New York After Roe

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. As the Supreme Court looks very likely to overturn Roe versus Wade in the coming weeks, we'll go now to two New York lawmakers who've introduced bills in the state senate to protect abortion access for New Yorkers and presumably people in other states who would be most affected by current or impending restrictions. We'll also talk about some other news, including what a district judge's decision to toss out congressional district maps on the grounds that they were illegally gerrymandered would mean for New York's primary elections and control of Congress and also about Governor Hochul's new lieutenant governor. Maybe tellingly, he's a congressman from a swing district, a little bit upstate.

Joining me now Liz Krueger, New York State Senator representing Manhattan's East Side and the 28th District and Chair of the Finance Committee, among other things, and Alessandra Biaggi, State Senator representing the 34th Senate District, which includes parts of the north and east Bronx and West Bronx and Westchester. Senator Biaggi is also running in the Democratic primary in the race to represent the Third Congressional District. That's the one Tom Suozzi currently holds in Queens and Long Island, which was looking friendly for a progressive like her for the nomination until the court threw out those lines perhaps. We'll see what she says comes next. Senator Krueger and Senator Biaggi, always great to have you both on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Senator Liz Krueger: Thank you, Brian, and hello my colleague senator.

Senator Alessandra Biaggi: Thank you. Hi, Senator Krueger.

Brian: First things first, I just want to give you both an opportunity to react to what appears to be clear evidence that the Supreme Court will overturn Roe versus Wade. Senator Krueger, do you want to go first?

Senator Krueger: Thank you. It's actually devastating. Two days later, I still feel so angry, devastated that the Supreme Court of the United States has not only failed all the people of this country but has clearly completely misread our constitution and the precedent set by previous courts over 50 years. It's just going to be so damaging. Please understand, Brian, if this decision comes through, as we believe it now will, 26 states to start are going to potentially outlaw all abortions. That doesn't mean women won't get abortions.

They will. They did before Roe v. Wade, but particularly Black and Brown women and young women and poor women will be having illegal dangerous abortions or self-aborting and women are going to die. Women's futures are going to be completely spun on their heads. They can even go to jail. The healthcare providers can go to jail. What are we doing to ourselves?

Brian: Senator Biaggi?

Senator Biaggi: I echo everything that Senator Krueger just said. Abortion is healthcare. It saves lives. There really is no such thing as a ban on abortion. There is only a ban on safe abortions. I feel infuriated. There is really no thing that we can't do in New York to make sure that this state truly is a reproductive sanctuary state because we know that as soon as the Supreme Court overturns Roe, there are going to be people from states across this country where Roe and the right to choose and access to reproductive justice and freedoms are going to be inaccessible. This state is really going to be, I think, an important place for lots of people to come.

Just one thing I want to note here is that there's a lot of talk about there is no right to an abortion in the constitution. The right to privacy is how we get the right to access an abortion and reproductive rights and reproductive justice. I will just also note that there's no mention of women, I believe in the Constitution either, but that is not something necessarily that we should be honoring as a precedent. It really is a problem to remedy. I think there's a lot to do and New York is going to take, I think, a really big role in being a leader on that.

Brian: Senator Krueger, you've introduced a bill, I see, that would prohibit law enforcement agencies in New York from working with law enforcement agencies in other states on abortion-related investigations. What can you tell us about the details of that bill and where it stands?

Senator Krueger: I've introduced quite a few bills related to abortion rights including having been lead sponsor on the bill we passed a few years ago, The Women's Reproductive Health Act, which thank God we have in New York now because it at least initially protects us from the Supreme Court decision because we've already established Roe v. Wade as statutory law in New York State. These additional bills that I and many others are exploring putting in right now-- I think there's probably a new bill every hour at the moment are an attempt to make clear that since we expect refugees from the 26 states where abortion won't be illegal to be crossing our borders to get healthcare.

We have announced that we are a sanctuary state, that women can and should come here who need legal safe abortion, that other states are already exploring laws that would allow them to chase women down if they come to our state for healthcare services to try to stop providers in New York State from providing legal healthcare procedures by threatening them through extradition, through financial penalties, through even sending bounty hunters with names and addresses to our state.

There's a series of bills that would say you can't extradite our providers, that you cannot come after them for criminal activity or what's defined as criminal activity in your state, which is legal and within their scope of healthcare practice here in New York and that no, there is no criminal justice agencies within the State of New York who are going to work with and cooperate with states who attempt to cross our borders and violate our laws for people in the State of New York, whether they are residents of the State of New York or not.

Brian: I heard a chilling interview on NPR this morning with NYU professor Melissa Murray, who talked about this prospect and from a law professor standpoint, the constitutional questions raised, if some of the states that will ban all or almost all abortions will actually try to prosecute women when they return home for getting abortion in another state like New York where it's legal.

Senator Krueger: Exactly. Unfortunately, we can't, the State of New York, protect those women within their own states, but we can do our damnedest to make sure that if they come here for healthcare services and are provided healthcare services that nothing is going to happen to them here and no other state is going to be able to come across our borders, physically or through legal documents to go after our providers.

Brian: Senator Biaggi, I see a bill that you're introducing would establish an abortion access fund that would enable taxpayers in New York State to contribute directly from their income tax returns. Specific language in the bill says, "It'll help to break down barriers to abortion care." Explain where that money would go to the taxpayers of New York who might be listening?

Senator Biaggi: Absolutely. The Abortion Access Fund Bill that I carry, first and foremost, was introduced in July of 2019. This is a bill that will fund the operational and the programmatic expenses for not-for-profit entities such as Planned Parenthood and other facilities that are offering abortion care and other reproductive services. In terms of operational expenses, we want to make sure that we are able to pay the people who provide these services and also work in these facilities, as well as, making sure that those who are seeking access to abortion services or reproductive care can actually receive the services and travel to our state or travel across the state from within the state.

So transportation costs, childcare costs, lodging, and other logistical support costs. Also, really the service itself. Making sure that the cost of receiving the service is also covered. I want to just note that in New York we have really done a lot to make sure that New Yorkers who are seeking an abortion actually can receive one. New York is really one of only 16 states to cover abortion under Medicaid. That's an incredible thing that we've done here. However, there are, of course, gaps in insurance coverage and many New Yorkers lack insurance coverage altogether.

Some people don't qualify for Medicaid and are uninsured. As we know an abortion can cost hundreds of dollars and so there are also in addition to the people who live in New York, individuals coming from out of state who face additional costs and barriers. This is a bill that will address those issues by making sure that New Yorkers can actually contribute to it right on their tax forms. For those who are thinking to themselves, "That seems like an interesting idea. Do we already have that on our tax forms already? Are there other things we can contribute to?"

The answer is yes. Currently, if you look at your tax forms which I'm sure nobody in New York right now wants to do, but if you were to do that, you would see that there are other voluntary contribution funds that already exist for other issues. For example, contributing to Alzheimer's research or other issues that we care about as well.

Brian: The bottom line here is that there's going to be a disparate impact when many of these states-- the 22 states who that have been counted as having these trigger laws that will take effect as soon as Roe versus Wade is overturned, assuming that it is, that the disparate impact on lower-income women is so stark that people who have enough money to contribute to their ability to go out of state for an abortion are being asked to do so by you in this bill voluntarily, right?

Senator Biaggi: That's exactly right. Just for some context here. In 2018, in New York, more than $2 million was raised for already existing funds to make sure that we are able to offer additional funding for the providers that already exist. This is another means to make sure that, again, New York is able to actually cover the need because if we just look at how many people are coming to New York already, and the people inside of New York, New Yorkers who are already seeking access to abortion services, we know that it might be easier for people in New York city, but also we have to think about rural areas of this state and how difficult that might be.

We know that New York is going to have an incredible increase in people coming from across the country, Senator Krueger just referenced it when she was speaking earlier. We have to be prepared because the worst thing that we could do is not have enough funding to provide access to life-saving care and really see a loss of life that would be devastating. I know that New York can prevent that from happening

Brian: Abortion refugees. This is the second day in a row that term has come up on the show. This is the new America that we're apparently already living in really, to some degree, and might be living in even much more. If this draft decision comes down anything as written. This is WNYC FM HD and AM New York, WNJT FM 88.1 Trenton, WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJY 89.3, Netcong, and WNJO 90.3 Toms River.

We are New York and New Jersey public radio and live streaming at wnyc.org, with New York state senators, Liz Krueger, and Alessandra Biaggi, on New York state legislative responses to the possibility that Roe versus Wade will be overturned despite abortion continuing to be protected as a right in New York state. We have many phone calls coming in. We have time for a few Kathy in Summit, New Jersey, I think has an interesting question here, Kathy. You're on WNYC. Thank you for calling.

Kathy: Yes. Hi, thank you so much for taking my call because this whole thing is freaking me out. There's a big part of this problem. Basically, it's subjugating women. What's coming up, what really just irates me is the fact that men are never involved in this. In those trigger states, if a woman cannot have an abortion, and they also say if that's the case in this day of DNA and talking to a woman who's the father, they say that man has to pay 50% of the prenatal care.

The state will take care of the rest, and they have to look after that child, they're responsible for the next 18 years, or the state takes care of that too. Why is it that men are not involved in this? Then you'll see those states because obviously, it is just about subjugating women. They don't want cost for the man. Why is that not in here? This did not happen in a vacuum.

Brian: Great question, Kathy. Senator Krueger. Do you happen to know if any of those trigger law states include in those laws responsibility for the biological father?

Senator Krueger: I don't, I think it's a great research question. Thank you very much, Kathy. I think that actually as women we all do have our own experiences knowing that even in existing paternity laws and family court situations, we often find that it is a little too easy for men who choose to avoid their responsibilities for their biological children. To get away with hiding their assets and resources or failing to pay their child support.

I think it's a fascinating discussion of what kind of laws can and should be passed at the state level. Again, family law is state law to hold the biological father responsible for that pregnancy. If it's being forced to be continued and the woman is being forced into a situation that she did not want to be in. Thank you very much for the ideas. I think perhaps many of us will be exploring those questions state by state.

Brian: We'll follow up on that here too. Margo in Montclair has a question about this prospect of women from other states being prosecuted when they return home after getting a legal abortion in New York. Margo, you're on WNYC. Hi, there. I will note that even though our guests are New York state senators, the best calls in this segment are coming from New Jersey, just saying. Margo, hi, you're on WNYC. [laughs]

Margo: Hi, that wasn't really my issue, although I do think it's ludicrous that could happen. I also totally agree that the man should pay at least 50%. My question-- I just want someone to answer, why are the HIPAA laws not protecting women? The HIPAA laws say nobody can know anybody else's health issue, but this is okay? I don't understand why that hasn't been brought up. I don't-- [crosstalk]

Brian: Yes. Actually, I thought because I knew you were bringing up HIPAA laws, I thought it was in the context that I laid out. I apologize, but it certainly is relevant. If there are these medical privacy laws, the HIPAA laws, Senator Biaggi, then on what grounds can the other states investigate? What healthcare the woman received in New York?

Senator Biaggi: I will just say that your question is probably one of the most timely questions because I also have a bill actually that will address the confidentiality of individuals who receive abortion. Their names, as well as their addresses. We already have protections in our law around individuals who are domestic violence survivors and victims, some of other crimes and so partly making sure that we protect the names and the addresses is one aspect of this. The second aspect of this is actually another bill that I just introduced this week. It's called the Fire Hate Act.

The purpose of the bill is to provide additional protection for individuals who travel to New York for an abortion or to receive gender-affirming care. Let's just focus on abortion for the sake of this segment and to make sure that there is actually a cause of action for unlawful interference with someone's protected rights. Now, this is a cause of action as a response to a state taking any kind of litigious response to an individual who came to New York. It's a countersuit.

It would protect individuals who are seeking abortion care in New York who may be sued or criminalized by another state's laws for seeking that care. We are getting incredibly creative, but also thoughtful about how we can amend, as well as pass and introduce laws and bills in New York, to make sure that we are coming at this at every angle. Hopefully, this is one of many bills that will address the issue that's raised and really go as far as possible to protect people's civil liberties and rights.

Brian: Senator Biaggi.

Senator Krueger: Brian, if I could just-- So sorry.

Brian: Senator Krueger hang on one second on that, because I know Senator Biaggi has to go a couple of minutes before you do. I want to make sure you get to answer a question about your race for congress now. You're a state Senator at the moment, but you're vying to represent a district that was newly drawn in the redistricting process. That would be the so-called Long Island Sound District with a little bit of Queens, little bit of the Bronx, little bit of Westchester, around the Sound, but the court threw it out.

What is the ruling from the court of appeals and the new district maps that the court's special master is going to draw, we don't know what they're going to be, affect your ability as a progressive, I think self-described progressive member of the state Senate to run in a primary?

Senator Biaggi: We'll just say that even though it might seem like that because of my role as a state Senator, I actually don't have any more information than the rest of New York. Unfortunately, I don't have much more to add other than the fact that I got into this race because I want to represent not only my home, but also New York in Washington DC. I think that it's important that we wait to see what the new lines, of course, will bear. Once those new lines are drawn and also accepted by the courts, then I think we'll be able to make some more informed decisions, but really importantly I think it's important that everybody who's listening understands that this is something that's going to take some time.

It's a little bit awkward and be almost in a limbo situation. Essentially, we have to make decisions based on what we know right now and be prepared to change if, and when we get any new information. I will just say this is very typical in terms of New York state politics, that we are on a roller coaster ride. There's not been a minute that I've been in office where we haven't been going through zigs and zags through any process, whether it's legislative or electorally and so very much part for the course in this state. I will just have to stay tuned to see what happens with the new line

Brian: Senator Biaggi. I know you got to go. I'm going to let you go. Thank you for coming on with us.

Senator Biaggi: Thank you so much for having me, Brian.

Brian: Senator Krueger, just to finish up with you you were trying to get in a minute ago, I'll let you just say whatever you were wanting to say.

Senator Krueger: Thank you. I just wanted to say raising the HIPAA issue is so crucial because it ties into another terrifying reality of the Supreme court decision. This decision is going after Roe v. Wade, but if you read the decision, they're really attempting to remove your right to privacy under the constitution. If we don't have a right to privacy, then it's not clear at all that we have a right to privacy in our healthcare information and they could overthrow HIPAA.

They could overthrow endless different pieces of law. Frankly, just fundamental assumptions we all have as Americans as to what our rights and protections are in the constitution. If you care about choice, this decision in the leaked version is devastating, but if you care about constitutional protections that have been built in, frankly, from the civil war forward to our constitution, you should be in total panic about what these folks might do next.

Brian: Last question, Governor Hochul has appointed a new lieutenant governor after Brian Benjamin was forced to resign new lieutenant governor is Antonio Delgado. Some of our downstate listeners may not know that name, but he's the member of Congress from a district in the upper Hudson Valley. I wonder if you think it's fair to say that his Hudson Valley District is prime territory for a Republican challenger, that it's a swing district this year, and it was a timely move for him to get out, as well as that he might make a good running made for Kathy Hochul.

Senator Krueger: I have no crystal ball on what those new maps are going to look like either just like Senator Biaggi said. Yes, there was an assumption that that was already a hard seat to hold and potentially was going to be redrawn by the Republican judge from Steuben County in charge of the whole thing now. That, that was going to be redrawn to be almost an impossible seat. I don't have that crystal ball. Nonetheless, he made the decision to accept the invitation to become the lieutenant governor, and to run with Kathy Hochul. Although you don't run as a team, you run individually in the November election.

I just met him for the very first time two days ago. I like all New Yorkers, are hoping to get to know him better, hear what he has to say as we're thinking through who we're going to vote for in the primary, whenever it is because we're still not 100% sure. Then later, of course, all New Yorkers thinking about who they're going to vote for lieutenant governor and separately for governor in November

Brian: State senator, Liz Krueger from the East Side of Manhattan. Thank you so much for coming on with us.

Senator Krueger: Thank you for having me.

 

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