[music]

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. The Guggenheim Exhibit Forothermore closes on April 10th, so New Yorkers, you still have a little bit of time to check out the career-spanning survey of work by artist Nick Cave. The title of the show, Forothermore, is a word made up of three words, and the show itself is separated into three sections with the themes, what it was, what it is, and what it will be.

What you will find is a multitude of mediums, metal, sequins, feathers, even his late grandfather's tools, used to make sculptures and installation pieces that tell stories about Black bodies, recent history, and his own family history. The show features Cave's notable soundsuits, that the Guggenheim describes as a "means of obscuring his identity as a queer Black man for protection, while paradoxically, amplifying his radical otherness."

Have you seen these suits? Yes, you probably have. Mosaic versions of them were installed in the Times Square 42nd Street subway station. They are beautiful. The artist, Nick Cave, and Guggenheim chief curator, Naomi Beckwith, joined me earlier this year to discuss the show, which we're revisiting before it closes on April 10th. Here is our conversation.

[music]

I have to ask, Nick, Forothermore-- Separate, it's three words, for, other, more, [laughs] what do they mean together for you? What do they mean separately for you?

Nick Cave: What they mean separately comes from this idea of forevermore, and that is, forevermore, not being forgotten. Forothermore is really about being inclusive, including all, this moment, this exhibition. My practice is always being inclusive and really bringing us together collectively.

Alison Stewart: Naomi, when you think about this word as a guiding title for this show, is there a piece that you think really gets to it?

Naomi Beckwith: Oh, that's an excellent question. I would say, for me, it's not so much a singular piece, but I'm really thinking more about, perhaps, a floor of the exhibition. The floors are set, as you rightly mentioned, in three segments, what it is, what it was, and what it shall be, but I'm really interested in what it is right now. What it is, is the place where you see, probably, the widest breadth of Nick's practice, where you see both his engagement with what are the social ills of our world, anti-Black, anti-queer violence.

You also see his deep engagement with beauty, hope, the body, and the ways in which he can really transform everyday material into the most magical thing. For me, what it is, is a place where you are both dazzled, but you're also getting a really strong message

Alison Stewart: About those objects, Nick, is it the situation where you have an idea and you go in search of your material, or does the material talk to you and say, "Use me. Make me something."?

Nick Cave: Great question. It works hand in hand. I have a broad idea, and then everything that I need is really outside of my studio, so I'm out in public space, at the antique malls, flea markets, gathering materials and resources. It's really that moment when something provokes, or that shifts the practice in a way that aligns these messages in this really prolific way.

Alison Stewart: Naomi, I want to ask about using the museum itself, using the multiple levels. How did you think about using the multiple levels and the side galleries for this show?

Naomi Beckwith: Well, really, the architecture of the museum is a gift, as many of you who have seen the Guggenheim know. There was a particular gift to this show. in that part of thinking about Forothermore, as Nick mentions, is about time. We wanted to embrace this aspect of time in the show, which is why it came in these three sections. We had this perfect opportunity to work on three levels of the museum.

You, as a viewer, march through those three levels, starting from the earliest work, in what it was, looking at what influenced Nick, what he's learned from his family, and through his formal and informal art education. What it is gives us the present, where we are in the world. Then we wanted to look toward the future, which is what it shall be, that top floor, which is, of course, not an eye into the future, because no one knows what it is.

It's about a hopeful look at what the future can be, what happens when we imagine us as a different kind of beings, humans, as something otherworldly, if we imagine living in a world framed by beauty, rather than by violence. Those three stories allow us to tell three stories, as in levels of floors, allow us to tell three stories about time, and the way Nick looks at it.

Alison Stewart: My guests are Nick Cave, the artist, and Naomi Beckwith, the curator. We're talking about Nick Cave's solo exhibition at the Guggenheim, Forothermore. There's a beautiful piece, Nick, that has your grandfather's tools in it, your late grandfather's tools, made not long after he passed. How does this piece honor your grandfather, and how does the piece honor makers?

Nick Cave: Well, I think that's a great question. I think for me, as I sit with myself, I realize that I come from a family structure of makers, from woodworkers to quilters, to seamstresses, to painters, to poets. I was surrounded by makers growing up, and realized the impact of that as a young kid, at a distance, viewing and absorbing that, that really has established this amazing foundation for me.

Alison Stewart: That's interesting. You don't know anything other than this, but I'm curious, as a person who lives in the world, what do you think makers understand, Nick, that other people don't? People who don't make things?

Nick Cave: Well, I think for me, what I understand, it's always been this place that I have always gone to. It has always been my savior. It's the place that I can, maybe not through words, but through the idea of making something, I can express something. It has always been this amazing-- I'm fortunate to be able to use the hands, this process, as a way of delivering and saying something.

Naomi Beckwith: If I may interject, as well. I've learned something, I think, looking at Nick's work, listening to the stories of his family, and seeing this material, and that is makers have two things at their disposal. One is that skill, that Nick has basically inherited, which is amazing, and then the second thing is, they always have access to something, some material, in the world. You don't have to go and buy something. You don't have to find the fanciest thing in the world.

Everything around you is fodder for a creative potential. Everything that you need in the world, you can put together yourself, with your own hands. I think this is the knowledge of the maker, that I think Nick also brings to his audiences. The simple things are your gifts.

Alison Stewart: There's one large piece called Wall Relief, from 2013. It's four large panels, and it is all of these objects that are interconnected, hundreds of objects, some manmade, some nature, or they're images of nature. Lots of birds. Nick, this might sound like an obvious question, but how do you know when a piece like that is complete?

Nick Cave: I think with any of the work, there's a moment where it just takes a breath, for me, and I know that it has arrived. Then there's moments where it's not going to-- [chuckles] That breath is not going to happen. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: It won't let you alone. [laughs]

Nick Cave: It's really through this rigor that you learn about how to read, and how to arrive at a particular point, within a work. It communicates back at you.

Alison Stewart: Naomi, when you are thinking about placement with a piece that big, what are some of the conversations you have with yourself about placement so that we, as the museum-goer, can take all of that in, but also understand where it belongs in the bigger picture?

Naomi Beckwith: I think you get the core of exactly what a curator does, which is two things. One is to make sure that we're telling a story with an exhibition. We're not just putting things on the wall and decorating a space, but we really want to create a path for the visitors and the viewer. The path for a work like a wall piece is to A, put it in the place that is about honoring, learning, family, and materials. First of all, it had to be in that first section, in what it was. The second thing that we do is to make sure it pops.

Everything in the show needs to have a beautiful sight line. It needs to have its own space. It needs to be seen in relationship with other things. You can stand in one place and see this wonderful Wall Relief, this great, dazzling array of all these ceramic objects, metal flowers, and chandeliers sparkles through more recent work, and adjacent to more historic work, like the other homage to his grandfather, time and again, that you mentioned earlier. Really allowing a work to stand in conversation with other things but hold its own space, is super, super important.

Alison Stewart: The day I was there, I overheard something interesting. I'm curious if you ever listened to people going through the show. It was two of the gentlemen who worked there, who were security, and one of them was an older gentleman, two Black men, and the older gentleman was telling the story about working in a security job, and then speaking perfect French to somebody, and some of the younger guys were shocked that this Black man knew French.

It was happening in the middle of your show, in the middle of the section with the Black Arms. It was just [unintelligible 00:11:52] as, "Are you part of the show?" [chuckles] It just felt like this very interesting moment, that this person who worked there felt very comfortable saying this fairly loudly, in the middle of the show. I loved it, but I thought it was interesting. I thought like, "Maybe he's feeling really emotional. Maybe he's feeling vulnerable, or feeling empowered to have this conversation."

Nick Cave: Well, I think that's the beauty of this exhibition, that it brings us together to communicate and have these amazing moments, relationships, that you're sharing and engaged in. That story that you just mentioned, how lovely for that moment to have happened.

Naomi Beckwith: There's a way in which when Nick makes this work from material that's familiar, I think people understand it's for them. That it's not something for him, fancy, overly alien, but it's something that they can recognize and see themselves in. One thing that Nick also really impressed upon me and my team at the Guggenheim, was that he wasn't interested in people having an individual relationship with the objects.

You don't just go in, look at the work, hold this very intellectual stance, and move on to the next one. The idea is that he always wanted people to relate to each other inside the exhibition, too. I think this is another great way of interpreting that title, that the space of the museum is as much about you seeing his work, but also for you and for others to get together and have a real dialogue.

Alison Stewart: My guests are Nick Cave, the artist, and Naomi Beckwith, chief curator at the Guggenheim. We're talking about Nick's show, solo exhibition, Forothermore. Nick, I'm going to ask you to tell people what a Soundsuit is.

Nick Cave: [chuckles] A Soundsuit. A Soundsuit is really what I considered this suit of armor. This object that conceals one's identity, race, class, forcing you to look at something without judgment. It's always has been this element that has protected me, but then, it has also enlightened me and provided this otherness, forcing you to look at something. How do you come up to something that is unfamiliar, and open up that space of acceptance, based around beauty, adornment, and opulence, in this grand way?

Alison Stewart: They are large, there's different materials. One is covered entirely with buttons. One is in flowers, sequined boots. There's one that's sock monkeys, and they're almost totem-like, in some ways. They reminded me, in the way they're placed, a little bit like totems. I thought that was something that I really responded to, being almost in a forest of these suits, as I walked through. When you think about the suits, Naomi, how do you think about them?

How would you want people to-- What questions would you like them to ask themselves as they're watching, and looking at these suits?

Naomi Beckwith: Well, first of all, when I first saw the suits, I was just blown away. They were like the Sentinels standing guard in the galleries, when I first saw them, I think at the Studio Museum, some 15 years ago or so. I always want people to think about them in relationship to their own body, both inside and out. If you're outside the Soundsuit, you're looking at something that's slightly bigger than yourself. Something that's, as Nick said, slightly alien. You're wondering, "What is this? How can I approach it? Can we be friends?"

I think what's really brilliant about the Soundsuits is that they're made to be performed in. They're not just sculptures, they are costumes, they adorn them, they are armors, as Nick said. You can get inside these things. The other thing I always want people to do is activate their imagination, and imagine what would it be like to be inside this, to be-- I don't know, covered with this, [unintelligible 00:16:23] with it? Can you move in it? What would you do if you were inside a Soundsuit?

Alison Stewart: The movement and sound are really important, too. You've talked about how music and clubs, they were very important to helping save your life, your soul. What do you like to listen to when you are making?

Nick Cave: In the studio, in terms of music, it varies, but it always starts out with Shirley Horn, Here's To Life CD. Then we move into classical. This is until noon, and then, in the afternoon, with my assistants, everyone gets a day where we play whatever that person wants us to listen to. It varies, which is very interesting, and really creates a nice studio dynamic.

Naomi Beckwith: What do you play on your day, Nick?

Nick Cave: On my day, it could go anywhere. Well, it's always Shirley Horn, classical, then it could go into George Clinton. It could go into Funk, it could go into House music, it could go into Beyonce, Janet Jackson. It depends on what the mood is. Sometimes, it's really soft jazz, and I'm just in a reflective mode. I try to keep it very open, because I'm interested in what the young studio assistants are also listening to, when being like, "Oh, this is interesting. Who is this?"

Alison Stewart: I wanted to ask you about your work in Times Square, Nick. When you think about public art, what do you think is its role in our culture?

Nick Cave: When I think about public art, I think about accessibility, that the people have access to it. To know that that piece is our minute forever, will live there forever, is everything to me. At the end of the day, I think about, "Oh, my god, this is, at the end of the day, what I strive to reach." It's a place where it is accessible.

Alison Stewart: That was my interview with artist Nick Cave, and Guggenheim Deputy Director and Chief Curator Naomi Beckwith. The exhibition Nick Cave, Forothermore, runs at the Guggenheim through April 10th. That is All Of It for today. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you. I appreciate you listening, and I will meet you back here tomorrow.

[music]

 

Copyright © 2023 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.