Politics, and the Life of a Broadcast Trailblazer

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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Have you been listening to Matt Katz's WNYC podcast series called Inconceivable Truth about the bombshell revelation he learned from one of those DNA tests that people take and some shocking American history that he brings into it as context? We'll do the talk show version with Matt today, including any of your similar stories of discovering who one of your biological parents actually was. Also today, our transportation reporter, Stephen Nessen, on a few developing New York area transportation stories. The MTA has now set the exact start date for congestion pricing, plus a new discount for some Metro North and LIRR riders that goes with it, and something we didn't see right away in the New York State budget, we didn't mention it in our breakdown of the budget, that experiment with one free New York City bus route in each borough. Sorry, they took that away, and we'll explain why.

We begin with Monday morning politics. This might make you cheer or it might make you cringe, but on Friday's Howard Stern Show of all places, President Biden seemed to commit for the first time-- well, maybe commit is too strong a word, to debate Donald Trump in their election campaign this fall. Here it is. Don't blink or you'll miss it. Howard Stern speaks first.

Howard Stern: Can I tell you what fantasy I had? I don't know if you're going to debate your opponent.

President Biden: I am, somewhere, I don't know when. I'm happy to debate him.

Brian Lehrer: Happy to debate him if you didn't catch it. Biden said, “Somewhere, I don't know when, but I'm happy to debate him.” Remember, it was Trump who refused to debate any of his Republican opponents in the primaries, which are now basically over, and Trump who pulled out of one of the debates in 2020 against Biden. We'll see if that happens again. On the record, at least, it's been Trump saying, “Anytime, anywhere,” he used those words last week and Biden more reluctant to commit.

Not everyone who supports Biden or democracy thinks it's a good idea. Former George Bush speechwriter, David Frum, you know him? An anti-Trump Republican in recent years wrote an Atlantic Magazine article just last week before Biden said this on Howard Stern. Headline, Why Biden Should Not Debate Trump. Sub-headline, the networks want their show, but to give the challenger equal status on the TV stage would be a dire normalization of his attempted coup. So let's discuss.

Should this year be an exception to the convention of head-to-head presidential debates? 212-433-WNYC, if you have an opinion on that, 212-433-9692. We'll talk about that and more, including something funny and something not so funny from the White House Correspondents Dinner over the weekend with Susan Page, who was there. Susan, get ready to reveal what got the biggest laugh out of you.

Susan Page, Washington bureau chief for USA Today. Among many other things, she moderated the Kamala Harris-Mike Pence vice presidential debate in 2020. I'll just say any debate moderator these days does so at their own risk. We'll actually talk to Susan in two parts today. First, this Monday morning politics conversation, then we'll talk about her new book, The Rulebreaker: The Life and Times of Barbara Walters. Susan, always good to have you. Welcome back to WNYC.

Susan Page: Hey, Brian, it's great to be back with you.

Brian Lehrer: I'll ask you about moderating debates like this as we go, but does that count as a commitment by Biden to debate Donald Trump, what Biden barely said on Howard Stern?

Susan Page: Absolutely. That's a commitment. If he doesn't debate, that means he's breaking that commitment.

Brian Lehrer: Simple enough.

Susan Page: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: It's a change because a few months ago, Biden said it depends on Trump's behavior. I think that was a reference to one of the debates in 2020 when Trump wouldn't play by the rules and kept interrupting and shouting over Biden and the moderator, Chris Wallace from Fox News. Biden couldn't know Trump's debating behavior this year in advance, so should we not take that Biden comment too literally, or maybe now it's just moot?

Susan Page: It is 100% true that Donald Trump didn't play by the rules of that debate. It was frustrating for Chris Wallace, it was frustrating for Joe Biden, but how did that election turn out after that debate? Joe Biden won it, right?

Brian Lehrer: I thought it was stolen from-- never mind.

Susan Page: Debates are a chance for voters to look at the two candidates and to make up their own minds, and they're not necessarily scoring debating points like if you're on a college debating team. They're looking at two contenders to be president and what they think of them. I do think, since we've had a consistent situation-- The Constitution doesn't require anybody to debate, but we've had debates since 1976. I think it would be inappropriate for a candidate from a major party for president to refuse to debate.

Brian Lehrer: What's your best understanding of the Biden campaign's feeling about televised debates this year? Is there a fear of looking old compared to Trump or any other electants?

Susan Page: Yes. There's a fear of gas because whether you think it's damaging or endearing, Joe Biden sometimes has verbal gas. Also, Donald Trump is unpredictable in these settings and can be pretty aggressive. Remember when he stalked Hillary Clinton around the stage and she didn't seem entirely sure how to handle that? That's a risk with Donald Trump and that's not the situation that necessarily shows President Biden at his best, so there has been nervousness about debates. I don't know if we'll have three debates, which is what the Commission on Presidential Debates has called for. That's been pretty much the standard number, but I do think we're going to have one debate and I think that is a good thing for democracy.

Brian Lehrer: We should say that Biden's statement came shortly after a consortium of 12 news organizations released a letter urging Biden and Trump to debate because they say it is good for democracy. The 12 included most of the major TV networks including both Fox and MSNBC, plus NPR and PBS, the Associated Press, and others. I'll read a couple of lines for listeners who aren’t aware of this.

Susan Page: Also USA Today.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, you were in that?

Susan Page: USA Today signed that letter too. Yes.

Brian Lehrer: There you go. You're on the record it's your official position. Your group said, "If there is one thing Americans can agree on during this polarized time, it is that the stakes of this election are exceptionally high. Amidst that backdrop, there is simply no substitute for the candidates debating with each other and before the American people their visions for the future of our nation." We'll get to David Frum's objection and see what callers think. But what about the Trump camp here, behind the scenes as far as you can tell, actually either eager to debate or also quietly deciding whether to participate? Because we know they complained about some of the rules in 2020 and complained about moderators generally.

Susan Page: Yes, they had some complaints. One on the mic turned out to actually have some legitimacy, and of course, his decision to pull out of a debate eliminated a debate last time that he then decided he wanted to participate in. This time around--

Brian Lehrer: Can I jump in on that? Was that because, do I remember correctly, he tested positive for COVID, but wouldn't do it remotely? They wanted to change it to a remote debate and he insisted that it be in person, even though he had COVID. Am I remembering that right?

Susan Page: Well, I don't remember whether he had COVID, but they decided, the Commission on Presidential Debates decided that debates should be held remotely because of COVID, because of the threat of COVID.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, because of COVID generally. Yes.

Susan Page: Yes. Trump said he wouldn't participate and the Commission pretty quickly said, “Okay, forget it.” I think that Trump then had second thoughts about it but that was done. You may not have noticed this, Brian, but Trump has a lot of self-confidence.

Brian Lehrer: Really?

Susan Page: He believes he will eviscerate Joe Biden in a one-on-one confrontation, and I think his campaign also thinks that it will give them a chance to portray Biden as not up to the job for another four years. I've heard of no real reluctance on the Trump camp to having debates.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, Democrats, Republicans, independents, anyone else, do you think Trump and Biden should debate? Why or why not? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Call or text as our first caller question of this week. Do any of you agree with David Frum's argument in The Atlantic that to give Trump "Equal status on a TV stage would be a dire normalization of his attempted coup?" If you agree with that, 212-433-WNYC, or not agree with that, 212-433-96- -92, or maybe you think Trump should decline for whatever reason, or do you more agree with the media consortium letter, which said there's simply no substitute for the candidates debating with each other and before the American people their visions for the future of our nation. 212-433-9692, call or text and of course, any questions welcome for Susan Page, Washington Bureau Chief for USA Today who has also been a moderator, including of the Pence-Harris debate in 2020.

I'll ask you about that in a minute. I will say to remind our listeners that debates aren't mandatory. Usually, candidates refusing to debate are the ones with big leads and they figure why take the risk? If they're cruising to an election victory, all they could do is come out worse for it if they debate. That's why Trump turned down all the Republican primary debates. Andrew Cuomo famously ducked debates or scheduled them for the last minute when it wouldn't matter. Do you know this story and listeners, do you?

I'm the last person to denigrate radio, right? That would not be in my interest. In his last re-election in 2018, Cuomo refused and refused to debate his Republican opponent and then finally agreed with only one-day’s notice, very close to the election, to a radio-only debate at eight o'clock on a Saturday morning. Candidates will often duck debates to play it safe, but Biden's re-election is not at all safe right now. It must be for other reasons, Susan, I guess, right?

Susan Page: Well, to be clear, it's not like the Biden campaign or the White House put out an official statement saying, “We're eager to debate.” It's that Howard Stern asked Joe Biden a question and he said, “Yes, I am.” Now I think that it is hard for-- I think it's one thing for a governor or a Senate candidate or for a House candidate or for a candidate for mayor to duck debates, but I think it's another thing for presidents to duck debates. They can put demands, there can be negotiations, it's always possible we'll have an election without a debate, but I think there is now an expectation there will be a debate.

Brian, just to say, it's more important now than it's ever been, because there is less necessity now for these candidates to submit to independent questioning in any other forum. Candidates have a million ways to communicate with voters that do not include sitting down for interviews with NPR reporters or USA Today reporters or famously, lately, New York Times reporters. A debate is, in this time, maybe the one chance to see the candidates side by side, forced to answer questions, or at least forced to hear questions, they don't always answer them, forced to hear questions from an independent voice, an independent journalistic voice. I think it is more imperative now than it's been in the past to have these debates.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, a lot of our texts, at least, are taking the David Frum position, saying, “I agree with Frum,” naming him in a number of cases. Somebody else writes, “I am okay skipping the TV debates this year. If anyone expects Trump to behave any differently, then they will be sadly disappointed.” I'm curious, Susan, if the Biden campaign, and maybe it's moot, like you say, he's committed there with Howard Stern, but have they had any surrogates out there making the David Frum argument that to debate Trump would be to normalize an authoritarian coup plotter? Rather than democracy demands a debate, the usual assumption, this time democracy demands no debate?

Susan Page: I understand the point about dire normalization, but think about this. Donald Trump is not some fringe candidate from a third party making a long shot campaign for the presidency. He is a former president who will be nominated by one of our two major parties and at the moment is running at least even and sometimes ahead of the incumbent president. The normalization, I think we are a little past that point. We're at the point where we're looking at an election where it is entirely possible that Donald Trump will win that. Don't you want to have a chance to see him speak, address questions, stand side by side with his opponent and let Americans make their own decision?

Brian Lehrer: Excuse me. Norm in Nassau County, Lake Success, you're on WNYC. Hi, Norm.

Norm: Yes, hi, Brian. I love your show and I love David Frum, I read him all the time, but I disagree with him. I think Biden has to debate Trump because it's a terrible president if he doesn't and look like he is scared and he's trying to hide. But I do think he's probably going to lose the debate or either draw because he has horrible communication skills. He looks incredibly old and frail, even though there's only three years difference between Biden and Trump. He looks very elderly and frail and he's a terrible debater. Would you agree to coach Biden, to prepare him, Brian, because I really have no faith in Biden at all, even though I'm going to vote for him?

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for your faith in me, but no, I do not coach political candidates on how to do in their debates. I moderate debates at times. I've moderated many New York City mayoral debates on both radio and as a co-moderator on television, but no, I don't participate in helping one side or the other, but thank you for that. Susan, well, let's do a couple of more calls and then we'll talk about your experience moderating Pence versus Harris. How about Monique in Tarrytown? You're on WNYC. Hi, Monique.

Monique: Hi, good morning. Thank you for taking the call. My question is the timing of the debate. If for any reason the candidates don't do very well and don't come off as being able to be-- is there any chance to change candidates or are we just set is what we have?

Brian Lehrer: Oh, well, that's an interesting question, but that would have been the primary debates. Yes, that's an interesting concept, Susan. I don't want to linger on it too long for time, but have Biden and Trump debate each other as a final way for the people in their own parties to assess whether they should be the nominee. Interesting concept anyway.

Susan Page: Monique, I've heard other voters express a desire to have a different candidate on one side or the other, but I think that ship has sailed. Under our system, it's the convention delegates who will choose the candidate and Biden and Trump have a very firm hold on their two partisan conventions. I would think even if there are some with trepidation in each party about their nominee, this is pretty set.

Brian Lehrer: Here's one who agrees with David Frum. Rita in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Rita. Do I have that right?

Rita: Yes, you do. Hi Brian. Thank you for taking my call. I don't think that a debate between Biden and Trump is a great idea. I think it adds legitimacy to a very bad president, a failed president, and a person who doesn't follow the rules. I heard your guest say that this is not a college debate, but from what I've seen from the past debates with Trump as a debater, he doesn't answer the questions and he spends more time trying to intimidate people across the stage as he tried to do to Hillary Clinton.

I think also as an audience, we are so connected to perception. There's only a four-year difference between President Biden and President Trump, and in my opinion, yes, Biden may look frail to some people, but he is actually healthier. He can see his toes, he can ride a bike, he can go up and down the steps without breaking a sweat. It's only because Donald Trump is a loud mouth who is very aggressive that we see him as some strong man. There’s a saying that perception travels around the world before truth even gets out of bed.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, a lie travels around the world before truth even gets out of bed.

Rita: Or a lie, something like that.

Brian Lehrer: Would you be worried about what the first caller brought up, a widespread perception that Biden was afraid to debate, which would hurt him more than whatever happens in the debate?

Rita: No, because I don't think that we as voters, unfortunately, are very connected to the facts, the truth. We're not doing our research. This is like watching television. This is like watching a sitcom or a weekly, and we're really not paying attention to the things that really matter, so no.

Brian Lehrer: Rita, thank you very much. I don't give advice as a radio host to presidential candidates, but you probably heard, Susan, that Howard Stern did in the context of asking Biden. He didn't even really ask Biden if he would debate. Biden inserted it there- -and he might have even stumbled into it. I don't know. Kind of sounded like that. What Stern was setting up was advice to Biden if he debates, which is just to keep saying over and over again, "I want you to find 11,000 votes", citing that Trump apparent interference with the Georgia vote counting process. That was Howard Stern's advice to Biden. Any idea what the actual Biden camp advice will be?

Susan Page: Well, we've heard several of your callers, Norm and Rita and others, who are Biden's supporters expressing concern about Biden's age and appearance on stage, but remember the State of the Union address? He was pretty vigorous there, he gave a speech, he had an energetic byplay with hecklers from Congress. On Saturday night at the White House Correspondents Dinner, he gave a different kind of speech. He gave a speech that was initially humorous and then had a serious close. He did pretty well there and it was late at night, by the time his turn up to speak came, so we'll see how Biden does.

The other thing I would say is let's not underestimate voters who are able to bring their independent judgment about human beings, and about the policies that matter to them, and the characteristics they care most about when they watch debates. Debates get big audiences. They get audiences of people who are firmly setting their views, but they also get an audience that includes people who don't pay much attention to politics. At that point, close to the day of election, close to the day they're going to vote, they tune in to take a look. That strikes me as so important.

One thing that Trump's behavior raises, I think, is the imperative for the moderator to keep control of the debate. That's something that we, as journalists, as moderators have really struggled with in the Trumpian era. Really, I think whoever the moderators turn out to be, need to go in with a strategy to try to make the debate more valuable than some of the ones in the past have been.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Do you want to do a little oral history of your own here? You moderated the Kamala Harris-Mike Pence debate in 2020, a tame affair compared to the Biden-Trump made events but even your debate wasn't without Pence really often refusing to stick to the time limit. What was that experience like for you?

Susan Page: Well, it was pretty frustrating. Maybe I should have expected it. It was very Trumpian of Pence. Pence is a very courtly kind of guy, so I was surprised when he just ignored the time limits and my efforts to rein him in. At one point, I scolded him for not obeying the rules that were negotiated by his own team. He didn't seem to care about that either. It was frustrating because he had ignored the time limits and also because he and to some degree, Kamala Harris, although I think that Pence was more guilty of this, didn't address the question I'd ask. That was frustrating as well.

Brian, one thing, I tried to think about this before the debate and after the debate is, was it worthwhile for voters who tuned in. I think it was. I think it gave them a chance to see these two figures, who one of them would be the vice president to somebody who was of an historic age for a president, so therefore, with some possibility of becoming president themselves. They got a chance to look at them and see what they thought. Frustrating yes, but I thought also of some value.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Listener writes, "Maybe rather than a debate, they have a physical fitness contest, bike ride, weightlifting, et cetera, et cetera." Another listener writes, "The debates need moderators who act like sensible parents." To that and your experience, you and Chris Wallace, and Jim Lehrer from PBS, when he was doing it in previous cycles, have all been criticized for not asking pointed follow-up questions when a candidate evades a question. Like you just said, they were both doing to some degree or said something that isn't true.

On the other hand, CNN's Candy Crowley came under withering attack from the right after she did correct Mitt Romney in a debate against President Obama in the 2012 election cycle. Maybe some of our listeners remember that. Megyn Kelly's whole career changed, I think it's fair to say, after Trump trashed her for asking him a tough question about his treatment of women in a Fox News debate in 2016. Even a Fox News host like Megyn Kelly wasn't immune. Kaitlan Collins on CNN, very well respected, got criticized more from the left for her recent Trump town hall despite her best efforts to combine listening and challenging. Do you think people in the news media even want this job right now?

Susan Page: I just got to say, grateful I'm still employed here years later after moderating that debate. Yes, believe me, anyone in journalism would be delighted to be a moderator at a debate because it's an honor and it's a privilege and it's an opportunity to do the best job you can. I was criticized for not asking more follow-up questions. Here was my thinking. You can think I'm right or wrong, but there was a deliberate decision on my part because it wasn't-- a debate is not an interview. An interview with a presidential candidate, you want them to say something new, something spontaneous, you want to catch them. Gotcha is an excellent question if you're interviewing a presidential candidate. There's an aggressiveness to an interview.

A debate is different. A debate is a chance for voters to tune in and assess these two candidates. That involved, I thought, less gotcha and more-- gives them a chance to talk ideally within the time limits. Also, ask them not about, will they change their position by one degree on Middle East policy, but rather explain their Middle East policy because who's your audience? Your audience are voters who are going to be making a big decision, so do the things that would be useful to them.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, did Barbara Walters ever moderate a presidential debate?

Susan Page: Yes, they did debates a little differently then. They had a moderator and then three journalists posing the questions. I believe three times she was in one role or the other.

Brian Lehrer: We'll continue in a minute with Susan Page, Washington bureau chief for USA Today. We'll get her quick take on the White House Correspondents Dinner, which she attended Saturday night. Listeners, as we move on from talking about debates, did you watch it? Did you think Colin Jost was funny? What about Biden? What about the serious side of the usually comical affair, which we will touch on? 212-433-WNYC as we pivot now to any reactions you had on the serious side or the funny side to watching the White House Correspondents Dinner, or maybe you watched excerpts on YouTube afterwards or whatever. Then we'll get to Susan's book, The Rulebreaker, about TV journalist Barbara Walters. Stay with us.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We continue with Susan Page, Washington bureau chief for USA Today. We'll get her quick take on the White House Correspondents Dinner, which she attended Saturday night. Listeners, did you watch it? Did you think Colin Jost was funny out of his usual role of Weekend Update host on Saturday Night Live? What about Biden? What about the serious side of the usually comical affair? 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692, call or text, and then we'll get to Susan's book, The Rulebreaker, about TV journalist Barbara Walters.

Susan, I watched on Saturday night and I thought there was something genuinely uncomfortable this year. Colin Jost, who I love and usually he's so smooth, seemed a little nervous. The host, I think it was NBC's Kelly O'Donnell had to make an excuse at the beginning about, it's okay to be funny in tough times. I imagine that was a reference to all the troubles in Israel and Gaza, including the killing of many journalists. There was this whole undercurrent of foreboding for a free press itself if Trump gets elected. You've attended many of these. Did it feel different in the room?

Susan Page: About the dark views, Brian, you should have had a glass of wine as you were watching C-SPAN on Saturday night, because we certainly were in the room. Actually, I've gone to, I cannot tell you how many of these. Sometimes there's not much serious going on, but often this dinner has been held at a time when we've been-- we're at war in Iraq, or after the crisis of 9/11 or during-- This is a dinner of news people in a town where the news doesn't ever really stop, so no.

I did not think the tone was dramatically different from previous ones. We do have this election going on and Trump has been very critical of the press, called us the enemy of the people. Trump himself as president never chose to attend this dinner of the journalists who cover him every day. Certainly, those are layers, but I thought it was like most of these dinners and that it was too long. It was pretty cozy, not entirely comfortable with that. It was a little self-congratulatory, but it was also kind of fun.

Brian Lehrer: Here is Colin Jost with one laugh line that reflects, I think, the foreboding about a Trump reelection and a free press.

Colin Jost: I am honored to be here hosting what is, according to swing state polls, the final White House Correspondents Dinner.

Brian Lehrer: Here's Biden getting a laugh at the expense of The New York Times.

President Biden: The New York Times issued a statement blasting me for "active and effectively avoiding independent journalists." Hey, if that's what it takes to get The New York Times to say I’m active and effective, I'm for it.

Brian Lehrer: Susan, he got a good laugh there, but there is apparently some real tension between Biden and The Times for people who think it's only between The Times and Republicans. Can you sum it up in a line or so?

Susan Page: Well, President Biden has not given The New York Times an interview as president. That's at odds with previous presidents, and The Times would like to have an interview. There's also the White House's various complaints about Times coverage that they say is unfair. That is something we hear from most White Houses. I would just note that The Times for many years has refused to attend this dinner, and other press dinners in Washington because they think the coziness is unseemly.

There was only one or two Times people in the room to hear the joke at their expense, but everybody in the room understands that there is some tension there between the Biden White House and The New York Times.

Brian Lehrer: You know how we like to put things in historical context on this show when we can, Susan, well, here is Richard in Yonkers who says he called in when Colbert roasted Bush at one of these dinners in 2007. Richard, you're on WNYC. Hello, again.

Richard: Hi, Brian. Thank you for taking my call. Yes, I was on the show in 2007. You had Peter Dow on talking about George Bush’s first--

Brian Lehrer: What a memory. You remembered who the guest was.

Richard: Well, I happen to know Peter Dow's parents, so I would never forget that. Anyway, I thought President Biden was rather funny. I always look for the twinkle in his eye. He's more on the ball than people give him credit for it. Colin Jost on the other hand, you would expect a smooth delivery. While a lot of his lines were funny, it was painful to watch and pause between each line to see what the audience reaction was going to be. It's not really the way you do stand up. One other thing I want to thank you for, Brian, I'm the person who wrote in about Mike Pence being the Uriah Heep of politics. I want to thank you for reading that on the air.

Brian Lehrer: I guess we'll leave it to listeners’ quick googling to remind yourself who Uriah Heep was and why that might apply. Mina in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Mina.

Mina: Hi, just a few comments. One, I think that the president did a lovely job of skewering. Secondly, I think that Mr. Jost waited a bit. It was almost as if he were on TV and saying, "All right. Let's watch for the applause meter." Then, of course, it could have been I couldn't hear if people were laughing or groaning in the background, which I guess because we had MSNBC on. Last, I want to really send kudos out to Ms. O'Donnell. I think that what she had to say about the White House correspondents, about journalists overall, I think was terrific. Years ago, I did work in the field, and it made me proud of what little I've accomplished while I was there, but just to be part of that. I think that she was terrific. That's all I have to say.

Brian Lehrer: Mina, thank you very much. Was there a line from either of them Saturday night that made you laugh out loud, Susan?

Susan Page: Well, I thought they were both good actually. It's a tough room. It's a big room. There are 2,600 people sitting in it. They've all been drinking all night. Sometimes it's hard for the press to laugh at jokes about itself. The joke that I remember best I think is from-- this was from Colin Jost, I believe, where he said that he wanted to speak to the print journalists in the room, so of course, my ears perked up at that. He said, "You do so much, you hold the powerful to account, you keep our democracy together," and then he paused and he said, "And you're crucial to training the AI programs that will replace you." Maybe that cut a little close to home, but yes, I thought it was pretty funny.

Brian Lehrer: Everybody shuttered when that one got spoken. Before we break and go to your book, there were a few references to campus protests, but not that much to my eye and ear. Serious question before we break. How do the protests seem to be influencing Biden policy or the Biden campaign if at all?

Susan Page: I think it's item of great concern to the White House, and especially to the Biden campaign, these protests. There's every expectation that they're going to-- well, we'll see if they continue when school is out. But these protests have put President Biden in a hard place because everyone is concerned about what's happening in Gaza, the plight of Palestinians there, also about the brutality of the October 7th attacks, what to do about it, how to influence the Israeli government. It's an enormous foreign policy problem, but it's also a domestic political concern that's dividing the Democratic Party and creating big problems for President Biden with younger voters. There was a CNN poll out yesterday that said that 8 in 10 voters under 35 disapprove of the job Biden is doing on the issue of Israel and Hamas and the Gaza Strip. Yes, this is very worrisome, I think, for the White House.

Brian Lehrer: Do you think that's changed at all in any direction since the protest movement moved to encampments on the campuses and calling for divestment from Israel as opposed to the moving protests, which certainly were following Biden around and calling for a ceasefire?

Susan Page: Yes, I think it has because it's created concern among Americans who are concerned about what's happening with Gaza, who look at looming famine in Gaza, but who are uncomfortable with some of the more progressive policies, the debate over DEI programs, the concerns that we see coming up with these encampments--

Brian Lehrer: Oops. Did we just lose Susan's line? I think we're having a problem. Oh, you're back.

Susan Page: Am I back?

Brian Lehrer: Yes, you went on mute on us.

Susan Page: I'm sorry. Yes, it wasn't intentional. I think it's made things more difficult for the White House, for the Biden campaign, also for local law enforcement and for college administrators in figuring out how to respect free speech rights, while also keeping a handle on some of these protests.

Brian Lehrer: We'll continue in a minute with Susan Page and get to her book The Rulebreaker: The Life and Times of Barbara Walters. Stay with us.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC with Susan Page, good enough to be doing double duty with us today, Monday morning politics, which we usually do with various guests to start each week, and with Susan today, even while she's on a book tour. Susan, thank you for that. Some of you know that Susan Page, Washington bureau chief for USA Today has written biographies in recent years of Nancy Pelosi and Barbara Bush. Now comes her latest, The Rulebreaker: The Life and Times of Barbara Walters.

Walters died a couple of years ago at the age of 93. She was a pioneer of being a woman at the top of broadcast journalism, co-host of The Today's Show, then co-hosted The ABC Evening News that started in 1976, then on to 20/20, and then creator of The View, starting in 1997. That's still going strong. That gets top guests like a guy named Barack Obama sitting with Barbara Walters.

Barbara Walters: Do you really think that being on this show with a bunch of women, five women, who never shut up is going to be calming?

Barack Obama: Look, I was trying to find a show that Michelle actually watched.

Brian Lehrer: Walters and Obama. We'll play more clips as we go. Susan, why did you follow up your Barbara Bush and Nancy Pelosi books with one about Barbara Walters?

Susan Page: Well, Brian, let me ask you. You're a famous New York City journalist. Did you know Barbara Walters?

Brian Lehrer: No, I've never met her in person.

Susan Page: I'm sorry to hear that because she was one fascinating person. She broke all these barriers. She had remarkable achievements, but one of the things I found in spending a couple years working on this book is she paid just this enormous price as many groundbreakers do in her personal life. There was no good biography of Barbara Walters, although she wrote a memoir herself that was published in 2008, and I thought that she ought to have one.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, Susan just asked me if I knew Barbara Walters. We never met. Actually, she was never a guest on the show. Anyone who did know Barbara Walters want to call in? Anyone with a memory as a viewer? Anyone who knew her as a friend or an acquaintance or a relative? Anyone with a question for Susan Page? Author now of The Rulebreaker: The Life and Times of Barbara Walters, 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692, call or text. How many glass ceilings did Barbara Walters break?

Susan Page: [laughs] Just every job she had was from the time she was 28-years-old, was a job that women had, as a rule, not had before. Brian, you just made an appeal to listeners who knew Barbara Walters. Let me tell you the incredible reach of The Brian Lehrer Show because like two years ago when I was starting out on the book, or maybe it was a year ago. I was on your show for the Monday News discussion. You mentioned I was working on this book, and then I got a call from one of Barbara Walters's closest friends, someone I had not yet figured out how to reach. She called me and said that she had heard on your show. She says she listens to your show every day. I'm quite sure she's listening today. That was how I reached one of Barbara Walters's very closest friends for an interview. Thank you, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: I knew we played some positive role in the world, I just didn't know until now what it was. Listeners, to be clear, you don't have to have known Barbara Walters or met her to call in. If you have any questions, observations about a career, anything as a viewer, that's good, too. 212-433-WNYC. We're going to get some of the criticisms of her as well as some of the praise, but you want to give us an example, Susan, of the sexism, overt or covert, that she was subjected to?

Susan Page: She was trying to get her first writing job on a CBS morning show that didn't last too long. They hired her and the guy who hired her said he hired her because she had the cutest ass.

Brian Lehrer: That's pretty explicit.

Susan Page: That was right from the start. Let's go two years later when she's a big success and she's done what no woman's done before, which has become co-anchor of an evening network news show. Harry Reasoner first threatens to quit if she gets the job. She got the job anyway and then treated her with such open contempt on the air that the ABC evening news stopped doing two shots, those pictures where you can see one anchor listening to the other, because when they did that, it kept showing Harry Reasoner scowling-

Brian Lehrer: Wow.

Susan Page: -at Barbara Walters as she spoke. It's just one more example-- and a previous breakthrough when she got on the air for the NBC Today's show with Frank McGee as the host, if you remember Frank McGee. He set a rule that she could not speak during an interview until he had asked the first three questions.

Brian Lehrer: Three. I see doing it with a senior person that maybe they get the prerogative of the first question all the time. I've seen that on other shows, but three-- All right. Representation of an underrepresented group is its own virtue. Did she also have a different style or different news judgment than some of her male peers at the top of broadcast journalism, especially early on maybe, that you think added something content-wise for the viewer that they weren't getting before?

Susan Page: Absolutely. To see Barbara Walters only as the first woman this, or the first woman that, I think underestimates her legacy and her impact, because she also brought a different attitude about who was worth interviewing. She wanted to interview presidents and prime ministers, but she also liked interviewing Hollywood actresses and singers and notorious murderers. If they were interesting to her, she figured they were interesting to the audience. She contributed to this blurring of lines and journalism, the blurring between the entertainment world and the political world, for instance. Not everybody thinks that's been entirely positive, but she played a really important part in shaping what it is, all the shows that we watch now, on the morning shows, the network news. She had an impact in redefining what it was they could and should include.

Brian Lehrer: Maybe that's not entirely a good thing. Would it be fair to say that she also helped lead TV news down the road to infotainment? You have her as someone who by age 35 was bridging journalism, entertainment, and promotion, is I think the way you put it, bridging journalism, entertainment, and promotion. How do you see her place on that slippery slope?

Susan Page: I think it probably would've happened without Barbara Walters, but she's the one who brought it to the fore. Agreed. If you want to watch the most serious news shows, you can, but the most powerful news shows, the one with the greatest reach recognize the expansive view that viewers have about what it is they want to hear about. They want to hear about president Biden. They also want to hear about Taylor Swift. That was something that Barbara Walters understood in her DNA.

Her dad had gotten his first job booking vaudeville acts, and then he became the founder of some famous nightclubs, including the Latin Quarter. He had a sense of what audiences want to hear and how to reach them, and that was something she brought to journalism.

Brian Lehrer: She also, though, gave Donald Trump a lot of exposure early on, and some will judge her for being romantically involved with Roy Cohn of all people, chief counsel to Senator Joe McCarthy, and the McCarthy early mentor to Trump, not in a good way. I think most people would say. Was Barbara Walters that kind of right winger?

Susan Page: No, she wasn't. I think she was reasonably non-ideological, but she was-- I'll tell you what she was drawn to. She was drawn to men who had a certain dark side that may reflect her father as well who had a certain dark side. She had a longer friendship with Roy Cohn, the notorious lawyer, than she had with any of her three husbands. She met him when she was 25. He repeatedly proposed to her. At least once, she seriously considered accepting his proposal, although he was a closeted gay man. She took his advice. She said the love of her life was Senator Edward Brooke, the Black married senator from Massachusetts. When Roy Cohn told her that this relationship could hurt her career, could end her career, she cut it off.

Brian Lehrer: Very telling. Did she come to regret her promotion of Trump?

Susan Page: Well, she had a long friendship with Trump as well, a pretty transactional one. She did put him on the air lot on The View. He was a regular interview on The View before he was in politics. There are even some at ABC who felt that gave Trump a legitimacy who wouldn't otherwise have had. When he started to be interested in politics, she did a pretty soft interview with him that got some criticism, but then she came back around and did a really tough interview with him that showed her-- She was, as a rule, a really good interviewer in getting to the crux of someone, so criticism of a relationship with Trump, but in that later interview, she gave him a really tough time about his business acumen.

Brian Lehrer: We're talking with Susan Page, Washington bureau chief of USA Today and author of the new book, The Rulebreaker: The Life and Times of Barbara Walters. Alan in Park Slope, who says he worked with Barbara Walters at ABC. You're on WNYC. Thank you for calling.

Alan: Hi. Yes, I worked with Barbara over 26 years on ABC News 2020. I was very impressed with Barbara. She was very tough, but unlike quite a few other correspondents that I worked with, she knew exactly what she wanted and she was able to very clearly let you know how that should happen, and because of her position, she was able to get those things on the air. She was quite a professional.

Brian Lehrer: Alan, thank you very much. Another one who worked with Barbara Walters at 2020, I think, Lucy in Manhattan. You're on WNYC. Hi, Lucy.

Lucy: Hi. Yes, I worked with Barbara for five years. I was a publicist on 2020. Barbara was one of these people who could do everything. She was smart. She could edit, she could write, she could do PR, she could produce. She did everything very well. As Alan said, she could be really tough, but if you did a good job, she rewarded you in many ways. I always felt that it was a great experience working with her.

Brian Lehrer: Lucy, thank you very much. We'll play a clip in a minute of Barbara Walters interviewing Monica Lewinsky, but here's Timothy in Brightwaters who wants to ask about Barbara Walters interviewing somebody else. Timothy, you're on WNYC with Susan Page. Hello.

Timothy: Hello. Thank you so much for the opportunity. Huge fan, Brian, and also a big fan of Barbara Walters. Please, take this question in the context of that. Her interview, which I remember with Billie Jean King, and if I'm remembering it because it's been a minute, the question to Billie Jean King went something like, "How do you feel now that you've disappointed some of your fans?"

The context for that was in light of her acknowledging her sexual preference. Billie Jean King's jaw dropped and she stumbled on her words, but if I'm remembering it correctly, she said something like, "Well, I didn't know that I had disappointed my fans," and I thought it was such it was-- I just would love someone with your experience with Barbara Walters to just comment on the question. I've never really understood why she asked that question that way. There were so many different things she could have asked but she didn't.

Brian Lehrer: Timothy, let me get a response for you. I think the most important thing to ask first, Susan, is, does Timothy remember that accurately? Did Barbara Walters ask Billie Jean King that question in that way?

Susan Page: She did ask Billie Jean King about her sexual orientation. I don't remember how the question was worded, but I take Timothy at his word because there were several interviews she did that with the passage of time do not look good, do not look like appropriate questions. There was a Billie Jean King interview. There were also interviews she did with teenagers who were entertainers in which she would ask kind of sexually loaded questions that we look at now and think, how could she have asked that?

I'm thinking of one with Brooke Shields when Brooke Shields was 15 years old and had done that ad for jeans that had a certain sexual overtone. Barbara Walters had Brooke Shields stand up and to get a look at her as she stood up, which Brooke Shields has later said, was horrifying to her and humiliating, and that she still remembers how uncomfortable she was at that.

Barbara Walters was not a perfect interviewer, and she made some errors in judgment on things like that. You'd have to say she did thousands of interviews. You remember the questions she asked that were inappropriate, but mostly I remember the interviews where she asked the question you were really hoping she would ask, and she was pretty fearless about asking even tough questions. Timothy, I agree with you. That does not sound like the right way to ask that question.

Brian Lehrer: By context, one of my female colleagues just wrote me a note. "Yes, like the entire media thrived on tearing down and sexualizing young female entertainers."

Susan Page: True. Very true. In a way, she was reflecting her time but other interviews stand up better than some of these.

Brian Lehrer: A few more minutes with Susan Page, Washington bureau chief for USA Today and now the author of The Rule Breaker: The Life and Times of Barbara Walters. Here's a clip from one of her most famous interviews, which you write about, of Monica Lewinsky in 1999, the year after the impeachment of President Bill Clinton on charges related to his having an affair with Lewinsky, who was a young intern at the time. Walters, for example, asked Monica this.

Barbara Walters: Did you or the president worry about somebody coming in and finding you?

Monica Lewinsky: Yes.

Barbara Walters: You did?

Monica Lewinsky: Yes.

Barbara Walters: Was this part of the thrill?

Monica Lewinsky: It wasn't for me. I don't think it was for me.

Barbara Walters: During those weeks, did you ever say to yourself, "I'm doing something wrong? This is bad for the president. This is bad for the country." Did you ever think about that?

Monica Lewinsky: Now, with everything that's happened, I feel bad that I didn't, but I didn't at that time. I was enamored with him, and I was excited and I was enjoying it.

Brian Lehrer: Walters and Lewinsky in 1999. We don't have to revisit Clinton-Lewinsky too much, Susan, but what was the Barbara Walters context of that that was important for your book?

Susan Page: The Monica Lewinsky interview, by the way, had the highest ratings of any interview, news interview on a single network in the history of television.

Brian Lehrer: To this day?

Susan Page: Than anything before, to this day. The interview with Prince Harry and Meghan Markle that Oprah did that was also such a great interview and had what we thought were big ratings. One third the ratings of the Monica interview-

Brian Lehrer: Wow.

Susan Page: -because the news media has changed so much. Then, broadcast TV was king. Now, people can watch interviews a million different ways. They don't have to count on the TV interviewer to do that.

Brian Lehrer: Right. There are many more choices now. Yes.

Susan Page: So many more choices. This was the biggest, that record, I think it's likely to stand forever. That's likely to be the most-watched interview in the history of broadcast TV. It was really masterful. It was masterful in two ways. One, in that she landed the interview, because everybody in journalism wanted to do this interview with Monica Lewinsky. Then that she shaped it in such a way that she asked tough questions like, "Did you ever think about what this meant to the country?"

Also, questions that revealed Monica Lewinsky as a human being, which was the reason, that was the hope Monica Lewinsky had, in choosing to do the interview with Barbara Walters.

Brian Lehrer: You mentioned Oprah. Oprah credits Barbara Walters as a mentor and a pioneer without, what's the quote? You know it better than me. Is it something like, "Without Barbara Walters, there would be no me?"

Susan Page: That's right. She said that when she was a teenager, she decided she wanted to be like Barbara Walters Black, that she saw Barbara Walters as a model for what she hoped to do in her life.

Brian Lehrer: Was Barbara-- Go ahead.

Susan Page: Barbara returned the respect, because when Barbara could be critical of women journalists who followed her, followed the path that she had cut, but she had enormous respect for Oprah Winfrey.

Brian Lehrer: Was Barbara Walters a mentor or inspiration to you as from a younger generation of national politics journalist?

Susan Page: Not directly. I do think that women in journalism or in TV journalism, but also in other-- print journalists like myself, owe he a debt. When I was growing up, it never crossed my mind that women couldn't do big interviews of male newsmakers because there was Barbara Walters doing them every week. By the way, there was no reason women couldn't make as big a salary as male journalists because Barbara Walters made a bigger salary than any of them.

Brian Lehrer: We have one more clip to play, but first I'm going to take one more phone call because we haven't talked yet about The View. Justin in Ditmas Park says he worked with Barbara there. Justin, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Justin: Hello. Hello.

Brian Lehrer: Hello. Hello.

Justin: Hi. Yes. Hi. Thank you for taking my call. Yes, I worked with Barbara there and also at 2020 and she gave all of us a great opportunity. The reason why The View came into existence was because the eleven o'clock time slot was really difficult to maintain the audience from the morning shows to the afternoon soaps. We had a bunch of soap operas that used to play there, but that were unsuccessful, like half-hour shows. That's why The View was given that opportunity.

I became part of The View. She did a great thing because she launched this crazy which was at the time, very successful show and most successful in that time slots and that's why it stayed there. Unfortunately, she didn't know what wasn't very receptive to like being friendly with the crew or whatever. That's like one flaw, but we're all indebted to her.

You remember how SNL used to tease her the way she spoke, and she introduced Chumbawamba, the band from, I think they're from Australia one time, and we used to do these great live musical performances and just the-- I'm saying she's a really great sport for standing up there and introducing Chumbawamba, especially with considering her speech slight impediment. That was one of the most memorable and fun things about working with her, was that she was a really good sport and she'd do get out there and do anything. Then she helped us win some Emmys and stuff like that. A lot of us are really indebted to her for that foresight. [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Justin, thank you for all those memories, which is a perfect segue to our last clip because as some listeners may remember, even more than Barbara Walters herself, the recurring parody of her in the '70s on Saturday Night Live by Gilda Radner, or maybe-- I don't mean to say the parody was more well known than Barbara Walters herself, but it was certainly very well known and maybe to a somewhat different audience. Here's a short taste of that.

Gilda Radner: Hello. I'm Barbara Wawa, and welcome to Barbara Wawa at large.

Audience: [laughs]

Gilda Radner: We are indeed lucky to have as our guest tonight, the greatly respected and world-renowned creator of shuttle diplomacy, sometimes controversial, but to my mind a we-we regular guy.

Audience: [laughs]

Gilda Radner: Secretary of State, Dr. Henry Kissinger.

Brian Lehrer: Susan, did Barbara Walters take that well?

Susan Page: As Justin said publicly, she was a good sport about it, but privately, she was wounded. She had this impediment--

Brian Lehrer: It was many years later that she was on The View, like 20 years later. Maybe whatever it was, she got over it. I'm just speculating.

Susan Page: She liked the fact that she was considered important enough to be repeatedly parodied on Saturday Night Live. That was okay with her, but she was sensitive about her speech. She went to speech coaches early on trying to correct whatever was going on, and that didn't work. Gilda Radner, she came-- Barbara Walters was a good enough sport that when Gilda Radner died quite young, I think, of cancer, Barbara Walters sent a sympathy note to her widower, Gene Wilder, and it said, "Expressed sympathy about Gilda's death," and she signed it, "Baba Wawa."

Brian Lehrer: Oh, wow. We leave it there with Susan Page, except to say that we just got a text from a listener who wrote, "Has anyone written a biography of Susan Page? She is an amazing, amazing journalist and storyteller." We'll take that as representative of what many listeners are thinking right now. Susan Page, Washington bureau chief for USA Today in her day job, is now the author of The Rulebreaker: The Life and Times of Barbara Walters. Thank you so much for sharing it with us.

Susan Page: Thank you, Brian.

 

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