The State of New York and State of New Jersey

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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. I hope you're not listening because you have nothing better to do while waiting for your airline flight to be rescheduled after this morning's FAA computer problems grounded all domestic departures, at least until nine o'clock. That seems to be over now. We'll see, of course, if it was just a freak bug, or something that could have been prevented, or some cyber attack.

No indication of a cyber attack so far, but it makes you think, "If one bug or a well-placed piece of cyber war can bring the entire airline system to a halt, what else can happen?" When they really are bad guys, and they really are trying. I hope you're not listening because you're passing time while grounded or delayed.

We'll have more on what happened as it becomes available. That's the state of air travel this morning. What about the more general state of New York or the State of the State of New Jersey? As it happens, yesterday was State of the State Day in both New York and New Jersey. First came Governor Hochul at 1:00 PM.

Governor Kathy Hochul: My fellow New Yorkers, after three very, very difficult and painful, tragic years, I'm proud to stand here and say that the state of our state is strong, but we have work to do.

Brian: Then came Governor Murphy just after 2:00 PM.

Governor Phill Murphy: We are stronger and we are fairer. We are moving confidently in the right direction forward. Put simply, we are building the next New Jersey.

Brian: I'm enough of a masochist that I watched both speeches. Let's compare and contrast, to talk about what they had in common in the need to make their states more affordable and where they differed, was one of them may be speaking to a national audience considering a presidential run. Can you guess which one?

We are joined now by our own WNYC and Gothamist experts on the topic who also chose some more clips to highlight. For New Jersey, Nancy Solomon, who will also be hosting this month's Ask Governor Murphy call-in show, tonight, here on the station and for New York, our Albany reporter, Jon Campbell. Good morning, Nancy. Good morning, Jon.

Nancy Solomon: Hi, Brian.

Jon Campbell: Good morning, Brian.

Brian: Listeners, what did you think of your Governor's State of the State speeches? Were their ideas for New York or New Jersey that you're excited about? Call us at 212-433- WNYC, 212-433-9692. If you spent your afternoon watching a State of the State address, or if you just read about it, or heard some clips. 212-433-9692 or tweet @BrianLehrer. You each brought a few more excerpts that you thought were emblematic of the governors approaches to important things and what they want to achieve. Jon, let's hear one from Governor Hochul.

Governor Hochul: My goals are straightforward and clear. We will make New York safer. We will make New York more affordable. We will create more jobs and opportunities for the New Yorkers of today and the New Yorkers of tomorrow. We will open up the doors to more people and communities, especially those who have been historically blocked from equal chances at success. As other states slide backwards when it comes to protecting basic fundamental rights, we will continue to enshrine and protect those rights every single day. It will continue to be nation-leading.

Brian: We watched the State of the State addresses, so you don't have to. Safer and more affordable and more opportunities. Jon, is that where her proposal's focused and why you picked that clip?

Jon: Yes, absolutely. I picked that clip, in part because you can hear a lot of the Gubernatorial Campaign from last year in that clip, and really, it was her opponent, Lee Zeldin, that was hammering her on issues like affordability, on issues like public safety and crime. You saw Governor Hochul yesterday spend a big portion of her speech and layout an agenda that is meant to deal with those issues.

I thought that was just very interesting that, obviously, you can draw a direct line from the campaign where the governor won by a little less than six points or about six points, which is a very small margin in a Democratic state like New York. You can draw a line right from that campaign to her speech yesterday, and I thought that clip did a pretty good job of laying it out.

Brian: I see that the governor released a 275-page document to accompany the speech. I'm sure you've read it cover to cover already, ha-ha-ha.

Jon: [chuckles]

Brian: Let's drill down a little bit on what she said about public safety, which included a lot of proposals. We'll touch on one of the most contentious ones first, bail reform, as if that's any surprise. The legislature is very resistant to the changes that Republicans and Mayor Adams are calling for. It was one of those lines that might have been an applause line in some other speeches at some other times, but everybody sat on their hands. What did the governor actually propose?

Jon: What the governor proposed deals with what's known as the least restrictive means standard. What that means is, if we go back to 2019, the State Legislature and then Governor Cuomo, they eliminated cash bail for most misdemeanor and non-violent felony crimes. Basically, made it so you're released on your own recognizance prior to your trial before anybody is convicted of anything.

The idea was to avoid criminalizing poverty, making somebody sit in jail just because they can't afford to get out. That, obviously, has been a big topic of conversation, a big controversy over the years since then. What Governor Hochul is proposing here is to get rid of this standard that says, in cases where you can impose bail, where judges can impose bail, that the judge has to impose the least restrictive means necessary to ensure somebody comes back to court.

There's some confusion in the law, there's some parts of it that say, "judges can consider a history of violence, of gun crime", et cetera, et cetera, but there's this other clause that says they have to use the least restrictive means necessary. For bail eligible cases, the governor wants to get rid of the least restrictive means necessary clause.

Brian: Before we bring in Nancy and talk about public safety in New Jersey, and some of the things, and compare and contrast a little bit. Maybe the biggest headline coming out of the governor's speech was her initiative to provide a billion dollars for New Yorkers dealing with serious mental illness. Did she link that explicitly to public safety because in the minds of a lot of the public it is that in addition to the services for the people with mental illness themselves? Jon? Did we lose, Jon? That was for you.

Jon: Hey, Brian. I'm sorry. I think I lost you there for a second.

Brian: Yes, just asking if the governor's billion dollar proposal for New Yorkers dealing with serious mental illness was part of the public safety part of the speech? Should we see those two things as related?

Jon: Well, you saw Mayor Adams afterwards connect the two. In his statement, praising Governor Hochul, he said that her mental health plan will help deal with public safety. There were two separate parts of her speech. She wants to spend a billion dollars to bring 850 inpatient psychiatric beds back online, a lot of those were lost during the pandemic. She also wants to bring on a few thousand units of supportive housing for people who are presumed to be mentally ill.

Those are things that go hand in hand with Mayor Adams' plan, his mental health plan, that has been the subject of controversy where people are involuntarily taken to hospitals for evaluations. They're taken there by police, by EMTs. These go hand in hand, and you saw Mayor Adams be very, very thankful for that in his statement praising the governor yesterday.

Brian: Nancy, before we play a clip of Governor Murphy, one of my overall impressions of the two speeches back-to-back was that Governor Hochul told New Yorkers what she's going to try to do for them. Governor Murphy told people in New Jersey, what he's already done for them.

Nancy: He has been in office a lot longer, so I think it's fair enough to give him a chance to talk about what he's done. In my humble opinion, I think this was the best State of the State he's given since 2019. Back at that point, he took on the machines and the backroom deals that had resulted in a bloated, corporate tax big break program, and that was a really interesting move.  This year, I think he really did everything that a State of the State requires. He was touting his successes. He did propose new ideas. He offered up some Jersey flair, and we have to even some pretty cringe worthy things, like it's cool to live in New Jersey. No.

Brian: No?

Nancy: No, I do not think it's cool to live in New Jersey.

Brian: Don't tell my friend from Hoboken that, but go ahead.

Nancy: [laughs] It was just I think it had a little bit of everything and I think he did a pretty good job.

Brian: Like Governor Hochul, he had a closer call than might have been expected from a Republican challenger in his case 2021, in her case, 2022, but also based on crime largely.

Nancy: No. I mean, I don't think that was the primary issue. Remember, now we're talking about a year ago. A year has passed since he went through a tight reelection, and then gave his first State of the State after reelection. I think the big problem that he had during his campaign in '21 was that he didn't address property taxes, he hadn't addressed it in his first four years. There was an affordability crisis going on that is still going on.

He came out of the gates in January of '22 with a proposal of a big tax rebate, which we can talk about in a minute, and also just talking a lot about trying to make New Jersey more affordable. That was pretty much gone. I mean, he did refer to the ANCHOR Program, which is the tax rebate program, but he did not focus as much on affordability. I'd say he's moved on and past the problems of his campaign. Which I guess you could say that's appropriate.

Brian: Here's one of the clips you chose for us from the speech that probably falls into that category you just called New Jersey flair. This is about a new park and then you'll tell us why it stood out to you. Governor Murphy.

Governor Murphy: We announced the final purchase of the land that will become the Garden State Greenway. That's the conversion of nine miles of abandoned railroad track bed from the People's Republic of Montclair to Jersey City.

[applause]

Governor Murphy: I just want to make sure you're all paying attention out there. Nine miles into a linear park that will rival any other of its kind dwarfing Manhattan's Highline. To give you a sense of what that means nine miles Manhattan's Highline, 1.45 miles. Are you kidding me? Come to Jersey. I must give--

[applause]

Brian: Casting shade on the Highline and also the People's Republic of Montclair. Is that a subtle way of tacking to the center?

Nancy: I think it's just him going off script and being funny. I think everybody does refer to Montclair as the People's Republic of Montclair. Murphy is at his best when he goes off script, and he doesn't do it often and he doesn't do it often enough, in my opinion. That was a good moment for him. He went off script, the audience loved it. He's also talking about a great state initiative to build this rail trail, basically, a bike trail on old disused rail lines, nine miles from Montclair to New Jersey City.

He's taking a jab at New York. I mean, this is really Murphy at his best because he is a funny guy when you see the real him. You just don't get to see the real him very often. He's got this big smile, and he's pointing to people up in the balcony. You really get a sense of-- He enjoys politics. He enjoys politicking and he's taking a jab at New York. This is a legit initiative that they're spending a bunch of money on that is going to be a great feather in the cap of Essex and Hudson counties.

Brian: Listeners, if you're in the People's Republic of Montclair, how's Governor Murphy doing? If you're in the United States of Cape May, how is Governor Murphy doing or anywhere in the Garden State? 212433 WNYC. You don't, actually, have to have listened to the State of the State speech to have an opinion about this. 212-433-9692.

Same for anybody in New York, the global capital of the planet earth known as Brooklyn, or anywhere else in New York, 212433 WNYC 212-433-9692, as we play clips from Governor Murphy's and Governor Hochul's State of the State addresses yesterday with our New Jersey reporter, Nancy Solomon, and our Albany reporter, Jon Campbell. 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer.

Nancy, just one other thing pertaining specifically to that clip, because people may be interested, what is the Garden State Greenway going to be? Because in my mind's eye, comparing it to the Highline, I mean, I walked the Highline. I'm sure you've walked the Highline, it's great, but it's definitely an urban Manhattan thing. I'm also a big fan of rails to trails linear parks, where off road, you can stretch out for many miles on a bicycle. Is that what the Garden State Greenway is going to be or what's it going to be?

Nancy: Yes, it's going to be all of those things, I think. I mean it's not Manhattan, but it's a very densely populated part of the country, and of New Jersey, and of the region. We're talking about an urban bike path. I believe the plan is to have both space for pedestrians and bicyclists. That part of it exists as a elevated railway now, so that's kind of the highline aspect to it, and that's the part that's in Jersey City. Then it extends from Jersey City through Bayonne, I believe. I don't have the map in front of me and into Essex County, to Montclair. I think parts of it will be on the ground through, both urban areas. Maybe there'll be some greenery, but it'll definitely be a mixture of all of those things.

Brian: By the way, our first tweet says, "I love that even the New Jersey correspondent doesn't think New Jersey is cool."

[laughter]

Nancy: Anybody has to call themselves cool, isn't so cool in my book.

[laughter]

Brian: Jon, let's talk about another big number in Governor Hochul's speech, housing, namely 800,000 new units. Every town has a goal that if they don't hit, the State will intervene. This is not going to be popular in Nassau County and Suffolk County, which she called out and cast shade on by name for not building enough housing. Tell us about this.

Jon: Yes, absolutely. For weeks now, we've been hearing from the governor that she's going to put forward a plan to create 800,000 new units over the next 10 years and she wants to be the housing governor. I mean, she's made that very clear. We heard our first details yesterday on that. What you just mentioned there, these town by town, city by city, village by village goals for housing is really the centerpiece of that plan.

What it would do is require that each municipality create either 3% if you're "downstate", or 1% if you're upstate in new housing stock over the next three years, over three-year cycles. If you don't hit those numbers, if you don't increase your housing stock by 3% or 1% depending on where you are, the State can step in and essentially approve multi-family multi-income housing projects in your areas. Essentially, override local zoning decisions. That is a big deal.

A lot of local governments are not going to like that, particularly in the suburbs like you said, they're Long Island, maybe Rockland County, Orange County. Those are areas that are going to have an issue with this, and it depends on whether the governor can force this through because a lot of her housing agenda is going to require legislative approval. That's what we'll see in the next couple of months as she negotiates her budget and the next six months during the legislative session.

Brian: Here's a Jersey caller, Tim from Mountable. Are you around WNYC? Hi, Tim.

Tim: Hi, can you hear me?

Brian: We can hear you just fine.

Tim: Rail advocates and environmentalists have been very upset with Governor Murphy because he hasn't actually been extending any rail. The Hudson Bergen light rail has been waiting to go to Englewood for years. Nothing has been done and now this Essex Hudson Trail only really doesn't make sense. What we need is we need to have a light rail and a trail next to it. Because if we're going to get cars off the road, the governor is also proposing $10.7 billion to expand the I78 in Jersey City. Jersey City doesn't want it. Hoboken doesn't want it, even New York doesn't want it because they're trying to get cars off the road.

You just going to funnel more cars into the Holland Tunnel, which is already overcrowded. What we need is these connections, we need to make Hudson Bergen light rail as an option, we need to restore the service that's been cut to Hoboken along all the rail lines. Essex Hudson trail needs to be a light rail with a trail that people can walk and bike alongside it.

Brian: Both things and I'm going to leave it there. Tim in Mountable accompanied by his parakeet, I think. Nancy, how about light rail, mass transit, did it come up in Governor Murphy State of the State?

Nancy: Only a little bit. He mentioned the investments in infrastructure that were going to result in better train service broadly. He said that the Raritan Valley line was going to get a one seat ride into Manhattan to Penn Station, which it doesn't at this point, you have to go to Secaucus and change or Hoboken. He didn't say much. I think they can do the the trail the rail trail, and at the same time improve mass transit and not invest in the NJ Turnpike extension to the Holland Tunnel.

That's a big issue, of course, did not mention it's been a real thorn of late because there's so much opposition to it. They're talking about widening the Interstate 78 extension from Newark Airport into the Holland Tunnel. They're not widening the tunnel, of course so there's little hope of it really improving the constant traffic jam there.

I know that transportation advocates are very frustrated with him, so are environmentalists, about a bunch of things. The highway expansion, they're not happy about environmentalists, they're also not happy that he has yet to stop. He may in the end, do it, but he's yet to stop I think it's the total number is like seven fossil fuel plants around Northern New Jersey that people want stopped. I think both could fit into the same category of investments in fossil fuel infrastructure.

Murphy's response to the criticism about the Turnpike widening, is that they're thinking about the future when the entire gasoline transportation sector will be fueled by electric vehicles, and that you're still going to need roads, electric trucks, electric buses, electric cars, but you're still going to be good roads. They want to build out for the future of that, and environmentalists and Jersey City residents are not buying it.

Brian: By the way on the conversation that you seem to have started at the beginning by saying, "New Jersey is uncool." Another listener tweets, "Nancy Solomon is totally right. We moved from Brooklyn at what made Jersey cool is how like Brooklyn once was, it's inherently uncool." Thank you, Matt, now from Jersey formally from Brooklyn. Will continue in a minute with New Jersey reporter, Nancy Solomon, and Albany reporter, Jon Campbell. We'll play one more clip each from Governor Hochul and Governor Murphy State of the State address and take a few more calls. Stay with us.

Alison Stewart: On the next All Of It, in the new film, Alice Darling, Anna Kendrick plays a woman in a relationship with an emotionally abusive and controlling boyfriend. The Guardian calls it, "a career best performance". She joins us in studio to discuss. Author Paul Auster his latest book look at the history of guns and gun violence in America, something his family has experienced with. I'm Alison Stewart join me for All Of It weekdays at noon, on WNYC.

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Brian: On tomorrow's Brian Lehrer show, speaking of the cool center of the universe, Brooklyn Borough President, Antonio Reynoso, will join us to talk about the state of Brooklyn. He gave his State of the borough yesterday, didn't get as much press attention as the State of the States. Brooklyn Borough President, Reynoso, among our guests on tomorrow's Brian Lehrer Show.

Speaker 2: WNYC independent journalism in the public interest. 93.9 FM and AM 820, NPR News and The New York conversation.

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Brian: Brian Lehrer on WNYC by the way, in about an hour, we'll continue our series taking calls on the most defining news events of your lifetime, decade-by-decade. Those of you who have been listening to it, think have been barely enjoying it. We've been getting great feedback. We started with a calling for people in your 90s' or above, then for people in your 80s'. Today, we're up to people in your 40s', so get ready to call in with the most defining news event of your lifetime if you're in your 40s' coming up in about an hour.

We're also inviting you to throw in your most memorable concert. That's today. Tomorrow for people in your 30s', Friday for people in your 20s' as we complete the set. Then we'll have a special addendum next Monday for Martin Luther King Day for anybody who remembers the civil rights era. You would need to be of a certain age. We'll continue these oral history call-ins today, tomorrow, Friday, Monday, on the Brian Lehrer show.

Right now we're talking about Governor Murphy's and Governor Hochul's State of the State addresses yesterday with Jon Campbell, our Albany reporter, and Nancy Solomon, who reports on New Jersey. We're going to play one more clip of each, but first, Jon to my ear, the biggest applause line by Governor Hochul yesterday, was her announcement that she wants to index the state's minimum wage to inflation.

Jon: Yes, absolutely. That got a really warm response in the room. I want to give my colleague, Jake Oftenhetcht, credit here. He called up some business lobbying groups after and really the reaction from business groups is what surprised me because they seem okay with it. They just don't want a big hike in the minimum wage first. Right now, the minimum wage is about-- is not about is $15 in New York City and the suburbs, it's a little less in the rest of the state.

What Governor Hochul announced is she wants to index that to the consumer price index. If inflation is 3%, then the minimum wage would go up 3%. She said she wants to put some unspecified cap on that to protect against huge spikes in the minimum wage. She also didn't say whether she would want to increase the minimum wage first.

I talked to Senator Jessica Ramos, she sponsored a bill that would increase the minimum wage to 21.25 by the year 2026. She told me that she wants to see that increase first. Carl E. Heastie, the Assembly Speaker, he said something similar. It got a warm reception, but there's still going to be some areas of negotiation there that could make or break the whole proposal.

Brian: All right. One more clip from each of them. Here's Governor Murphy, near the end of his speech. This is a little over a minute.

Governor Phil Murphy: Everything we do is guided by our belief that tomorrow can be better than today for the state that we all love. As Nelson Mandela said, and I quote him, "May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears." He went on, "It always seems impossible, until it's done." Amen. Focusing on hope is not simply an act of optimism, it is an unshakable belief in this state and in everyone who calls New Jersey Home. Some governors boast that their state is where woke goes to die, I'm not even sure I know what that means, but I could tell you very confidently, New Jersey is where opportunity lives, where education is valued, where justice is embraced, where compassion is the norm, and where the America dream is alive and well.

Brian: All right. Classic speech right into a crescendo of applause and a crescendo in his voice. Nancy, a couple of things there. One, interesting to hear him focus on hope and say, "Hope is not simply an act of optimism." We live in a relatively pessimistic time, I think it's safe to say. That was interesting. Then, "Where woke goes to die." That's a line from Florida Governor Ron DeSantis. I think we saw both governors, Hochul and Murphy, try to counter this narrative while at the same time acknowledging a certain reality that some people are moving from New York to Florida more than we would like, and New Jersey to Florida.

Nancy: I think this clip really telescopes where Murphy is going. If Biden doesn't run in 2024, I think we're going to see a Murphy candidacy. Most likely Biden will run in 2024, and that, actually, plays perfectly into a Murphy timeline. He can finish his second term, which Chris Christie was campaigning during his second term much to the consternation of the state of New Jersey, and then two years after his second term, he can run.

This fits his style and his personality so much. This is a guy who is all about the long game. He comes from a working class family, and he gets into Harvard, and then he goes to Penn. He loves musical theater and acting, but he goes into finance, and he makes a bundle on Wall Street. Then he starts getting involved in politics behind the scenes years before he runs for governor.

Then he starts his gubernatorial race years before the actual vote. He's showing a lot of signs of a very long-term plan here. He's got a non-profit set up to do both mostly dark money fundraising, but also policy work, he's worked to get the World Cup to come to New Jersey, he's a soccer fan, so he is super stoked about that. That's going to be in 2026.

What a great launchpad for him that the World Cup would be in New Jersey in 2026. I think he's positioning himself for 2028, as far away as that seems. This is not the only time he's taken jabs at Republican states. New Jersey has, actually, put up billboards in a few Republican states advertising that women have a right to choose here, come move to New Jersey. This is part of the long game.

Brian: Jon, any reaction, before we play the last Hochul clip, from the County Executives of Nassau and Suffolk, or Westchester for that matter on Governor Hochul's demand really, I guess they're going to try to get it into legislation, that they build for more density in the New York City suburbs?

Jon: I haven't heard the reaction from them to this point. Safe to assume that Bruce Blakeman in Nassau County, a Republican, he is not going to like it. That's, for sure. In Westchester County, you've got George Latimer. He's a moderate Democrat who is allied with Governor Hochul, so I'm not sure you might hear the same kind of pushback there. To this point, I can't say that I sought out their comment yesterday.

I did see that George Latimer was there at the speech and Bruce Blakeman was there the day before, I believe too. They're locked in on this for sure. Housing is a huge issue in both of those counties and in Suffolk County as well, and that's a difficult needle for the governor to thread and she's going to get some pushback. There's no doubt about it. How she stands up to that pushback is going to be a major sign in whether or not her housing plan can work.

Brian: I think we're going to hear a little solidarity with what might be the resistance to that idea that'll come especially from Long Island. From Harold in Union County in New Jersey. Harold, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Harold: Hi. Finally got through today. Glad to hear. Anyway, to the point. Can you hear me first of all?

Brian: I can hear. We got you, yes.

Harold: Great. I'm going to go to they want to expand all the building. They want to make the roads bigger and all of this in Jersey. I'm originally from Brooklyn. I've moved out here a few years now, so I see things through different eyes. Hochul wants to make more affordable apartments in New York. At least you can go out and get a subway or a bus somewhere. In Jersey, they're building apartments by the thousand. I don't know if you've been out there, but you would not believe how they're building.

There's no system for transportation. There's nowhere for these cars to park, and if they all bought cars, there's no where to drive them because there'll be thousands of cars. I've mentioned to people, they're going to have to put in a bus system out here, a real bus system. Not the one they have now that comes every hour, but one that comes every 15 minutes at least. Who's in charge of it? Don't you plan when you build something?

Brian: Harold, thank you. That's such an important point. Nancy, I'll let you take this since he was calling from Union County. We do see that debate wherever dense construction is proposed. Are you also going to build the infrastructure? The mass transit infrastructure like Harold was talking about, and sewage infrastructure, other kinds of infrastructure where density comes.

Nancy: The governor would say we are very focused on building infrastructure, and he'll point to the gateway tunnel, which is the new train tunnel that'll come in 10, 15 years under the Hudson, and the bridge that leads to that tunnel, which needs to be rebuilt, the Portal Bridge. You hear a lot about that. From transportation advocates and not from the administration, you hear a lot about the need for improvements to the bus system and that it needs to be a bus system that not just takes people into New York, but that gets people from one place in the state to another place in the state, and that it's sorely lacking.

I think that is a very right on criticism. Even this debate about expanding the Turnpike to the Holland Tunnel. If you want to go from somewhere in Jersey, even that not that far away, say Newark or Maplewood, the People's Republic of Montclair, if you want to go to Jersey City, you have to get on that road and sit in Holland Tunnel traffic. We, definitely, need buses. We need more buses, we need a better bus route, better service, all of that.

Brian: Last clip of Governor Hochul from her State of the State as chosen by our Albany reporter, Jon Campbell. Let's listen to this minute of Governor Hochul.

Governor Hochul: The great Francis Perkins, FDR's Labor Secretary, once said, "A government should aim to give all the people under its jurisdiction the best possible life." That's it. That's the job. That's what we're here to do. I cannot stand here and say we're done yet, because even though we've set the table for what should be the most prosperous time in New York history, if New Yorkers don't feel safe in their communities, if they can't afford to buy a home or pay their rent, then the dream stays out of reach for them.

We're already seeing signs about migration that we can no longer ignore, something I know all too well from growing up in Western New York at times when jobs were so hard to find. We cannot let that happen again. The good news is, it does not have to be that way.

Brian: Jon, we've got this duality in New York where we need all this housing because so many people are coming, but then the governor's cites out migration with too many people leaving. I guess both things are happening at the same time, but what caught your ear there that made you identify that clip for us, and then we're out of time.

Jon: Well, it was really that out migration line. That's something that she continues to face criticism for from Republicans. Lee Zeldin in particular made it a big part of his campaign last year. The US Census Bureau estimated that that New York lost more population than any other state in the country over the last year, and a lot of that is "upstate". She has this difficult needle to thread where she has to please-- It's like two states in one, and you heard her try to navigate that treacherous territory there. You're right, it is a duality. Like, "Yes, we need to create more housing, but also we're losing population over overall. There's out migration." It's going to paint the picture over the next year and that's why I picked that clip.

Brian: Jon Campbell, Albany reporter for WNYC and Gothamist and Nancy Solomon, WNYC reporter. Maybe you know her. Unbelievably amazing, fantastic and very cool Podcast Dead End, A New Jersey political Murder mystery, and she also hosts our monthly Ask Governor Murphy Calling Show, which is tonight, Nancy, for January, right?

Nancy: Yes. Tonight, seven o'clock.

Brian: You want to preview your first question or no reveal before the governor hears it?

Nancy: No. We're going to talk about this, we're going to talk about his speech. We'll get into stuff we didn't get into this morning, folks but we'll talk about the speech and other things. It's driving people nuts that Murphy does these good things, but then the programs aren't run well. You can't get through on the phone, you can't get the DMV, you can't get unemployment so we'll have a nice conversation about that.

Brian: Tonight at seven here on the station. Nancy, Jon, thanks a lot.

Nancy: Thank you.

Jon: Thanks so much.

 

 

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