Notice [inaudible] trickery. Not as malicious aide but as a fully proper rational scientific adjunct of healing [inaudible]. Ladies and gentlemen, allow me to thank you for your patience.
[ Applause ]
>> Ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Fejos, whose lecture I am sure you have enjoyed, if I can judge by the reaction I see in the audience, is willing to answer questions now for the next 15 minutes. These questions should be written down, if you please, in what's more convenient to answer them that way, and an attendant will pass through the audience and pick them up, and then I will ask Dr. Fejos in the next 15 minutes to answer as many as he can.
[ Background Discussion ]
Now I think some of you tonight are profiting from the virtue which you derive from coming out on a bad night because then you have the consciousness of this virtue, and you hear always an excellent lecture. A double reward. Is the attendant here to pick up the questions which may be written out? Or perhaps some of you who have questions may bring them up to the platform while we're waiting so there's no.
[ Background Discussion ]
Will you bring me one or two now, and then I'll, then you can get some more.
[ Background Sounds and Discussion ]
Here's the first question. What is your opinion of the miraculous cure at Lourdes? I'm sorry to give you such a difficult one to begin.
>> Dr. Paul Fejos: May I answer with that this is an awfully loaded question, and I wish at all it would not have been given. The point is there that it's not that I would not want to answer it, or I want to get out of the answering, but I am supposed to be a scholar. I am not a clergyman. I'm not the divine. I have learned since very, very long time that one does not mix science and the religion. One cannot argue scientifically with fate. That is to say I believe that if anyone happens to believe in typical [inaudible] he is got right. It's very right and proper that he should do so. It is very right and proper that I shall follow my own beliefs. May I please, however, mention [inaudible] whoever sent it over here that I am not an [inaudible]. It happens that I was baptized [inaudible]. So maybe this one will give me the excuse that would allow me not to answer along this. I don't think that my answering what is my opinion in the miracle [inaudible] at Lourdes that this would really advance the meeting. I mean, I can only tell you one thing that Lourdes certainly and definitely did cure people. That is to say it did happen that people professed to be ill [inaudible] and went away cured. Now if you intend to pin me down that I shall name this magic cure or religious [inaudible], I would beg you let's leave it all because it wouldn't lead anywhere. Let's leave it at that if I may.
>> Dr. Fejos, would you try to touch upon extrasensory perfection -
>> Dr. Paul Fejos: Perception -
>> Perception, excuse me, exclusive of sympathetic patterns.
>> Dr. Paul Fejos: May I simply plead ignorance. I am not a psychologist, and even if I would be a psychologist, how would I dare to talk about parapsychology. I can only tell you so much, which is very little what I know about it, and this I know [inaudible] but there's a foundational exhibit as we do get occasionally petitions from people who want to work on parapsychology. Let's put it that way. I have no opinion on it, but all the psychologists, leading psychologists to whom [inaudible]. That does not mean all of them, but the [inaudible] usually dismiss us with that. That there are as yet not enough scientifically valid materials on extrasensory perception.
>> Another one, Dr. Fejos. Can't you still send the Novocain syringe to [inaudible] is it, or it is too late?
>> Dr. Paul Fejos: No, I believe that [inaudible]'s still alive. I have not seen him now since 1942, but in 1940 [inaudible] the last thing I heard [inaudible]. Now may I tell you that what is the trouble, I could not send it out because I would have no right to send a high [inaudible] syringe out of the United States. Not even a physician can carry out on the border a high [inaudible] syringe and a needle. It could only be done in a manner [inaudible] they should send one of them, but then why should, they wouldn't. They would not be on my beliefs and magic.
>> How do you explain scientifically Houdini's magic tricks?
>> Dr. Paul Fejos: Which one? May I have the trick? Which one? Some of the tricks I could explain. So I don't know which one. If the person sent the question tell me which is the trick and what he's interested, I might be able [inaudible]. [Inaudible] Houdini, the secret is that there are several of the disappearing one [inaudible] the magic, but I'm happy to give you the permission because myself [inaudible] magic. [Inaudible] one is the holding back of the [inaudible] which opens up and which is covered by the [inaudible] through a [inaudible] which is a means [inaudible] is nothing [inaudible] it's still there [inaudible]. The easiest is [inaudible]. But this is not magic. This is [inaudible] production number and [inaudible]. Is it possible that the shaman is aware of his ineffectiveness in certain areas? And still practices with the fate of technology. In my current understanding, the, a shaman may arrive to a point of he is a bad doctor, that is, [inaudible] or let's say of knowledge, and thereby his patients [inaudible]. And then he still practicing something, and the tribe will still believe him. Yes, most definitely. [Inaudible] that the primitive shaman has lesser to contend with in this respect than his scientific [inaudible] because the scientific [inaudible], in spite of the large body of medical knowledge, could not have [inaudible] what the shaman can logically have. That is [inaudible] when you deal with magic, you are dealing with [inaudible] something, like, let's say, like, in extremely fine [inaudible]. That the one unclaimed glass [inaudible] everything. There's much the same way anything in ceremony, anything you think body of magic you're doomed. Being [inaudible] your own way can upset the [inaudible] magic, and nobody will believe that the shaman is bad or is stupid. If a shaman fails to cure somebody, he does not have the anger of the tribe or disappointment. The tribe very [inaudible] understand he couldn't have done it. Something went wrong. Something [inaudible]. So in that respect, the shaman has it much easier than a man in the United States, plus one more thing that there is no malpractice in primitive. You cannot be sued in spite [inaudible].
>> My psychiatric friends in the Academy [inaudible] will be interested in this question. Is psychiatry nothing more a black magic?
[ Background Sounds ]
>> Dr. Paul Fejos: May I plead lack of qualifications to answer that [inaudible]?
>> Next one. Dr. Fejos takes the safe way in answering these questions. [Inaudible] Can you give the name of a book that contains some of the information you gave in your talk? I'm sure Dr. Fejos, you must be the author of books on this [inaudible]. This is an opportunity -
>> Dr. Paul Fejos: No, not on general magic, but if, whoever wrote this would be kind of to come over later on, I'll be more than happy to give not only the titles, but if it pleases even the [inaudible].
>> And this is a question which I hesitate to quote in the Academy of Medicine because it says do not many patients recover naturally without magic or medicine?
>> Dr. Paul Fejos: I shall be the first one to [inaudible], and I'm quite sure that the Academy would not mind my saying so. You must not forget that doctors very frequently, you may not hear it, but very frequently have let the patients get cured sometimes without any ailment. It must not [inaudible] the physician's task all of this as a cure. May I remind you that there are x number of ailments from what you will get cured without any medical intervention? The only point is that would you get as cured as comfortably as you can via the physician. So let's say you can have to select something. Let's say you cannot [inaudible]. It's a rather painful and unpleasant illness. I can assure you nobody dies of it, and if you don't go to any doctor, you can live [inaudible] and nothing will happen [inaudible] infection. You will get nothing, but if you go to doctor, and he prescribes a calamine lotion, you will feel much better and much safer. So the physician [inaudible] is not always the ultimate cure, but there's always the maintenance of health and aide, and I would say it's much more maintenance [inaudible]. It's [inaudible] of the physician, not [inaudible]. Not that. [Inaudible]
>> What was the origin, Dr. Fejos, of knock on wood?
>> Dr. Paul Fejos: I am very sorry, but the origin somewhere at the dawn of unwritten history. It is so old I was [inaudible] months of interest in this and tried to find it and could not. I'm afraid I cannot [inaudible] information.
>> And here's a question. I doubt that this belongs in this subject tonight. Do you think that the findings of the scientific thesis in [inaudible] relieves pressure on the brain?
>> Dr. Paul Fejos: Well, this I think I could to some extent answer. You find the [inaudible] skulls where we find today primitive skulls or prehistory skulls [inaudible]. Usually come from an area where seem to be some reason for [inaudible]. For instance, great amount of pre-find skulls are the Incas in Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador. The three or four nations here definitely in some cases we can proof it were made to relieve intracranial pressure. Now this was made after injury when someone was struck with one of this instruments that they had, and fracture the skull to relieve pressure. A large definition was made here, and the evidence is there that they healed. It was made for that. Equally, well, we must not forget one more thing that the [inaudible] some syphilis was very likely, I would almost say now surely though there are some [inaudible], was an indigent of disease, in the general disease of the Americas. And at least we seem to have the [inaudible] archeological evidence for this. Now we must not forget that an untreated [inaudible] in the ages of these findings are very likely it caused ungodly headaches for these people, not only [inaudible] pains but also [inaudible] and easily possible that to relieve the headache and let out the evil spirit some [inaudible] were made. Some of them would be the surgical measures to relieve intracranial pressure, but some of them are made for spirit [inaudible]. I think that may be answer.
>> Are hypnosis and auto suggestion and psychosomatic medicine akin to the ancient magic of [inaudible]?
>> Dr. Paul Fejos: As long as the term is akin, then I fully agree with you. As long as you don't need to use identical or [inaudible]. Even the simplest [inaudible] fully.
>> And this one is the [inaudible] isn't the belief in the dynamic upward evolution of humanity just as important [inaudible] for our advancement as the belief in magic?
>> Dr. Paul Fejos: I would not object against the statement. Any belief which gets us toward something constructive, I mean, immediately is needed necessary, useful, and proper. I am not so sure that I fully understand the dynamic upward evolution of humanity. And to tell you the honest truth, I am not positively sure of that, but humanity really has a dynamic upward evolution [inaudible]. That is to say evolution should be viewed as a change rather than something which is going toward a better or greater or something. Evolution is a change in time rather, and I am not so sure that I would fully underwrite it, but humanity has an upward evolution in every respect. In many respect, yes, I'm positively sure that it comes on technology, technical [inaudible], yes. In humanity, I am not so sure, but I am not the expect [inaudible].
>> I have only one more question, and I don't think I'll ask Dr. Fejos this question because I think he's answered it already. It is how would you differentiate between magic and religion, and I think, Dr. Fejos, that you've done your duty tonight. I think the audience would agree, and I'll turn the [inaudible] back.
[ Applause ]
>> I wish merely to remind you that the next lecture is Wednesday, December 7th. The title is "Ecology of Health". The speaker is Professor Marston Bakes, professor of zoology, University of Michigan, and we invite you all to be present. Good night.