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NYC's Next Mayor? Economy & Equity: Shaun Donovan
![Shaun Donovan speaks during a virtual announcement of his candidacy for the 2021 New York City mayoral campaign](https://media.wnyc.org/i/800/0/l/85/2020/12/AP20343692297449.jpg)
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Shaun Donovan, 2021 mayoral hopeful, President Obama's former budget director and a former official in Bloomberg's mayoral administration, talks about his plans for the City's economy, both in recovering from the pandemic losses and in addressing pre-existing inequality.
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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now, we continue our month of May round of interviews with the New York City Democratic primary candidates for mayor. Our theme this round is Economic Recovery Meets Economic Justice. We know that any new mayor will have to guide the comeback from COVID after so many hundreds of thousands of jobs were lost. We also know the economic devastation was not spread evenly across the board in the city, and we know that fighting economic inequality was how Mayor de Blasio got elected eight years ago, and yet that work already had many miles yet to go even before the pandemic.
Economic Recovery Meets Economic Justice, our theme this month. We'll also touch on a few campaign news items. With us today on this, candidate Shaun Donovan, best known for his positions as President Obama's housing and urban development secretary, and before that, Mayor Bloomberg's commissioner for housing. Secretary Donovan, thanks for coming on again. Welcome back to WNYC.
Shaun Donovan: It's so great to be back with you, Brian. Thanks for having me.
Brian Lehrer: Right to the theme of our main topic this month, how does your experience as housing secretary at the federal level and the similar job at the city level inform your approach to fighting inequality which has so much to do with housing?
Shaun Donovan: Well, Brian, I've learned over and over again leading through crisis, whether it was the crisis we faced after 9/11 here in the city or when the mortgage crisis came and destroyed half of Black and brown wealth in the country or after Sandy, where low-income minority communities were the hardest hit by natural disaster, we saw that in Katrina too.
The lesson I've learned is that those who are most vulnerable before the crisis hits are always hurt the worst by it, so you have to lead in a moment like this where we are starting to rebuild from the COVID crisis by ensuring, whether it's with vaccines, that they get quickly to the folks who are most vulnerable, but also economically, that you have to focus the recovery on them.
Brian, going even farther back, my first work as a lifelong New Yorker was helping to rebuild the South Bronx, Central Brooklyn from the devastation of the 1970s and '80s. It's not just my citywide and national experience, but it's that local experience of learning how to work with community leaders, with nonprofits on the ground to make sure that help actually gets to the people who need it most. That's often the most challenging thing, especially at this moment when we have billions of dollars available from national recovery programs, but they have to reach those who need the most, and I have unique experience in doing that.
Brian Lehrer: At the end of the Bloomberg years, people elected Mayor de Blasio in no small part because they thought housing was becoming more unaffordable. Did some of the things that you did with Mayor Bloomberg work and others not work so well as you look back?
Shaun Donovan: Well, the first thing I would say is, we now have more homeless people in this city, Brian, than any time since the depression. The number of individuals sleeping on our streets and in shelter has doubled under Mayor de Blasio. We made a lot of progress. We cut the number of folks, individuals sleeping on our streets and in shelter, by almost a third when I was housing commissioner in the city. Then I went on to lead the national strategy that dramatically reduced homelessness around the country too. We actually ended veteran homelessness in 80 cities.
I would say, first of all, that is a huge lesson that we have to learn right now. I'm really the only candidate who has worked on homelessness at that scale and made real progress on it. What I've learned is that if you think you're going to solve homelessness just with shelter, you're going to fail, and that's the problem that we're seeing right now. Instead what we need is a strategy that really understands homelessness is more than just a roof over your head. It's really attacking the economic challenges that families are facing right now to keep them in their homes, and it's also the mental health and the substance abuse, the criminal justice interaction that so many of these individuals have.
What we really have to do is make sure every time someone leaves Rikers, every time someone leaves the mental health ward of one of our public hospitals, we're directing them immediately to what's called supportive housing, that's permanent housing that has services on-site. That's what breaks the cycle of homelessness, and yet we haven't done that these last eight years, and that it's a lesson that I learned from all my work that we should absolutely be putting in place now to end this crisis of homelessness.
Brian Lehrer: Now, you were in the news this month for estimating to The New York Times editorial board that the average selling price of a home in Brooklyn is $100,000 when it's really $900,000. Candidate Ray McGuire way underestimated it at about the same level that you said. I asked him about it last week. How could someone with your housing experience underestimate the cost of a home in Brooklyn by that much?
Shaun Donovan: Brian, the honest truth is I misheard the question. I thought it was about the way we assess homes for property taxes, they're way undervalued and inequitable in this city. I made a mistake, frankly. Look, I understand why that answer got attention, because it's exactly what I said a moment ago, we have more homelessness in this city right now than any time since the depression. We had a poll out last week, as you know, that said, "Housing and homelessness is the number one issue for New Yorkers." As a kid growing up in this city, I saw the same thing, homelessness exploding on our streets, and that's exactly why, Brian, I've spent my entire career working on these issues.
I know that we need someone at this moment in New York who really understands and has spent their career solving issues around housing and homelessness to be able to-- as you said, not just have a recovery, not just build back but to make sure that those who are the most vulnerable, we are leading with them in this crisis. Otherwise, we're going to be dealing with it for decades to the deep, deep damage that's been done particularly to our most vulnerable New Yorkers by this crisis.
Brian Lehrer: You thought The Times was asking about assessment, which is what property taxes are based on. What is the average assessment in Brooklyn? I'd have to look it up after the show myself, but how much less than the average price of a home do you think it is?
Shaun Donovan: Well, it's dramatically less, it's actually close to $100,000. I've been looking at those numbers earlier in the day. Here's the problem with property taxes, Brian, is it is the most regressive unequal tax system we have in New York. Not only do renters pay a dramatically higher share of their income than homeowners but the imbalance between different homeowners across the city is intense where Black and brown homeowners in Staten Island and other communities are assessed at a far higher share of the actual value of their homes, and that's something that needs to be fixed.
When I was housing commissioner, this is another thing during my record as housing commissioner in the city, we went to Albany, and I negotiated significant improvements to our property tax system to get more affordable housing at that time. We really do need to take on our property tax system to make it more fair.
Brian Lehrer: New York City Democratic primary mayoral hopeful Shaun Donovan with us as we continue our May round of candidate interviews. Andrew Yang is scheduled for Wednesday. Let me get your take Secretary Donovan on something in the news today. Mayor de Blasio announced no remote option for students in the public schools this fall. I think it's fair to say nobody liked the hybrid system, but some families had wanted an all-remote option for their kids if they didn't feel safe yet this September based on pandemic conditions at that time an all-remote option. Do you agree with the mayor's decision?
Shaun Donovan: Well, Brian, I do think it's important we get kids back into school. This goes to exactly your question earlier about how we recover in a way that's equitable. The fact that we couldn't open our schools in September and the stopping and starting that we've seen in so many schools this school year has had an impact on every child. It's been a brutal year of loss for all of our children but especially for those who, whether you don't have access to the technology, you don't have fast enough broadband at home, for our second language learners and others, it has taken what were big inequalities in our school system and made them even deeper.
I think it's important that we try to get our kids back into school to close those gaps and make our school system fairer and more equal. Part of what I would say about that, it's not just reopening, it's how we reopen. I like to say we're running the campaign of ideas. I have the most comprehensive detailed education plan of any of the candidates according to The New York Times. What I would say about that is we need to reopen in a way that really encourages catching up. One of the things I would do is, it's called an Education Recovery Corps. I would bring young people, CUNY students, recent graduates, hopefully the teachers of the future. Let's put them side by side by our teachers in the classroom to help not just on academic recovery but social and emotional recovery as well. It's one of the many ideas I have about how we recover in an equitable way in our school system, but I do think reopening and getting kids back in school is going to be an important part of academic recovery but also the mental health, the social devastation that we've seen particularly in the communities that were hardest hit.
Brian Lehrer: The teacher's union and some principals say they're going to need more physical space, like more buildings, and they're going to need more teachers with the CDC guidelines that still call for students to be three feet apart in classrooms in the lower grades and six feet apart for social distancing in middle and high school. Therefore, you're going to need smaller classes, therefore you're going to need more classrooms, therefore you're going to need more teachers. What do you think about that?
Shaun Donovan: This is part of the reason that I suggested my Education Recovery Corps to really make sure we have enough people in the classrooms. We should be looking particularly with the help of federal aid that has been passed to increasing the number of teachers, to hiring more.
Here's the other thing, Brian, we could have done this this past September. We could have opened our schools if we'd really thought about our communities as classrooms. What I mean by that is let's think creatively about outdoor spaces, in warm weather, adjacent to schools. Let's look at our YMCAs and our gyms, our public libraries. Let's think about ways to creatively use our communities as classrooms to ensure that we have adequate space in the way that you're asking about, Brian.
Those are the kinds of ideas, we need an innovative approach. At this moment, we're kind of all hands on deck. If we really build the partnerships, if we bring everybody together, we could do that. We could have done that this past September, but unfortunately, the mayor was not focused enough on working closely with parents and teachers and principals to deal with those issues to get us ready to reopen, but we should absolutely do that for this September.
Brian Lehrer: One other thing on this, in the mayoral debate the other week, I asked if the eight of you in the debate would support mandatory vaccinations for all students for whose ages vaccines have been fully authorized, not just for emergency use but full authorization, and you were one of five I believe who raised your hand to say yes, the students should have to be vaccinated, but when I asked what about teachers and staff, all your hands went down, why was that in your case?
Shaun Donovan: First of all, just like we do for many different vaccines, my own children have been required to have vaccines. I think that's something that is important and getting an education is absolutely critical for every one of our children. That's why I believe we should ensure that students are vaccinated. With teachers, what we've seen is that whether because of age or certain other health concerns, I think we could have exceptions for teachers, but obviously, that's a choice.
We're going to have to get teachers back in the classroom without a mandatory option. We're going to hire teachers, and we're going to require that teachers be in the classroom teaching. Then it's going to be up to teachers whether they stay in those jobs, or if they feel very strongly about not getting vaccinated, that's a choice they can make, but it means they're not going to be able to teach this coming school year.
Brian Lehrer: You draw that line. Last thing on bringing the economy back, what do you see as the hardest sector of the economy to bring back in general? What do you see as the next mayor's role in that as opposed to letting the market for things like tourism and performing arts simply recover on its own as the virus hopefully keeps receding and things keep reopening?
Shaun Donovan: Well, Brian, we need to come at this in many different ways. There is no single silver bullet, and I think there are many challenges. This is why we need a mayor who has been through and been tested again and again in crisis, the way that that I have. I released a really comprehensive tourism plan this past Friday. Arts and culture is going to be critically important to bring back New Yorkers but also to bring back our tourists. As a kid who grew up in this city, Brian, I'll never forget the I love New York Campaign and what that meant to a city that was struggling.
I propose that we have a new I Love New York Campaign called I Still Love New York. That would be part of making sure every New Yorker and everyone around the world knows that the city is open, that we're getting our theaters, our performance spaces back open. I think that really ties to what I see as the biggest challenge, which is our small businesses and our storefronts.
As I said earlier, I've seen it over and over again in crisis that, if you're a small immigrant-owned business, a restaurant or a store, dealing with the bureaucracy and the red tape that we so often have in city government just to get the help you deserve, to be able to pay your back rent. We're going to have to really partner with our nonprofits, our community organizations, we're going to have to bring everyone together because so often what we find is the message doesn't matter in crisis if you don't have a trusted messenger to be able to work with these small businesses, our storefronts, to get them open again.
I think we've got a real chance at this moment where we're starting to feel hope in this city where it's starting-- our cases are coming down quickly. This is a real chance to take this moment to bring the city alive again. I have a proposal where we would fill vacant storefronts with artists, with performers, with pop-up restaurants. That's going to really help send a message to New Yorkers and the world that we're back. At the same time, what I would say is we do need to ensure in the longer term that we're making it easier for small businesses.
Unfortunately the last eight years, we've kind of regulated and taxed our way to recovery is what the current mayor thinks as opposed to really bringing a strategy that would encourage those small businesses, get them the financing that they need through an entrepreneurship financing fund. Cut red tape, stop with the fines, simplify through one website how you work with eight different city agencies. All of that has to happen longer term if we're not just going to have our small businesses survive but actually thrive.
Brian Lehrer: New York City mayoral hopeful Shaun Donovan, the former Bloomberg's housing commissioner and Obama's secretary of housing and urban development. Thank you so much for joining us again. We really appreciate how accessible you've been and really just about all the candidates throughout this period. Thank you for your third appearance on the show during the campaign.
Shaun Donovan: My pleasure, Brian. Keep having me back.
Brian Lehrer: Thank you. Andrew Yang coming up for our next candidate interview on Wednesday.
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