Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It. I'm Kousha Navidar, filling in for Alison Stewart. A new season of white-collar, misconduct, and investment double-crossing returns to HBO this Sunday. No, it's not a surprise bonus season of succession, but for any TV viewers with a succession-shaped hole in their schedules, Industry is a successor worth checking out.

Now in its third season, the series follows a group of recent college grads in London's ruthless and grueling high finance business. Its characters navigate young adulthood and making friends in a world where friends tend to be made based on utility and are just as often tossed aside. The show's anchor, especially for American viewers, is Harper Stern, played by my next guest, Myha'la.

In the premiere of Industry, Harper begins an entry-level job on the trading floor of the prestigious and fictional investment firm Pierpont and Co. Despite applying with a forged college degree, over the course of two seasons, Harper has risen the ranks at Pierpont thanks to a mix of drive, cunning, and double-dealing, as well as support from her toxic mentor and boss, Eric Tao, played by my other guest, Ken Leung. Here's a clip of the two of them from season one. Eric is interviewing Harper. He speaks first.

Harper: Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I've never seen anyone put their IQ on a CV before. How many of these have you had?

Eric: Nine. Four in New York, four here, and a Skype.

Harper: Why are you here then?

Eric: Well, it's not a very political answer, but I think mediocrity is too well hidden by parents who hire private tutors. I am here on my own.

Kousha Navidar: Heading into season three, Harper and Eric have had a major falling out, and now they're at very different junctures in their careers and lives, and we're lucky to have their actors join me now to discuss the show. Myha'la, Ken, welcome to All Of It.

Myha'la: Thank you for having us.

Ken Leung: Thank you, Kousha.

Kousha Navidar: Yes. Great to have you here. It's been such a pleasure getting to watch this show over the past two seasons, and now into the third. Myha'la, I'd love to start with you. I'm thinking back to your start with this show early in your career. How was Harper presented to you when t the show first came up on your radar?

Myha'la: Yes, I got an email from my representative saying, hi, Myha'la, we've got an audition request for you. It was for Harper. She was described as a young Black American woman who is traveling to London with high aspirations in the finance business. She has a by-all-means-necessary attitude. She's outwardly really anxious, but confident that if her secrets are kept, that she could make it in this Industry, which I thought was incredibly interesting. I was like, they're looking for a Black girl to play somebody in finance. I didn't understand that there were any people of color at all in finance.

I was really, really drawn to her ambition and her drive. Although I'm not necessarily in all-means-necessary kind of girl, I really appreciated that she was fiery and go-getty, and was really feeling like a trailblazer in the fabric of this genre of media.

Kousha Navidar: When you say fiery trailblazer, were those elements that you identified with?

Myha'la: I sure hoped to be. [laughter] I thought maybe I could be. I'd like to be, or it would be nice if that ended up being the case, but, that's not necessary necessarily a goal.

Kousha Navidar: Yes. Ken, how about you? How would you describe Eric? Why did the role appeal to you?

Ken Leung: The writing really appealed to me partially because I couldn't exactly track it so well, other than it being set in what to me was a very foreign world, high finance. It was written in a very almost verite. It felt very real. It came from Conrad and Mickey being from this world, and they were writing from lived experience. You could feel that in the writing in a way that is different and unique. There was implicit trust in the script.

Kousha Navidar: Yes. Can you talk a little bit more about what you mean when you say you couldn't track it? That's an interesting way of describing it.

Ken Leung: Often, especially for a pilot, the writing-- This is very generally speaking, the writing, if you get to read lots of scripts, you can get a sense of writing laws that a lot of screenplays follow, by page such and such, this should happen. This is being said because we need the information for that. You'll read a script and you'll be like, I think I know why this is being said this way.

With this script, I didn't have those- none of that. I didn't sense those kinds of laws necessarily being followed. It was almost like I was peeking into a real conversation, and it made sense that I didn't understand it all.

Kousha Navidar: Verite, like you said, authentic.

Ken Leung: Exactly right.

Kousha Navidar: Yes.

Ken Leung: That was very, very compelling. I was super curious about that.

Kousha Navidar: one of the elements that I think really keeps viewers returning to this series. Is your relationship, both of you, with Harper and Eric, and the way that this mentorship changes over the course of the whole series. I'm wondering if we could dive into that a little bit. Myha'la, for you, can you talk a little bit about what Harper, your character, sees in Eric? Is it just that he's her immediate boss? Is there something more than that? What draws her to that character?

Myha'la: Well, when she meets him, first of all, he's the person who gets her the job. He brings her to Pierpont, and then she understands that he's the only other American, and then she understands that he's one of very few people of color, so they have that to relate to. They're both minorities from America in this British context, vying for success and holding a place.

He is also an example of the success she'd like to get on the trading floor. Eric has authority, and he's very, very good at his job. He's risen the ranks. In a lot of ways, he's a sort of idol to her and many other people on the floor. She aspires to be like him and also wants to impress him and not disappoint him. Because they enter this mentor-mentee relationship, there is a intimacy, because he's really hoping that she makes it well in the job, that they create off rip.

That also might have been just natural, because I adored Ken from the beginning and also viewed him as my mentor, whether he liked it or not. [laughter] I think our personal relationship then, as well, also as Americans in a foreign land, we bonded really quickly, which I think so much of that comes through our characters aside from what's just on the page.

Kousha Navidar: How do you think that comes through in your characters?

Myha'la: A lot of people are like, do they love each other or hate each other? Ken and Myha'la, the human being love each other. Harper and Eric hate each other. [laughter] That's where a really crispy, exciting duality comes through. That's what we in the business call chemistry. That's something your own personal feelings that you just can't help. I think that's so true for the rest of the cast. All of us have created our own personal relationships that seep into our characters to help elevate and support our characters being multifaceted and holding multitudes and contradictions.

Kousha Navidar: How does Ken support you as a scene partner?

Myha'la: Ken is maybe the most honest human being I've ever met in my life. I'm not sure Ken knows how to tell a lie. Because of that, when you're in his presence, it requires you to also be honest. I think the greatest thing you can do at work is be honest; in any job, but particularly in acting.

He takes everything at face value. Anything I put in front of him, he says, yes, I believe you. That is a huge gift. It instills a lot of confidence in you as a scene partner, and also, it creates a trusting environment in which you really can try anything. There's no fear of judgment or punishment. None of that. It's a safe place that Ken creates. Ken is a safe place. I love Ken, if you don't know.

[laughter]

Ken Leung: A safe space cannot be created by one person. You're part of the creation of that.

Kousha Navidar: Yes, Ken, what's it been? Sorry. Go ahead. Myha'la. I didn't mean to interrupt you.vGo ahead.

Myha'la: I was just going to say it's a great colab. It's whatever.

Kousha Navidar: Yes, I was going to dive into that a little bit more. Ken, talking about you like you're not in the room. Let's bring you back into this. You've now three seasons under your belt of working with Myha'la. How has that working relationship evolved over the seasons?

Ken Leung: Well, this third season, we actually worked very little together, but it's funny thinking about it now. Despite not actually working together, I felt her presence the whole season. At first, it was really weird not to have her on the trading floor, but she was still there. I think I carry her around. I think for Eric, it worked out for Eric because he has her as a haunting presence throughout the season.

I was just going to riff off. You know, Myha'la. It's so easy with. With her. I think, for a lot of the reasons that she. She brought up, I feel the same way. It's from hello. I remember very specifically meeting her. It felt more like a meeting again than a meeting. I don't know. Some people, it's that way. Something chemical is there, or something you can't really put your finger on.

Maybe because we were both not home or far from home, that that had to do with it, but, yes, I've always felt super safe. Going back to the love and the hate, you have to love each other in order to play hating each other.

Kousha Navidar: It's that duality that Myha'la was talking about there.

Ken Leung: Well, you have to feel safe with each other to go anywhere.

Kousha Navidar: I want to pick up on that element that you're talking about of being away from home, and maybe that's part of the chemical reaction, whatever it is, the effervescence. For listeners who haven't listened yet, in the series, Harper and Eric are two of a very few Americans in this series. By extension, the two of you are two of very few Americans in the cast. The show films in Cardiff and London. I think both of you were, or at least were recently based in New York. Is that right for both of you?

Myha'la: Yes.

Ken Leung: Yes, born and raised.

Kousha Navidar: Does it ever feel odd? Myha'la, let's start with you. Does it ever feel odd, or do you ever feel homesick to be filming this series abroad?

Myha'la: 100%. Every single day, I miss home. [chuckles] The culture shock that people talk about when you, as a whoever, it's the same for British, from people in the UK or Europe to come to America. Culture shock is a very real thing. As being one of very few, or in a lot of instances, the only American in the room, there was a lot of culture, pop culture, politics, jokes, just ways that they slang and talk that I just had no idea what they were talking about. Of course, I caught on. I've spent enough time over the course of five years now that I can click in and I relate to them. We have similar humor. It's quite dry, and I can be quite dry. You get there.

Oddly enough, it's the strange comforts of, like, walking down the street and hearing, like, can I get a bacon, egg and cheese, and smelling the grunge of the subway or something, that is, it just makes you feel like I know this place. I know my role in this place. When you're working abroad, so you don't get that you have to make home in other ways. It can be super tough. Also massive time difference. I want to call my mom in California, but she's going to sleep when I'm waking up.

Kousha Navidar: You picked wonderful references for our audience, by the way, BEC, the crunch of the subway, WNYC is the perfect place to talk about that. Did that inform any part of Harper for you, the way that you played Harper, that real feeling of being homesick?

Myha'la: Of course. That's another thing where this show and the experience of the show and the people that they cast has been so unique and special in the sense that so much of what we were actually going through, just in the making of the show, was right for our characters. All the young grads, many of us had just graduated from drama school, from college. Marisa didn't even finish school before she started the show. A lot of us were feeling very much like, ah, we're entering the world, and we have to improve all our casting agents and the whoever, and we have to do a really good job on this show. We have to make something of ourselves, and this is our biggest opportunity.

Of course, homesickness, culture shock, imposter syndrome, whole lot of that, all of those things I was feeling; probably not addressing because I didn't want anyone to know that I was panicking, but it was perfect for Harper. It was a nice little underlying thing that I didn't have to think about in the end. I was grateful for it.

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, this is All Of It. We're talking about the show Industry. Season three premieres Sunday on HBO. That's August 11th on HBO. We're here talking with two of the stars of the series, Myha'la and Ken Leung.

Since we're talking about careers and where you're entering it into your career, the two of you have, have interesting perspectives on that as well. Ken, you entered the series at a different place in your career than what Myha'la is describing. You've had all sorts of roles. Many people may know you from Lost, but you've been in some of my favorites. Marvel shows, The Sopranos, The Good Wife. I've been watching Avatar: The Last Airbender, the live-action version of it, which you are in as well. You're going to be in the new Joker movie. In general, what's a guiding principle when you're thinking through your projects, your roles, your next step in your career?

Ken Leung: That could be the last thing. Yes, I don't think of it in the, like-- You're presenting a whole body of stuff, and I'm not conscious. I don't think about that stuff. I remind myself that I don't know anything. I listen. When you get in a project, a window opens and the window asks for help, and so you go through life absorbing it in a way that you wouldn't if you weren't engaged in that project, for me. For me.

Kousha Navidar: Talk more about that. What was that window when Industry started?

Ken Leung: I pay attention to things that I may not-- I look at the world as in terms of what is useful and what is not for the role. I think part of that is that I believe that I'm playing the role for a reason, and so I'm listening for forces outside of myself that confirm that. I suddenly picture the world as collaborating with me in playing this role.

I think part of this is a self-- It's an imagined logic, but I think it's worked for me such that I'm beginning to, I guess, having been in it for a while, I like-- I guess I open myself. It's hard to articulate, but I love the mystical part of being an actor. Between action and cut is a sacred space. You don't know who is going to watch it or what they're going to get out of it. It could be something really important, and you have no idea. You're doing it because, oh, it's a show, it's exciting, this and that, but somewhere in the privacy of somebody's- that you'll never meet, it could really hit on something.

That sacred space is, I think, governed by forces that very little about. I try to remember that. Whenever I get a role, it's like a sacred assignment. The window that I'm talking about is a "yes" window. I don't know what it is. It depends on the role. It depends on where I'm at in life. I just know that I'm suddenly just open to life in a way that I maybe I'm not, or it's different than when I'm not engaged in something like that.

Kousha Navidar: I think a lot of people would say that you're able to see through windows very clearly then, because your body of work is so varied and interesting and resonates so well. Myha'la, I was peeking at you while Ken was giving his answer, and when he mentioned mystical, I saw you nodding your head very emphatically, like you are right now. Do you want to unpackage that a little bit and maybe talk about what it is about Industry that might be resonating with folks, as Ken is describing, the people that end up watching it?

Myha'la: Sure. I wish our listeners could have seen my emphatic head nod because, honestly, this is the thing where I was like, I love Ken. He's dropping wisdom on the young ones every single day. It's like church. Yes. I think the magic that Ken is talking about is, like, really working overtime on Industry.

One of the most special things about it is I think it can appeal to a really wide audience. I have, on multiple occasions, been so shocked at a person who said, "Oh, I'm so excited for season three to come out," or, "You're my favorite character.: It's like anywhere from somebody of any race, color, creed, anything from ages like, 18 to, like, 65, it is totally across the board.

I honestly think that it appeals to people because if you're American and relating to Harper or if you've ever wanted something or wanted more or wanted a job that you were starting as a temp or in the mail room, or you're an assistant getting coffee, but what you really want to do is fashion, the ambition and the drive of the young people in this show is something that I'm pretty sure anybody can relate to. If you like high drama and high stakes and having induced panic attacks by watching, [laughter] then this show's for you.

Kousha Navidar: The element of young people and older people being drawn, I think, is important, especially when we think about headlines that show up about this show, that they often play up its Gen Z-ness. Like Paste magazine called it "a younger, hotter Succession." Myha'la, you're on the upper range of that Gen Z-millennial cutoff. What do you think about the show taps into this particular generation of young adults?

Myha'la: Well, honestly, when I think of Gen Z and the tropes of Gen Z, I don't think of these particular characters really leaning into those. I think it's just for the pure fact that that's the age group that they live in and that there are tons of Gen Z. Actually, you know what? I don't remember who it was. Maybe Sagar or somebody said the other day that the Gen Z--As a millennial, really, I'm a millennial. As a millennial, Gen Z feels so much more ambitious and hard-headed and fearless than I ever felt.

I think that's the thing that they're relating to the Industry characters is it feels like they'll do anything to get what they need and want in any scenario. They'll try whatever, against all odds. I think that's the thing that people who are probably millennials or older, who are writing about our show say. That's why it feels like a Gen Z show.

Kousha Navidar: That tenacity, you're saying that sense of hard-headedness, I think, was the term that you used, right? Yes. We have an unsolicited text here. Ken, I'm going to throw it to you. We've got just about a minute to go, but I think this is really interesting. The text reads, how has participating or acting in Industry shaped your real-world perception or understanding of the financial Industry? Ken, do you see the financial markets any differently? More interested.

Ken Leung: I have a nine-year-old boy, and we're lucky enough to send him to an independent school. It happens that most of the fellow families, the fellow parents are in finance. For the longest time I had, or what I thought was nothing in common with this community, and I couldn't find an in. I would be, oh, what do you do? They would tell me, and it would just go right over. I didn't understand their job titles. Oh, I'm in a hedge this and that. I was like, "Okay, I don't know what that is."

Now we have a common language. Many of them are fans of the show. Many of them helped me. I remember one particular parent, that year, he was driving both our sons to school, and I was in the car for a couple of these trips, and he'd take his morning meeting in the car. I was privy to an actual- what that is, what they talk about, what are the dynamics like, what is he-- I could never imagine that you could drive having one of these meetings. I would think--

Kousha Navidar: It helped you relate together even more in your real life.

Ken Leung: It gave me the texture of a texture to enter.

Kousha Navidar: We'll have to pause it there, but check out Industry Season Three on Sunday. Stick around. We'll be right back.

 

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