Meet the 'Double Hater' Voters

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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Happy Friday, everyone. We're at the end of another week that feels dramatic in New York and American politics. Last week at this time, we were digesting the first ever conviction of a former US president at a time when he's running for election again and appears to be at least competitive. This week, we've seen at least two major moves to the center, I think we can say, by Democratic political leaders, Governor Hochul slamming on the brakes at the last minute on the congestion pricing toll for driving into Manhattan below 60th Street, and President Biden announcing a southern border shutdown policy to reduce the number of asylum seekers coming all at once. Now, Governor Hochul was at that announcement, too.

Governor Hochul: If the Republicans had not listened to Donald Trump four months ago, they would have done it the way you're supposed to do it. You pass it through Congress. It was a bipartisan deal. Money for border agents, money for interdiction of drugs, money for technology. They refused to do it because they thought it would give President Biden a win. He did not want to have to do this, but this is what we have to deal with. We can't ignore the fact that while we are a kind and generous people in New York State, and we're proud of the Statue of Liberty, we are at capacity right now because we have had over 200,000 people come over in the last two years.

Brian Lehrer: Governor Hochul this week on MSNBC. The Biden policy is drawing brickbats from both left and right Republicans saying it's not enough or just a reelection ploy. Some Democrats expressing disappointment like Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal of Washington State. She's Chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus. She told The Washington Post, "We should be distinguishing ourselves from Donald Trump on immigration. We should be offering the contrast." Now, Hochul's congestion pricing shocker is dividing Democrats, too. Here's state Assembly Member Zohran Mamdani, who represents Astoria, Queens.

Assembly Member Zohran Mamdani: What the governor has done is pulled out the rug for more than seven million New Yorkers who depend on public transit, and has done so all in the name of political cowardice.

Brian Lehrer: Assembly Member Zohran Mamdani. One way to look at all this politically, the Democratic Party leadership has decided that this is a swing voter election year more than a turnout, the base election year in those swing districts just outside New York City where Republicans have been winning congressional seats lately and nationally in the presidential race. Biden wants the so-called double haters, and we'll talk about that term and invite double haters to call in, to hate him just a little less than they hate Trump.

Let's discuss. With us now, Christina Greer, Associate Professor of Political Science at Fordham University, Moynihan Public Scholars fellow at City College, co-host of the podcast FAQ NYC, host of The Blackest Questions podcast on TheGrio, and author of the book Black Ethnics. Christina, always good to have you on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Christina Greer: Thanks, Brian. It's always great to be here.

Brian Lehrer: Want to jump right in on that theory? Are Hochul and Biden choosing the swing voter strategy over the energize the base as much as you possibly can strategy or would that be too simple a way to look at it?

Christina Greer: I don't know, Brian. It surely looks like they're trying to go for the swing voter because so many diehard Democrats are wondering why they're moving to the center, and possibly center right. It's quite disappointing to a lot of diehard Democrats who fundamentally believe that if you're going to be a Democrat, then don't try to just move toward the rhetoric and notions of Republicans and Donald Trump. As Governor Hochul laid out, yes, New York may be at capacity, yes, there's an influx of immigration, but these draconian policies that many Democrats believe are coming from Joe Biden will never satisfy Republicans, so why not actually energize your base so that you can actually have significant turnout on November 5th?

Brian Lehrer: I want to open the phones right away for our listeners on any of the politics of this week, local in New York or national or even New Jersey, where, of course, we had the New Jersey primary this week. The non-Trump-endorsed Republican for US Senate won that race. Bob Menendez at the same time announced that he's going to run as an independent, scrambling thing. New Jersey, you're welcome, too. Listeners, we heard yesterday on the phones mostly from people happy about the congestion pricing pause. That's who called in. As I said yesterday, that's where the passion apparently was.

If you do an open phones for callers on a talk show, and you don't say we're looking for people with this point of view, or we're looking for people with that point of view, it's generally the people who feel strongest at the moment who call in the most. Apparently the passion was relief or whatever you want to label the emotion on the part of people who are happy that congestion pricing has been delayed. That, of course, is not a scientific sample. Obviously, today, we can keep going. Call us on either side of the congestion pricing question. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

Obviously, there are people on many sides of that. 212-433-9692. Same with the Biden immigration policy. Are you happy about this? Unhappy? Do you have mixed feelings? If you're a double hater on Long Island or in Westchester or Rockland or anywhere in Jersey, does this matter potentially to you and your vote for president or for Congress? Any of these things, 212-433-WNYC. We had one caller yesterday who identified herself as a double hater. I think it was the first time we heard that term on the show. I've been seeing it more in the political press generally in the last few weeks.

Who wants in? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, call or text. By the way, you know who else hates this pause on the congestion pricing toll? The transit workers. Here's John Samuelsen, the head of their union.

John Samuelsen: It's going to be dead until after her election, but it's not even going to help us. The damage is already done. This is like putting milk back into a glass once it's spilled all over the table.

Brian Lehrer: There we go. Another sample of a reaction to that. Christina Greer, our guest. Christina, maybe their arguments make sense, Hochul and Biden, political sense, but maybe also sense in a democracy. Let me float this and see what you think. Voters think the asylum seeker influx is too many, too fast, and it is at a historically very high pace. Maybe what Hochul said about New Yorkers welcoming and believing in the Statue of Liberty, but there has to be a limit at a given moment for how many people the state can absorb is genuine and reflects the will of the voters that it just needs to slow down for a while. It can't be all our problem, and it can't be this much all at once.

Maybe the same with congestion pricing. Too many people all over the region feeling aggrieved by it at a time when the economy is still not what we hope it would be and ready to take it out on Democrats running for Congress. Maybe it makes both political sense and sense in our democracy. What do you think?

Christina Greer: Yes and no. I don't want to take the easy road out. I'm going to separate these two issues, though, Brian, because when it comes to immigration, yes, I think that there are quite a few Democrats who do agree with the governor who say, "Well, I'm seeing a lot of migrants. I'm not exactly sure what's going on. What about--" There's the Republican talking point, crime and public safety. In that vein, Kathy Hochul I think is with the centrists and some conservative leaning Democrats, especially the Long Island folks.

Let's be clear, she's thinking about 2026, because if she's not primaried from within, which she most likely will be, she definitely has an uphill battle with whomever the Republican challenger may be. We get politically why she is straddling this line and leaning possibly center right in some of this rhetoric. When it comes to--

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. That's what John-- I'll let you continue in a minute, but that's exactly what we just heard in the quote from the Transit Workers Union president. This is dead until after her election. I think what we've been hearing this week is mostly analysis of it in the context of this year's election. She's not up until 2026, but that's where you're putting it, at least in part.

Christina Greer: Absolutely. Obviously, a lot can happen between now and 2026, but the political winds essentially say that Kathy Hochul is on shaky ground within her party. Obviously, I've always made the argument had Lee Zeldin had three more weeks, I think we'd be looking at a Governor Zeldin and not a Governor Hochul. It is because of, I would argue, Kathy Hochul at the top of the ticket that New York is the reason why Joe Biden didn't have unified government in 2022, because New Yorkers lost those four seats.

There are a lot of reasons why we can look at Kathy Hochul and her lack of leadership in some areas where if I were her and her team, I'd be quite nervous about 2026. They're trying to come up with, I think, a political strategy and narrative, and that political strategy and narrative looks more like appeasing upstate Democrats who tend to be more conservative than downstate Democrats, but I don't know if that's the best strategy. I don't work for her. I would say that she needs to reshuffle the deck and quickly because the confidence in her as a leader is waning swiftly. When it comes to-- Go ahead.

Brain Lehrer: Go ahead. No, you go.

Christina Greer: I was going to shift to congestion pricing, which seems to be politically a real loss for the governor because it seemed as though this issue was just about to cross the finish line. Whenever you have something that's just agreed upon in many ways, and it's imperfect in so many ways, but it was something that said, "Well, downstate New Yorkers, because you all disproportionately prop up this state, this is something that will help you all in your infrastructure with this $15 billion stop gap." Those of us who sit on the subways in between stations several hours a day know that we need do something to right the wrongs of the MTA and the years and years of, I would possibly argue, ineffective leadership on a whole host of levels.

Whenever something changes course at the last minute, and there are obviously lots of political mechanisms that go on behind the scenes, it gives the air of ineffectiveness. It gives the air that the governor is moving towards the political wins and isn't leading the political wins that one would expect and demand an executive of the state to do.

Brain Lehrer: On the other part of my question, democracy. Maybe this is democracy at work. If most people or a lot of people are feeling this way, either about congestion pricing or about the current pace of immigration, then that's democracy. In an autocracy, a leader would say, "I don't care what you think. This is what I want to do." In a democracy, the leaders do bend to the will of the people, and that's a good thing, even if a lot of people listening right now might disagree with it, with the policy.

Christina Greer: True. This is the beauty and the curse of American democracy, as I always tell my students. This is why I implore people to get involved, not just in voting, but also in running for office, because you may actually be able to dictate some of these decisions if you are an elected, if you're frustrated sitting on the sidelines. There are thousands of political offices that people can run for and to.

Yes, this is the role of a leader. This is the role of an executive to make hard decisions and to choose which constituents get priority and win. The whole nature of American democracy is compromise. We saw this from the inception of the framers when they were trying to figure out what this nation would look like, federalism versus anti-federalism. How much power do we give cities and states and the federal government? Every decision we've ever made as a nation has been based on some version of compromise. This is what we're seeing.

It's incredibly frustrating when you're not on the "winning side of things." This is why we see oftentimes when we have a president that comes in with unified government, during midterm elections, they lose that unified government and it becomes divided government because many Americans actually do like the levers of power to slow down just a touch. They don't like one political party to have all of the power to just do whatever it is that they want and need to do. We're in a moment right now, though, that these conversations just seem to get more and more complicated.

The polarization of the ideologies behind these decisions seem to be getting more and more calcified in a lot of ways. Trying to figure out how you can have party labels that represent, especially when it comes to Democrats, incredible diversity within the party. This is every single state, but New York is just one particular unique example where the assumption is that we're an incredibly blue state.

When you start to look closely, don't forget, New York City had 20 years of a Republican mayor. We had a three term Republican governor in George Pataki. He was a different kind of Republican. That party has long since left and evolved and morphed, and we can use other adjectives as to what they've become. When it comes to the Democrats, we know that what a Democrat looks like in New York City ranges from incredibly blue. I would say that there are several shades of blue in New York City and in New York State, especially.

I think Kathy Hochul is trying to navigate these various shades of blue and purple and far too many Democrats, though, are thinking that she leans a little too much in the purple to red when it comes to issues that they care about. I think we'll possibly see certain disappointments come through if a challenger presents him or herself in late 2025 or 2026.

Brain Lehrer: To go down the democracy rabbit hole, one more step before we go to the phones. I talked about democracy being a responsiveness on the part of the elected leaders to the will of the people, but there's also a risk of a majoritarian bias. If 51% or even 65% of people want a certain thing, but the other 35% are really disadvantaged by it, that's the other part of democracy, is taking minority interests, however we define minority, into account, along with the will of the people as expressed by just what the majority want.

Here's a text from a listener that expresses this. Listener writes, "Congestion pricing reversal, it feels like a last straw. For me, everyone seems to be rushing to represent suburban voters, and I feel me and my neighbors have been thrown to the wayside. Reproductive justice is all that keeps me voting blue rather than independent. Democrats, I seem to know, disagree on police, Gaza, transit..." It ends with an ellipse. There's one of those voters who feels like they're being left behind by maybe the majority of their party at this moment.

Christina Greer: Right. I think that that's quite a few different types of New Yorkers who choose a party based on a particular issue just because that is the one issue that they're holding on to. We're seeing this domestically and internationally as well when it comes to international relations and domestic policies. That's obviously not a long term strategy for a party. I always, obviously, go back to Federalist 10 and look at how the framers were tussling with this idea of not just factions, but how do we represent minority interests?

Again, we can redefine how we choose the word minority, but minority interests and represent those, as well as majority interests and how they consistently fluctuate. Don't forget, our constituencies also change. We have several different identities. On certain issues, you may agree with Kathy Hochul steadfastly and then disagree, and you may be in the majority of some of her policies and opinions. Then in other issues, you may be in the minority, which makes it complicated when you're going to the polls.

This is why it's more-- I tell my students all the time, this is why it's important for us to have qualified candidates who run for office so that you feel in the primary stage, which is oftentimes the most important stage in a lot of districts throughout the state, you have options to actually look at the policy proposals of different people to see how they satisfy these various and sometimes competing identities that are within each of us.

Brain Lehrer: Vincent in Kings Point on Long Island, who describes himself as a charter member of the Double Haters. Vincent, you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.

Vincent: Brian, given the advanced ages of Biden and Trump, can you please include the age factor when you do your 30 Issues In 30 Days series in October, actually. You do the 30 Issues In 30 Days.

Brain Lehrer: We're structuring it a little differently this year, but certainly the age factor is something that we've done segments on and it comes up. Why do you bring it up in relation to what we're talking about today? How does it inform you as what you told our screener as you being a charter member of the double haters club?

Vincent: Well, because I don't like Biden, but I do think that Trump gets a pass on the age issue because he's clearly incoherent in his speeches. I just think that they're both equally too old, but it only sticks to Biden. I'd love to have you get on the air, a gerontologist, a neurologist, and an actuary, and ask them what are the statistical probabilities of these two guys dying in office or being diagnosed with Alzheimer's within the next four years?

Brain Lehrer: Vincent, thank you very much. By the way, the New Yorker Radio Hour did exactly that a few months ago. If you want to go back into the archives, you can hear David Remnick talking to, I think it was a gerontologist or maybe more of a public health epidemiologist who looked at the stats of what might happen to Biden or Trump at their ages, just the thing you're asking for. Certainly, I take your point about Trump getting a pass relative to Biden on the age and cognitive issues there. Let's go to another call. Interestingly, with all the things that I threw out, Christina, that callers might weigh in on, what do you think has 80% of the board again?

Christina Greer: What do I think has 80% of the--

Brain Lehrer: Of the caller board, in terms of topic.

Christina Greer: I think the fact that so many people are disappointed with both tops of the ticket, the more people I talk to, and this is, again, as you like to say, are completely unscientific poll, so many people will say, "I'll vote, but I'm not voting at the top of the ticket. I know that it's important to vote, so I'm just going to vote for all the offices below the presidency," because, as the previous caller just said, they think both are too old. Donald Trump gets a pass on his gaffes, but there could be a question about his intellectual ability, sure. There's just an overall disappointment that we're rehashing 2020 all over again.

Now, the stakes are high, I try and explain to people. Doing that doesn't really help move this country forward, but that argument is an argument that I have had to make in a very longstanding set of commitments to speaking to friends over time. This is not a quickie conversation, and so for people who are listening who are very frustrated that they have family members who are doing that or saying that, or friends, it's not a five-minute conversation just to say your piece. You really have to chip away at helping to explain why it is necessary to vote at the top of the ticket as well and get to the bottom of why people refuse to do so.

Brain Lehrer: Good theory, but the real answer to what are 80% of the callers calling in on is congestion pricing.

Christina Greer: Oh, wow. [chuckles]

Brain Lehrer: Thomas in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Thomas.

Thomas: Hi, how are you this morning?

Brain Lehrer: Good. What you got for us?

Thomas: I have a vending machine business in Manhattan. I drive in Manhattan every day. Personally, I was looking forward to the congestion pricing because there are-- One of the things that I hear frequently is that it's the trucks that are the problem. Stop ordering from Amazon. Stop taking Uber, which are the two things that stop me from moving through the city the most frequently. That's what I have to say about that is that there are so many issues around traffic in New York, and people try and pin the blame on just one aspect of it.

Brain Lehrer: Thomas, thank you very much. Listener writes, "As a diehard liberal and environmentalist, I think this move was smart on Hochul's part. The Democrats are now being perceived nationally as a party of out-of-touch elites who don't understand what it's like to be an everyday American. We can't look at this solely on a national level by imposing a new regressive tax that disproportionately affects middle-income people. We can't be perceived as the party that only cares about elites and the very poorest people in our country because then it looks like the Democrats only support the poorest people in order to give themselves power."

Interesting contrast to some of what we heard from some others so far. Another listener, different from the one I just cited, texts, "This is Governor Hochul's second big failure of nerve on public transit. The first was canceling the LaGuardia AirTrain. Will congestion pricing come up for consideration again? Doubtful. What about all the expenditures for creating the congestion pricing infrastructure? Absolutely disappointed," writes that listener. That's a fact that I think isn't being discussed all that much. Christina, as people debate pro or con, pausing congestion pricing, they spent a lot of money. I think it's close to $1 billion already in setting up the infrastructure.

Christina Greer: I shouldn't be as surprised that 80% of the callers are talking about congestion pricing because we do know, Brian, that people go to the polls based on pocketbook issues. This is a real pocketbook issue for a lot of people. For people who need more money for subways and infrastructure spending, they sit on the subways and are possibly late to work. For people who have hourly wage jobs, they're losing money. Obviously, folks who drive into the city have much more complicated reasonings behind congestion pricing.

I think, though, if we zoom out 30,000 feet, though, Brian, it's a larger story about a perceived lack of leadership from both sides focused solely on the governor. After $1 billion roughly has been spent, after infrastructure has been put together to actually implement this plan, to have it pulled out so quickly, and you have many of Kathy Hochul's Democratic colleagues disagreeing with her fundamentally and pretty vehemently, then you realize that this isn't a political decision that was made where she has built coalitions and built goodwill so that she could have some of her Democratic colleagues stand behind her and support her in this decision.

Brain Lehrer: We'll continue in a minute with Christina Greer from Fordham. More of your calls and texts. We're going to bring international issues into this a little bit more as well. I know that's something that Christina wants to mention in this Friday political analysis that we're doing at the end of a dramatic week. I didn't even mention in the intro when I talked about congestion pricing and Biden's new immigration policy, D-Day yesterday, the 80th anniversary, and all the international politics that have been front and center this week.

I think we're going to hear Christina tell us that she thinks this is going to be a more international affairs election for people under 30 and for a lot of people of color in the United States than most presidential elections are. We'll hear about that. More of your calls and texts. Stay with us. Brian Lehrer on WNYC.

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Governor Hochul: I have a dual problem. We have a lot of people who come looking for a better life. We're trying to manage the scale. I think today is important to give us some breathing room, but also, I have a lot of jobs that are open. I want them to get work permits so they can fill the thousands of jobs that we've identified for them.

Brain Lehrer: Again, Governor Kathy Hochul on MSNBC this week supporting President Biden's new border shutdown policy, which we're talking about, among other politics of the week, with Christina Greer, Professor of Political Science at Fordham, co-host of the FAQ NYC podcast, author of the book, Black Ethnics. Christina, can we linger for just a minute on the immigration policy? Can you take a shot at explaining it in brief to people because I think a lot of people don't understand it?

A lot of people say either he's just doing what Trump would do, shutting down the border, or this doesn't really mean anything because it still allows a lot of asylum seekers to come in before a border shutdown would kick in. It's all a little confusing. How do you understand it?

Christina Greer: I'm still trying to sift through it. I went back to read JFK's book called A Nation of Immigrants that he wrote in, I think 1960, where he mentioned almost zero immigrants from Latin America, South America, Asia, or Africa. It was a different conversation that they were having during the JFK's time, during his conception of A Nation of Immigrants. Kathy Hochul and Joe Biden, many things can be true at the same time. Do we have an influx of people who want and need to come to the United States? Absolutely. Do we have economic constraints in various cities and suburbs when we have lots of people who come? Yes.

Did Joe Biden try and work across the aisle with Republican senators who had certain demands when it came to the border and immigration? Yes. Did he give them what they wanted? Yes. Did they reject it? Yes. Finally, when he starts making executive orders, and mind you now, executive orders have been used over time for some amazing things. Integrating the armed forces, Emancipation Proclamation, setting up the Peace Corps. They've also been used for Japanese internment camps where we had Japanese, Italian, and German people interned in this country.

We've used executive orders to expand and contrast our democratic principles of this nation. Joe Biden is now saying, "Okay, you all are demanding these policies when it comes to immigration. I'm giving you what you want, Republicans, so we can at least say we're moving the needle in some way." Republicans are saying, "Well, now it's not enough." I think the frustration that many democratic voters have, which is, it will never be enough for Republicans.

Some would argue the cruelty will never be enough for Republicans. Why try and appease Republicans? Think creatively about a way that we can integrate people into our nation, as we have done for over 200 plus years. That is, I think, the tension that Joe Biden and the Democratic Party in Washington, DC is experiencing, where they keep moving closer and closer to the demands of the Republicans, losing many people in their base, and Republicans are still not satisfied and still saying they're doing too little.

Brain Lehrer: Now, back to congestion pricing, Governor Hochul is trying- -to replace the money that the toll would've generated to fund capital improvements for the MTA and the next-generation transit infrastructure, as well as strong maintenance for the current infrastructure with a tax. That tax would be a payroll tax on businesses just in New York City. It looks like that's not going anywhere in the legislature before they adjourn for the year, which is going to be today or tomorrow it looks like. Thomas in Manhattan is calling about the tax angle of this. Thomas, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Thomas: Hi. I remember a few years ago when I think it was Sheldon Silver who wanted to win the New York Senate for Democrats, and he repealed a tax on commuters. It was to win a few seats in Westchester, in the New York State Senate so that Democrats would control both houses. What I remember is New York lost that revenue forever, and Democrats didn't win the New York State Senate that year. I think that Hochul is pandering to a few drivers, a few commuters in the Hudson Valley, and I don't think it's going to work.

Brian Lehrer: Thomas, thank you very much. We have a clip of Republican Congressman Mike Lawler, and I think the caller was more on the Democratic side, but saying this strategy for Democrats doesn't work in the suburbs anyway, and they're certainly going to hear that argument from the swing district Republicans who just got elected in 2022 and want to get back in. Here is Congressman Mike Lawler from a little bit north of the city.

Congressman Mike Lawler: She is making a political decision in an election-year gambit.

Brian Lehrer: There's that. Do you remember the Sheldon Silver commuter tax or the commuter tax that used to be in effect for basically the same thing, and then I think the caller got history right. The powerful leader of the state assembly from a number of years ago, Sheldon Silver, got them to undo the commuter tax to try to win a few extra seats in the legislature and win majority Democratic control. It didn't work but they've been trying to figure out how to replace that revenue stream ever since.

Christina Greer: Brad Lander actually has a great op-ed in the Daily News, reflecting on this 25 years ago.

Brian Lehrer: The New York City comptroller.

Christina Greer: Yes, thank you. I just assume your listeners know everything, I'm sorry, but how Shelly Silver killed the New York commuter tax and Brad Lander is costing the city 19 billion that we could have spent on transit and infrastructure. Brian, I was knee-deep in grad school, so I think I was listening, but [laughs] things were a little complicated back then.

I think the caller is correct in his assessment in that. There are so many different types of democratic constituencies that Kathy Hochul is thinking about in her reelection chances because obviously, we don't have term limits in New York state, and I'm assuming plans to run again. You have your Long Island commuters who come into New York City. You have your Westchester Commuters who come into New York City. You have people upstate who obviously come into New York City.

I think she's trying to play to so many different audiences, and in doing so, assuming that the New York City residents who are assumed to be deep blue won't abandon her politically at the polls. I think that that might be an incorrect assessment, especially if she has a primary challenger.

Brian Lehrer: Well, that's for 2026, but for this year, maybe these things don't really discourage base voters. There are certainly some writing in who are very discouraged, but maybe base voters more to the left, if we consider them that way, are so averse to Trump and the policies that come with him, be they on the justice system or abortion rights or immigration or democracy itself or whatever, that the base turnout will still be strong come November in the congressional races and in the presidential race so playing to the middle just as a political strategy is smart.

Christina Greer: Yes and no. I think the base voters, yes, they're unmoved. On both sides, they're unmoved. I think there's an asterisk to that though, Brian, which is young people and certain constituencies who are completely disappointed, disgusted, disaffected, all the things with leadership writ large, Kathy Hochul is thrown in that net as well.

They don't think that the Democratic party, and this is for democratic voters, is living up to the ideals that they're supposed to live up to when you have an opposition that is anti-immigrant, anti a lot of things with the list that you laid out. Will Joe Biden be punished by the base? No, but there is a segment of a democratic voter that is there is a new voter, someone who hasn't voted in many elections before, someone who doesn't have an allegiance to the party in the same ways as maybe some older democratic voters, or someone who just feels like we have to shake up the system.

That's what I keep hearing from my students who are just like, "We keep voting the same way and getting the same results. Something has to change." This election, I'm willing to gamble with that change. Now, the opposition, Donald Trump in a possible second presidency, is a frightening concept for a lot of people. That doesn't seem to be discouraging a small percentage of young people and folks who are looking at domestic and international affairs and quite frustrated and are just willing to either sit this one out or vote for a third party or just leave it blank, leave the top of the ticket blank.

Brian Lehrer: They'll hear Biden from now to November, say his line that says, "Don't compare me to the almighty, compare me to the alternative." We'll see how much it lands. You mentioned to us off the air that this is the first time or one of the rare times when those young people, maybe some of your students and people of color around the country are going to the polls for international issues, Gaza, Ukraine versus just straight pocketbook issues.

Can you elaborate on that? I think what we keep seeing in the polls is young people and voters of color surprising pollsters by how many are considering Trump, not so much because they're willing to just tear it all down and start over, but because inflation beats all those other concerns, even beats abortion rights, even beats immigration and student loan debt for more people in that under 30 and people of color democratic base, constituency than pundits might have expected.

Christina Greer: It's super early to know. Obviously, as we get closer to October, we'll have better assessments. I'm not convinced on the switching to Trump, not with the young people I've spoken to. Now, granted completely unscientific polling. Even with Black people who are choosing not to vote for Biden, it doesn't seem to be a switch over to Trump. Many people find him just abhorrent on so many levels.

The issue is thus, when we say people go to the polls for pocketbook issues, it's issues like inflation or how much money do you feel you have. Can you pay your rent, gas, milk, all the standard bearers? This is the first time I'm hearing young people and other democratic voters who are saying for the first time, "Linking our money spent in international affairs to the money that is not at home."

Because we are very connected, we've got TikTok, we've got Instagram, they're seeing images of how their money is being spent abroad and saying, "I don't think that I should be paying for things that I don't believe in." Now, again, see previous conversation about compromise and representative democracy, but this frustration with at home, you're saying that you don't have money for my schools. At home, you're saying you don't have money for infrastructure and effective subways.

At home, you're saying prices are just going up because of inflation and you can't control it, but each morning I wake up and we see billions of dollars being spent abroad on possibly international affairs that I may not necessarily agree with. These are the conversations that I'm having with young people. This is part of their abstinence that they're interested in exploring in November, not necessarily a vote for Donald Trump.

They find him to be not a solution in any capacity, but they're not necessarily making the connection that by possibly letting someone like Donald Trump into the White House again, a second term of Donald Trump when he's already been able to case the joint the first time, makes for a very dangerous possibility when we know that he does not necessarily respect the will of law or believe in separation of powers and checks and balances.

Brian Lehrer: All right, we're going to leave it there for today with Christina Greer from Fordham University, Political Science Professor. She co-hosts the podcast FAQ NYC. What's on your latest podcast? Do you want to give it a little plug?

Christina Greer: Let's see. I think Katie Honan on Monday is holding down the fort. Harry and I will both be off for Monday, but she'll be discussing congestion pricing.

Brian Lehrer: Katie Honan, by the way, is going to be a guest later on in the show for something that she's done off the politics beach. He's written a good piece about things to do in THE CITY this summer, and we thought that would be a good way to end the show on a Friday in June. Katie Honan from THE CITY coming up on that later this morning. Christina Greer from Fordham, and author of Black Ethnics and the podcast, FAQ NYC, with Harry Siegel and Katie Honan, thank you for your wisdom and receiving phone calls and texts with us today.

Christina Greer: Thank you so much, Brian.

 

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