Tracing the White House Outbreak

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. By the way, I think when I was saying goodbye to Eric Adams, I somehow called him the Manhattan Borough President. He obviously, as we were calling him through this segment, and for the last number of years, is the Brooklyn Borough President. Now, what did the President know, and when did he know it? You know that phrase from Watergate. I wonder if there is a deadly COVID Gate, let's say potentially deadly COVID Gate brewing in New Jersey.[00:01:03]

The President knew he had been exposed to the Coronavirus before he attended a top-dollar fundraiser with more than 200 donors on Thursday, but he didn't disclose it to anyone there. Is he criminally liable or subject to lawsuits if people who were there get sick or die? Eight hours later, he announced he tested positive, but he had symptoms on the day.

Now there's potential for a full-on outbreak in the White House too. For an update on the situation in the White House and in New Jersey. I'm joined now by Anita Kumar, White House correspondent and associate editor at Politico and a board member of the White House Correspondents Association, and there's news on that front, and Nancy Solomon, managing editor for a New Jersey Public Fadio, and New Jersey editor at WNYC. Nancy and Anita Welcome back to the show.

Anita Kumar: Thanks for having me.

Nancy Solomon: Thanks, Brian.

Brian: Early this morning, if I may start on this news, Axios reported that the COVID outbreak in the White House has now reached the press corps. Zeke Miller, President of the White House Correspondents Association, said in a letter to colleagues that at least three members of the White House press corps have tested positive for the virus. Anita, as a board member of the White House Correspondents Association, what more can you tell us?

Anita: Yes, that's right. We announced that three members had, and we have been encouraging White House reporters since the beginning for months now to wear masks. Be careful when they come in and really just not be at the White House to work or come to briefings if they're not supposed to be there. Generally, before Coronavirus, there were dozens, hundreds even of reporters there at any one time. There's lots of desks for people to work at, and we're just trying to limit that.

Brian: Are you identifying the names of the infected journalist?

Anita: We aren't. I know that one person has talked about it. That's a colleague of mine at the New York Times, Mike Shear, has talked about it publicly that he has it and he is working from home and seems to be doing relatively okay.

Brian: Was he at press briefings, run by the White House press secretary Kayleigh McEnany who doesn't wear masks at these briefings and acknowledged yesterday that she has tested positive?

Anita: Yes, it's really hard to tell where everybody both of the aides that have gotten it, and also the press corps exactly where this started or where it came from. I believe Mike has mentioned that he went on a trip with the President of the Saturday of the Rose Garden event that everybody's talking about, but I don't believe he was at that rose garden event, but he did travel on a trip to one of those campaign rallies that the President had. It's very hard to sort of track down exactly how this has happened.

When you look at-- The White House is actually not saying which different aides have it, but word has leaked out on a variety of levels. We know there have been people in the White House residents. Obviously, we've heard about all sorts of people that were in the Rose Garden or other aides. There's also people from the outside, so you don't actually know where it started.

I suppose that's what contract tracing is for in that health officials can try to figure out exactly how this started. Of course, there are a lot of people still testing this week, reporters and staffers, because as you know, you may be exposed, but the incubation period is a little bit longer, so it might not show up right away.

Brian: I've heard that there isn't 100% cooperation from the White House with contact tracers for various of these events and people who are potentially exposed. Is that an issue right now between the White House Correspondents Association in the White House?

Anita: I can tell you this that the White House says they are doing contact tracing, but I can also tell you that I've spoken to people that were at various events who haven't been contacted. It's either not happening, or they're slow to do that, so it's a little bit confusing, really what's happening right now. As you know, it's not just the White House, per se, it is the President, and I know we'll get to this part about New Jersey, but the President was in many states last week.

It's also all these other events and other states and then Air Force One as well. It's not just one time, one place, one event. It's all over the place.

Brian: In New Jersey, Governor Phil Murphy is seeing an uptick in Coronavirus cases in the state, and he's upset about the possible consequences. We don't know what they are yet of the Bedminster fundraiser. Here he is at a press briefing yesterday.

Phil Murphy: We wish everybody who's been affected beginning with the President, the First Lady, Governor Christie, anyone else who's been affected, we wish them nothing but speedy recovery, full recovery there in our deepest thoughts and prayers. As it relates to the event that took place on Thursday in New Jersey, with the knowledge that they had before they left for New Jersey, that there was exposure to a COVID positive individual. That trip was completely unacceptable, completely reckless, and completely uncalled for.

Brian: Nancy Solomon from New Jersey Public Radio, what's known about any spread from the Bedminster event.

Nancy: What they know is that there were 206 people at the event, and that includes 19 people who work for the golf club. The state is trying its best, both the state health department and the local officials in Somerset County where the golf club is located, are trying to do contact tracing. One of Governor Murphy's big beefs right now is that he's not getting enough help from the White House or the National Republican Committee.

They got 184 email addresses. They're any information on 22 people, but they don't-- having someone's email is not enough. They want phone numbers, they want addresses. They're getting mixed results as they try to reach people via email. They're concerned that this could turn into a super spreader event for New Jersey.

Brian: The initial list of the 206 donors. That's the number I've seen, 206 donors who attended that fundraiser. The initial list from the White House did not contain phone numbers, as I understand it, but eventually, the state got access to them. Here's governor Murphy again, and the state's Health Commissioner, Judy Persa Kelly, at that press briefing yesterday on how some donors were responding to being contacted through the contact tracing system.

Judy Persa Kelly: Some not so positive that--

Murphy: Including how did you get my name?

Judy: Yes, well, that is--

Murphy: The Republican National Committee for anyone who's watching is where we got your name.

Brian: Nancy, do you know how successful the contact tracing attempts related to the Bedminster fundraiser have been so far, and do you know the degree of non-cooperation among people who were there, and are being contacted?

Nancy: I know a little bit more from what they said around that exact moment during the press briefing yesterday. It's a very mixed results. Some people are cooperating, some people thank them for getting in touch. According to Judy Persa Kelly, the Health Commissioner, some people said, I'll tell other people I know who were there, but they're also getting resistance from others.

I interviewed Rick Maida, who is running for senate against Cory Booker. He's the GOP candidate. He was at the event, and he said the governor is fear-mongering, that there's nothing to worry about, that he never came anywhere near close to the President, and that he wasn't quarantining. He was actually going to campaign events in person this weekend.

Brian: The comedian Joe Piscopo was one of the people who attended that fundraiser. Nancy, you pulled this clip, let's listen.

Joe Piscopo: He's got doctors with him. I imagine he's got the top dogs with him. He's got everybody. Whatever you may think happened, I would really check that that it did happen because I know he's very careful, and you know one thing you have to understand, the President like myself as a germaphobe.

Brian: Is that generally the mood among those donors and attendees?

Nancy: So far that's the res-- I can't say I've talked to a lot of them because most of them didn't want to talk to me that I reached out to, but so far, there's been a lot of defensiveness. Just to be clear, Joe Piscopo was responding to-- My question was, "Do you have any qualms about the president coming on this trip, given that he knew he'd been exposed to COVID through Hope Hicks?" That was his response.

People, they're going to support Trump no matter what the supporters. Also, that was the response on Friday. I think hopefully we're not going to see people get sick from this event, but if people start getting sick, I think we're going to see a real difference there in how people are responding.

Brian: Anita Kumar, White House correspondent for Politico. How is the White House talking about the Bedminster fundraiser event in retrospect now that it's clear that the President was at least aware of his exposure before participating, and from what I understand, was experiencing symptoms at that time already? Maybe you can confirm or refute that part.

Anita: It's been really confusing as you've probably seen since when the President announced on Friday that he had tested positive. It's been very confusing because- [crosstalk]

Brian: Thursday night really, right?

Anita: Yes, right. Right after midnight really. Their information is conflicting, so we're getting different information from different people at the White House and at the Trump campaign. What we do know is that he had tested positive from one of those rapid tests but was awaiting the findings of that more comprehensive test that takes a little bit longer, but that was still after he returned, returned from New Jersey.

Exactly what he knew earlier is actually a source of confusion. Hope Hicks, you're right, did test positive and what several people have said is, "Well, that was a very small group of people that knew about that." In fact, the press secretary who, you mentioned has now tested positive said he didn't know that at that time.

Brian: Did the President know that Hope Hicks had tested positive when he went to Bedminster? That's an important fact.

Anita: Yes, that is important, and I don't know the answer to that because I've been told two different things on that. I've heard from various White House officials two different things. What they're saying is that he didn't know, and didn't announce, and didn't tell people until that second test, and that was much later. That was late, late, late that night.

We don't know exactly, but we do know that people in the White House including Hope Hicks knew that she had it, tested positive and that he could have been potentially exposed there. We do know that and there are a lot of people asking not so much about some of the other events in the week, and there had been many of them, but really focused on this New Jersey event.

Brian: One of the reasons there's so much focus on the New Jersey event, Nancy, I believe is because part of it was an indoor round table with 16 of the highest dollar donors. I read that you had to donate $250,000 to buy that degree of access, but 16 people indoors with the president, so presumably that would have been a riskier place to be within than the larger group outdoors, where maybe there was more distancing.

We also saw, at least one couple tweet or I should say post on Instagram a photo of them with the president at the Bedminster event, so somebody got close to him. Is there a distinction being made between that round table and other parts of the event?

Nancy: Yes, I think there is more concern about the people who were inside with the president, including people who work at the golf club, but also these VIP donors who gave a lot of money. There were a number of executive order violations. The executive orders are the orders that the governor has signed, restricting all sorts of things during the pandemic. We're under a state of emergency and these orders have the force of law. Coming from out of state, just period. Coming from out of state, there is a long list of states that you must quarantine if you come from out of state.

Knowing that you've been exposed and coming from out of state makes it worse. They served food at a buffet table. That is in violation of the governor's executive order. The indoor gathering, they're investigating and looking at whether it exceeded the capacity for what's allowed given the executive orders. I was told by one administration official, the Murphy administration that the golf club could lose its liquor license and face other penalties for violating these executive orders.

Brian: Let's take a phone call, and New Jersey residents, New Jersey listeners, anybody in the Bedminster area who works at the club, there's been a lot of focus on the donors, but of course, there are employees as well. Anybody among you listening right now or anybody who knows anyone who works at Bedminster want to call in with a report on any of this? Or anyone who was at that fundraiser as an attendee, do you want to call in and say if you're getting yourself tested, if you're quarantining, if you were in close contact with the president, or anything else or anyone else?

646-435-7280, 646-435-7280 for Anita Kumar, white house correspondent for Politico and New Jersey Public Radio's Nancy Solomon, editor of that reporting group that's part of the New York/New Jersey Public Radio family. John in Lumberton. You're on WNYC. Hi, John. Thanks for calling in.

John: Hi, Brian.

Brian: Oops. John's line just dropped off. John, you could call us back. Gary in Queens, Trump supporter, you're on WNYC. Hi Gary.

Gary: Oh, I didn't hear. Thanks. I told you your screen was a little rushed, so thank you. Look, I'm 68. We've seen communicable diseases before, some of them killing 100,000, 150,000 once, 1 million in '68 I think it was.

We never had this stuff. We never had mask-wearing, social distancing, shutting down the entire economy. Children today have a higher death rate, something like 20 times more of seasonal flu than COVID. I could go on. People are being diagnosed with COVID, if they have a positive test, when we only had the PCR, it was 80% false positives.

Brian: Gary, 700 people are dead, are dying right now from COVID according to the official statistics. You're shrugging that off?

Gary: If you died from a normal disease-- Hello?

Brian: Go ahead.

Gary: If you're dying of any other disease but you test positive for COVID, you don't diagnose those as COVID.

Brian: That's right. Okay. I'm going to go, but I'm talking about the deaths. Anita Kumar, is there any misinformation that needs to be fact-checked from that call, regardless of his opinions?

Anita: I think you've seen the public health experts and that's who we should look at to talk about how many people's lives can be saved if people do stay home, they don't mingle in these big groups, and they do wear masks. Masks are really a huge focus, and I can tell you from my time at the White House in these White House events, there are White House staffers until very recently that haven't been wearing masks. There was congressional testimony a few weeks ago that said mask-wearing is so, so important, and the United States would be an entirely different place if everybody could wear a mask for six weeks. I don't know if you remember that. I just was really struck by that. Here we are in our what? Seventh, eighth, ninth month of this, and I was really struck by how the country could be beating this if people would wear masks.

Brian: Is it your impression reporting as you do on the national level, that what we heard from Gary, there is typical of Trump supporters around the country, that because a lot of people have died in previous pandemics or epidemics or whatever, and we didn't engage in national mask-wearing and selective economic shutdowns to control those epidemics that we shouldn't do it now?

Anita: That's why I'm here. The main argument I would say that I'm hearing from people that don't want a shutdown including the President is that there are consequences, and this is true, of course. There are consequences to shutting down. You can see them in people's mental health. You can see them in how children are trying to learn virtually in school, which has been really tough on a lot. You can see it in the economy. Of course, there are consequences to shutting down and all those things. It's a balancing act, of course, and they're basically saying, "It's going to be more harmful if we do shut down."

Brian: Spencer in Berkeley Heights, you're on WNYC. Hi Spencer.

Spencer: Good morning, Brian. How are you?

Brian: Good. Thanks for calling. I see you worked at the Bedminster facility, is that correct?

Spencer: No, a lifetime ago I worked for Verizon Wireless, which has a location in Berkeley, in Bedminster, excuse me and it's only about three miles away of the crow flies. The thing about Bedminster, there's not a lot of commercial areas of it. You've got a few strip malls and the like, which means that there's going to be lots of places that would be cross the vectoring.

I can only imagine that a number of my former coworkers could very well be interacting with people who attended that event. I find the behavior of our current commander in chief to be idiotic at best and criminally negligent at worst. Unfortunately, this scenario is effectively a perfect storm, including behavior of just trying to win at all costs, whether it be for his own ego or for the benefits of the Republican Party.

It, unfortunately, reminds me far too much of the incident that occurred in the Pennsylvania State legislature, not too long ago when a Republican legislator, possibly even more than one was diagnosed with COVID-19 and said parties notified the rest of the Republicans in the legislature, but not the Democrats.

It led to its own internal firestorm, which apparently the AG decided was not of sufficient threshold to file charges against, but it certainly also has made the concept of [unintelligible 00:22:01] unification and that legislative body even that much more tenuous. This stuff has to stop and it's got to stop more so from the president on top to trickle-down to other Republicans, and to all of his followers so that maybe we can go ahead and have that now almost mythical concept of civil discourse.

Brian: Spencer, thank you very much. One more from Somerset County, which is the County that includes Bedminster. Nat in Somerset County you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.

Nat: Hey Brian. Good morning. It's an honor to talk to you today.

Brian: And to have you.

Nat: I'm just calling in just to voice my anger with the president and the fact that he potentially started a superspreader event in my own County on studying to get my MPH at Rutgers and the fact that the president potentially started this massive event, five minutes down the road from my house just like gets me so upset, especially given that my father was infected with COVID and almost died back in March. Just to hear his negligence and the fact that he's just brushing it off saying that he's cured and everything, it just gets me really angry.

I was just wondering if you think he's really going to be held accountable for this. Even if it's not a superspreader event, the fact that he knowingly went after having positive contact is just so upsetting. I was just wondering if you actually think he'll be held accountable.

Brian: Nat, Can I get your reaction as someone whose father, you say almost died from COVID to this, that the president said yesterday.

President Trump: Don't be afraid of it. You're going to beat it. We have the best medical equipment. We have the best medicines all developed recently and you're got to beat it.

Brian: Nat.

Nat: I was listening to your show yesterday and I think one of your guests made an amazing point. The president should have been the last person to get infected with the amount of testing and the amount of precautions he had been taking. He should have been the last person to get COVID. The fact that he actually got COVID and now he's flaunting that he's healed with all of the resources at his disposal makes me even more-- you can't even write this stuff. It's insanity at the least. I just can't-- [chuckles]

Brian: Nat. Thank you. You're speechless. Thank you very much. I'm glad it sounds like your father is okay. Anita Kumar, his question is will the president be held accountable for this? Let me just try to get you to pin down one additional fact from the Bedminster timeline to the best of your ability, was he experiencing symptoms at Bedminster? We understand that he shortened the Minnesota rally the night before. To what degree can we say he was experiencing symptoms at Bedminster?

Anita: He hasn't said that. We do know that people that have seen him, that saw him both at that rally and then in New Jersey said that he seemed to be not himself and fatigued, but we haven't heard from them directly or from him directly on how he was feeling that day. I'll leave it out there that there are many, many things we don't know and I didn't mention this earlier, but I will now, one very important fact that they refuse to answer is when the president had his last negative test.

It's very important to know that because he went to so many different States, including New Jersey, including this debate where the former vice president Joe Biden was, when did he have that last negative test. They won't say if he's tested daily or when that last negative test-- they say, they don't want to look backwards, they want to move forward but, that is a really key point and just to the caller's other point about consequences, I don't know.

I don't know about New Jersey, but I will tell you that the Trump campaign goes to different States, has different rallies, where there aren't people wearing masks where the numbers exceed what the state is allowing. I haven't really seen any consequences to that.

Brian: Nancy Solomon from New Jersey Public Radio, there's been at least one criminal case in New Jersey already this year where a home health aide failed to disclose to a client allegedly that she had been exposed to someone who is COVID positive and was awaiting her own results. That's a criminal charge. If it's determined that Trump was feeling symptoms and knew about Hope Hicks, there could be criminal charges it seems to me, is anybody in New Jersey's law enforcement or Attorney General's office or anyone talking about that?

Nancy: Yes, Brian, governor Murphy mentioned yesterday that this is all a matter for the Attorney General and that he anticipates that the Attorney General's office will be investigating. He doesn't control the Attorney General's office and he tries to keep an arm's-length distance to give them the independence that you want from the attorney general but what he did say was that in all of these cases where someone violated either an executive order or just basic New Jersey law in terms of reckless endangerment of somebody else, that that's all something for the Attorney General to take up.

Brian: I want to ask you about Chris Christie after we do our top of the hour legal ID at 1101. This is WNYC FM HD AM New York, WNJT-FM 88.1, Trenton WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJY 89.3 Net Kong, and WNJO 90.3 Toms River, [unintelligible 00:27:57] New York and New Jersey Public Radio. Nancy, how is Chris Christie, who's saying what?

Nancy: He told Tom Moran, the editorial writer, and columnist at The Star-Ledger, I believe yesterday, but the call could have been the day before that he's feeling okay. He checked himself into Morristown Medical Center. That's the hospital near where he lives. Here is a person who is at risk. He is obese and he has lifelong asthma. He was hospitalized in 2012 for his asthma, he was having trouble breathing, so he said he was nervous this is what he told Tom Moran, but that he was feeling all right.

There's a bit of resentment that you see on social media and that people express about the fact that he was in close contact with the president and the president's staff didn't wear a mask, got infected, and is now using what is assumed to be his political clout. He is a lobbyist for the Atlantic Health System, which owns Morristown Medical Center, that he's using his clout to get treatment that a lot of people don't have access to, the antiviral treatment, checking into a hospital early before you have symptoms, that sort of thing.

Brian: Checking into a hospital that he's on the board of. Are there policy discussions and I think we're going to do a separate segment on this tomorrow, the COVID care that should be available to everybody based on what's been available to the president and Chris Christie but are there policy conversations that have started yet in New Jersey based on this resentment? Christie's own tweet on Saturday night was, "I checked myself into Morris--"

Brian: What's the name of the hospital, again?

Anita Kumar: Morristown Medical Center.

Brian: "Morristown Medical Center, I can make this decision on my own. I decided to, out of an abundance of caution, check myself into a hospital for a little while, like checking yourself into a hotel." Is there a policy discussion that has broken out at the state level, to make sure that everybody has the same rights?

Anita: Let me just say, when I read that tweet, as somebody who was one of the many journalists who've been covering this pandemic locally here in New Jersey, and the stories of people not being able to get treatment. Certainly, in April when the situation was dire, and people were waiting and waiting to get into an emergency room and sent home, even though they were highly symptomatic. Sent home because there was no space for them at the hospital. If they could breathe on their own, they were released and sent home.

I think a lot of people, it's understandable the level of resentment that people are feeling about this. To answer your question directly, I don't think it's come to that level yet of a policy discussion about access to care. I think that right now, the main concern is the contact-tracing and trying to stop this from becoming a major outbreak, and the frustration with getting the national Republicans in the White House to help the state to track down all of these people.

Brian: Anita Kumar, White House correspondent for political, last question, is that policy conversation breaking out yet in Washington? It's certainly breaking out on this show and among people I know. Are people looking at our healthcare system and saying, "Gosh, if I get COVID, I should be able to check myself into maybe not Walter Reed, but somewhere, and get the polyclonal antibodies and the Remdesivir, and the steroids that the President got at that level of early intervention?"

Anita: I think it's mixed. I think you are seeing people, just like you guys are talking about, saying, "I wish I could do that. That would make me feel safer. It would feel better, especially for loved ones." At the same time, there is obviously a recognition that, less with Chris Christie, of course, but more with President Trump, that he's the President of the United States. That he has a team of doctors. If you've seen these press conferences, it's not one doctor.

He's the President of United States and he's going to get the best care that there is in this country. I think that people understand that, realize that, that has nothing to do with him being Donald Trump. That would be any person in that job is going to get that state of the art care, both at the White House, and if they choose to take him somewhere else, like Walter Reed, then it wouldn't be there.

Yes, to me, there's more people talking here about, "Boy, his doctor thought he should go to the hospital and now he's leaving quickly. When the doctor said yesterday, he's not out of the woods yet. Why is he leaving? Is he leaving too early?" I'm actually hearing more about that. I think there is discussion now about healthcare in this country. This idea that if you need it, you can get it. If you're battling Coronavirus and after all these months, there's still not an idea or a thought that you really can get what you need, testing and treatment.

Brian: Anita Kumar, White House correspondent, and associate editor at Politico. Nancy Solomon, managing editor for New Jersey Public Radio. Thank you so much.

Anita: Thank you.

Nancy: Thank you.

 

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