Alison Stewart: This is all of it on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. If you are a person on the Internet, you've likely stumbled across a video of my next guest. Beginning in 2022, Dylan Mulvaney began posting publicly about her gender transition. She called her series Days of Girlhood and has now spent several years documenting her experience to trans womanhood. The videos are funny and vulnerable. Here's an early example. This is Day 4 of being a girl.

Dylan Mulvaney: "Day 4 of being a girl, and I am exhausted. The hair, the makeup, the clothes, the high heels, it's a lot to keep up with. I need to learn early on that those things do not make me a girl. It's what's in here that matters." I actually didn't shave my face today because I was like, "Dyl, even with your facial hair, you're a girl." Even though I'm having it removed, women can have facial hair, women can have body hair, and that's a beautiful thing. "That you are still a girl, Dylan. Okay? boohoo, I don't need all those things. I love you."

Alison Stewart: Dylan's videos earned millions of followers. A lot of people were supportive, but some of the response was hateful. Then, two years ago this month, Bud Light ran an advertisement during March Madness featuring Dylan. The ad sparked a massive backlash among people who objected to seeing a trans person working with their favorite beer. There was a boycott. Musician, Kid Rock, posted a video of himself shooting a case of Bud Light. Dylan took some time out of the public eye, but she's back.

She now has 9 million TikTok followers, a new memoir titled Paper Doll: Notes From A Late Bloomer, and a new podcast called The Dylan Hour, but first, Dylan Mulvaney joins me in studio. Dylan, thanks for being here.

Dylan Mulvaney: I'm so excited.

Alison Stewart: You know, this week marks the fifth anniversary of the COVID shutdown. You were performing in the Broadway tour of The Book of Mormon.

Dylan Mulvaney: I was.

Alison Stewart: Everything stopped, she went home to San Diego. What role do you think that downtime that we all had during the pandemic played in your journey towards self-discovery?

Dylan Mulvaney: Talking about the pandemic after the fact, sometimes people think it's cringe, but I think of it as the most important moment of my life because I had spent my life playing roles on stage in musicals. It was the first time that I really got to ask myself, since I was a small child, "Who am I without these external characters?" I think what it did was it gave me time to not only explore who it is that I am, but it also gave me privacy to try to start getting rid of my facial hair, change my pronouns, and have hard conversations. I think for a lot of people, it gave them a chance to hit the refresh button in a beautiful way, and do work on themselves that we might have not done had that not gone down.

Alison Stewart: What did you learn about yourself during that time?

Dylan Mulvaney: I think I was reminded of what was always there, which was the fact that I am a woman. I came out to my mom as a girl when I was four years old. I had to tuck that away for many years. That was something that I think given that I grew up in a very conservative Catholic family, there weren't a whole lot of options. I don't resent my family, nor the way that things worked out because I think everything does happen for a reason, but it was the time when I needed to come back to that. When I picked up my favorite parts of myself, because I had stripped them away for society, and to be seen as "normal," and I think I finally was able to see life in color.

Once I started going down that path, which was ultimately how I got here now, three years of transitioning, it was the path that I needed to take. It's the happiest path for me, and it's one that I'm so grateful that I went down.

Alison Stewart: It's so hard when you write a book because you write it, you send it to the publisher, then it comes time to publicize it, and it's a while later.

Dylan Mulvaney: You're the first person to ask me about this. I could not agree more because I wrote this. I'm 28 years old now. I started writing it when I was 25, and part of me is like, "Oh," but I think that a major theme of the book is earnestness and innocence in adults. I think that was really apparent in my early years of transition, and especially the first year in those initial videos. I think there's something really sweet about hearing my voice three years ago and how I was feeling. Sure, I feel a little different about certain things, but I think that it serves the greater story, which is we are constantly evolving. There is no finish line. We can constantly surprise ourselves. Isn't that a beautiful thing?

Alison Stewart: What would 28-year-old Dylan tell 25-year-old Dylan?

Dylan Mulvaney: Oh, honey, I would say to make sure to protect yourself, know who to listen to and when. I would tell her to not listen and read the comments because that's where a lot goes awry. I would honestly tell her what I would tell my four-year-old self, which is the parts of you that people are criticizing and trying to villainize you for are the best parts of yourself. That's your hyper femininity, that's your innocence, that is your camp, that is your quirks, and my softness.

I think a lot of people take my ease and softness and excitement towards life as infantilizing myself when really I find it to just be constantly being fascinated by the world in a world that thrives off pessimism, what it feels like in 2025. I think I would say that to her.

Alison Stewart: My guest, Dylan Mulvaney, Internet personality, trans advocate, actor, author. We're discussing her new memoir, Paper Doll: Notes From A Late Bloomer. Is it okay if we play that first video from Days of Girlhood?

Dylan Mulvaney: Oh, I guess. "Day one of being a girl and I have already cried three times. I wrote a scathing email that I did not send. I ordered dresses online that I couldn't afford. Then when someone asked me how I was, I said, 'I'm fine,' when I wasn't fine. How'd I do, ladies? Good? Girl power."

Alison Stewart: What went through your mind when you first hear that?

Dylan Mulvaney: I thought, "I hope whoever's listening to this doesn't turn it off because I want to be able to explain a few things." That was the first day I came up publicly on TikTok. I was doing stand up comedy in Los Angeles. I had been on hormones for a number of months. I've already had the difficult conversations with my family. I just want to make sure for any listeners out there that they didn't assume that I woke up that day and thought, "Oh, this would be fun. What a video concept?" No, I really had put so much time into my transition personally. Also, I had been living my life as non-binary for a year-and-a-half prior to that.

I ultimately knew that I think of my time as a non-binary human being to be kind of in Mario Kart, where you're hopping from a cloud to another platform. That was my little cloud for a second, but ultimately womanhood is where I was supposed to go. That video, I just think I had come out before as a 14-year-old, I guess gay, 24 as non-binary. I was like, "Okay, I want to find the funny in coming out," because usually they're very intense crying videos. It is an emotional thing. It's a very serious thing to come out as a new identity.

Yet, I was like, "I wonder if I can make people laugh," because this is something that some people find uncomfortable. I really was thinking about my friends and family that already knew me, the people on the Internet that would see it, and they did. I think that I then had to do some clearing up after that video because there was a lot of people who supported me on day one and shout out to the OGs, but I think there was a lot of other people, including trans folks, who didn't know what my intentions were in that video.

Alison Stewart: Some parts of that video are funny, though.

Dylan Mulvaney: Thank you.

Alison Stewart: It's supposed to be a little bit funny, right?

Dylan Mulvaney: Yes, there was humor.

Alison Stewart: There is.

Dylan Mulvaney: There's poking fun, and there is still a sense of earnestness, which is, how'd I do? Because I think that is what I ultimately am looking for still is a connection to other women.

Alison Stewart: Your Internet fame grew so quickly.

Dylan Mulvaney: Crazy. It feels overnight because TikTok, I think set this new precedent for people to go viral that didn't really have access to before. We had YouTubers. We've had Instagram, but a lot of the time, even on Instagram, you were following people that you already knew or major, major celebrities. On TikTok, it's pushing out videos of normal human beings living their lives. That's what I think happened with me. I had a million followers in less than a month from posting that first video.

Alison Stewart: What did you think to do with all of these followers?

Dylan Mulvaney: Oh. I don't think I actually knew what having a platform was until after what I like to call Beergate. In my mind, I had 10 million best friends in my bedroom with me. I always approached everything like a FaceTime call. I would tell them about my day, I would tell them about the new things I was trying, or what was going on in my transition. I think that it felt like they became my support system. They were my cheerleaders.

Alison Stewart: One of the things you did early on, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you apologized every time you made a mistake.

Dylan Mulvaney: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Not even a mistake, just like a goof, something you just goofed up. Why did you apologize?

Dylan Mulvaney: I'm thinking back to, even on that second day, I actually made an apology that was like, "I'm so sorry, if I offended any women out there. This was meant--" Over explaining the situation, which I think as a comedian, you usually take the luxury of not having to explain every joke, but I think as a trans person, you don't always have that luxury. There needs to be a very clear boundary set.

What I didn't know about at the time was TERFs, which were trans exclusionary radical feminists who had infiltrated my comments. I wasn't well-versed enough in trans terminology to even know that that was going to be a part of the reaction. I really was speaking to women who weren't going to have my back, nor currently have my back, but I didn't know that then.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Dylan Mulvaney. She's trans advocate, actor, author, and we're discussing her new memoir, Paper Doll: Notes from a Late Bloomer. Throughout the book, you chronicle your relationship with your mom.

Dylan Mulvaney: Yes. Hi, mom.

Alison Stewart: Hi, mom. Your mom had some mixed feelings?

Dylan Mulvaney: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Is that fair to say?

Dylan Mulvaney: I write it in the book as she had to grieve her son and she gained a daughter. What I thought was really beautiful was when I shared the pages that she was included in and the stories that she was in, which I've kept my family very private, off the Internet. This book felt like the right place to talk about them.

I feel really lucky that when we were having the conversations about what I was putting in the book, that I made it clear to her that it was more productive for me to share our ups and downs and the long journey which ultimately led to acceptance and love versus just putting a bow on the family situation because I think this version of life, which is the real version and the authentic version of what happened is ultimately going to hopefully help a lot of other families or folks that don't know how to accept their trans kids or their coworkers.

Alison Stewart: You write, "With this many external opinions, the dark thoughts win. Maybe everything you felt about your gender is actually mental illness like they say it is. You've trusted women your entire life. Why not believe them now?" How did you learn to keep your dark thoughts at bay throughout your transitioning process?

Dylan Mulvaney: In the book, I do them as little dark cloud bubbles. That was definitely one of the darkest of the clouds. I think really early on, I am still a people pleaser, but I've gotten over certain aspects of that, but I so desperately wanted to be accepted by everyone. In some ways, as the millions hit the Follow button, it felt like that, but I still was seeing pushback.

Then in media generally, just the way that people were speaking about trans people, including now we're in 2025, which feels like such a dark period to be living through as a trans person that I needed to find ways to protect my heart and my mental health that were separate from the Internet. A lot of that has to do with really good therapy. Also, people that I can trust that not only either knew me before or knew me well enough to let me know that those people weren't true.

Actually, it's been some of the iconic women that I've looked up to since I was a kid that have told me that I am perfect as I am. They see me as a woman, they celebrate my femininity, they include me. That has been such a great gift that I've been given.

Alison Stewart: You talk openly about how privileged you are in being able to access gender affirming care pretty quickly.

Dylan Mulvaney: Yes.

Alison Stewart: These procedures can be really expensive.

Dylan Mulvaney: Absolutely.

Alison Stewart: What has having access to gender affirming care meant to you?

Dylan Mulvaney: I feel like for my transition, I had a fast lane pass from Disneyland because of what that platform did for me. Even those brand deals, really early on, they were what I was using to pay for my gender affirming care. A lot of trans people don't have health insurance. They're trying to just get by in general. There's such an issue with even trying to be hired as a trans person, let alone get what we need when it comes to gender affirming care.

What it did for me was it helped me look in the mirror and see the girl that I always was, the woman that I've always wanted to be and knew that I am. I think if people, while I think it might be hard sometimes to put yourself in another person's shoes, but to trust trans people enough to let you know that it is just as euphoric, beautiful, and what a feeling to have that you can finally feel safe in your own body.

Alison Stewart: You talked about Beergate.

Dylan Mulvaney: Oh, yes.

Alison Stewart: You talk about it-

Dylan Mulvaney: I went there

Alison Stewart: -in the book a lot. You don't mention the beer. Is that legal or is that a personal choice?

Dylan Mulvaney: Maybe a little bit of both. Sure, I'm not looking to ruffle any more feathers than I already have, but I did that because it's less about the brand specifically and more about the situation at hand, which is the targeting of a trans person in a way that should have never happened, but it did, because that is what we're living through right now.

Alison Stewart: It's interesting. Why do you think this partnership with this beer, let's call it beer-

Dylan Mulvaney: Beer.

Alison Stewart: -why do you think it captured the anger of so many people in this country, why they felt they had to come for you?

Dylan Mulvaney: First of all, I want to preface. I do love beer. I always have. I think I became the poster child at a time when the extremist conservative far right was looking for something to alienate, to make a common enemy out of. I think during a time when there was such a push and pull of media, it became the perfect storm because what it gave to them was this very classic American brand that used me for one video. I just want to clear up. It was one video on Instagram, only on Instagram. You would have thought I was on billboards, or in a camo bikini with fireworks behind me, but no. I think it just gave people the opportunity to finally say what they thought.

I think we're living through a time of the Barbie movie, and this girl dinner, and a huge celebration of femininity. I think, unfortunately, trans women are not being allowed that same celebration. I think that celebration of femininity scares a lot of people because what does it mean to celebrate those soft parts of ourselves and the parts of ourselves that maybe don't put on such a tough exterior.

Alison Stewart: Given all that you've been through, how has your relationship to fame changed?

Dylan Mulvaney: I don't think of myself as famous still. I have my first billboard in Times Square today. I was walking by, and a few people asked for photos, and I still am like, "Oh, do we--" I thought maybe is it a cousin? I am like, "How do I know this person?" Then it does hit me. I'm like, "They've been watching me online, or maybe they've enjoyed something I put out there." I think I will always be grateful because I think right now, as a trans person, we need to take all the allyship that we can get in whatever form that comes in.

Also, I get a lot of hope because a lot of my followers are Gen Z, their early 20s, late teens. It gives me hope that we are going to eventually move in the right direction. I think that I don't feel safe to put out what I did online anymore in the way that I was.

Alison Stewart: This book is coming out during an administration that has been openly anti-trans.

Dylan Mulvaney: Yes.

Alison Stewart: First of all, what has that been like?

Dylan Mulvaney: I didn't know. I wrote the book. It's been over-

Alison Stewart: Three years.

Dylan Mulvaney: Yes. I've been writing it for three years, and I had to hit a pause. I think we finally hit the pause button in April or May of last year. I didn't know what administration would be here when I selected this date. I think that as frustrating as it is, that this is what we're working with. I think that this book is a piece of trans joy during a time when it feels hard to find it. I think we as trans people need to be finding as much joy because it is a direct fight back at what they're saying. Because if I'm finding joy, if I'm finding love, success, if I can put a book out right now, that means that what they're saying about me isn't true.

Alison Stewart: You're going to have a podcast.

Dylan Mulvaney: I'm having a podcast.

Alison Stewart: When do you start your podcast?

Dylan Mulvaney: The Dylan Hour, it's March 19th with Lemonada Media. I feel like so much of what my life has been has been making videos in my bedroom by myself, that I wanted to finally be able to sit across from a real person and have a conversation. Because of this success that I found online, it's put me in a lot of rooms with really iconic people. I wanted to let my followers in on what some of these conversations are like with some of my friends.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Dylan Mulvaney. The name of her memoir is Paper Doll: Notes from a Late Bloomer. Thank you for coming into the studio.

Dylan Mulvaney: Oh, thank you. This was lovely.