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What makes your really rock with these girls even brought. A crime rather than cooperate with bullies of women voters of New York with your knowledge the whole thing Betty said. Good evening and welcome to what makes New York City run a program presented by the League of Women Voters and Betty shap in the member is to Adrian Lim and bowed from the Board of Education staffers join me tonight to discuss the ways and means of getting a school building in New York City thank you for coming tonight Mr Blumenthal. As administrator of the Office of School planning and research I guess you must be involved directly or indirectly in the building the school from the time it's just the gleam in a parent's organizations until it gets completed what is your department's major responsibility will as you say. Principally our job is to plan the needed city schools and see them through from the initial stages of a budget line of capital budget line until the very end when the building opens Of course we receive considerable assistance in this task from a variety of other city agencies including the office of the budget director the board of the city council one of hers and so forth but basically the job is to react to the needs of the city schools as we see them and bring them to completion the home school while in twenty five minute program we can't possibly cover all of the procedures that go into a getting a school building so I'd like to concentrate on two things first they kind of planning and research in information it results in a school being located one place as opposed to another and then secondly something about they someone is Collop a loss of a of a building. A question of how you decide way going to put a. Building What do you have a list the priorities that make you. Internally this is a public document it's called the school building program the city of New York and it's published here at the time when public hearings are be gone on the new capital budget that would coincide roughly with the present time although the public hearings before the Board of Education will take place in September the nineteenth of this year this is where parents groups could come I don't advocate a school in their area as opposed to another right modified this is already the second step on the gravel budget has already been reviewed by local school boards at the local district but getting back to your question each year we publish another public document which is called the Neighborhood studies of New York City the city is broken up into. Proximately seventy five neighborhoods. Here we study the override. Indices which are related to school in need including birth rates age groupings of the population mobility. The status of existing school buildings and the into grade ratios in other words the rate at which children progress from one grade to another. And then we make in the neighborhood studies and evaluation of existing plans in so far as it meets the needs of this particular community. Now it's this relationship between community need as projected in the studies and the actual school plant which gives us the index of what we need for future years when you're drawing up this information do you work actively with parents argue is Asians in group in the neighborhood yet but not when we grow up the information per se in other words parents can give us very little information in support of birth rates are concerned Gratian ratios or they might tell us how they get so high but the fact of the matter is that this basic information is something that from health department to the punishment and other sources we approach parents at the second level and that is when we bring in the local school board for example to discuss with them the particular plan for their immediate community not suppose a local school board doesn't like what you're proposing or they often don't. And what is very coy then do you are your plans changed ever as a result of their actions yes we depend to a very great extent upon the advice of local school boards and parents associations related to them in a variety of ways for intimate personal knowledge of the local situation you simply cannot have this kind of knowledge at the central headquarters meaningless and under the board's present decentralization program we are going to take this even a step further in previous years we met with the assistant superintendent and we depended upon him to be the sounding board the transmission lines the opinions of local school board of the local school board by every assistant superintendent incorrect That's correct thirty five of them are probably correct now it is this procedure which some local school boards criticized in and complained that the transmission line was somewhat foggy because the assistant superintendent had certain of his own particular projects so that for future meetings we are going to actually request that each local school board derive an drafted tone local capital program of improvements. Which it will then have public hearings on in its local neighborhood subsequent to that they will send these recommendations to the Board of Education and then we will proceed with drafting the overall city program in other words instead of giving them a latch key bases where everything is all ready for them and then all they can do is criticize it we will ask on the grassroots but of course this is not going to solve all the complaints because there is a limited amount of money and you can't possibly do everything everybody wants which gets me to the question if you say in the local school board in Brooklyn documents the need for major repairs or for new buildings and the local school board in Manhattan does the same thing. You got to choose perhaps between doing what one or the other wants. When you have a. Schedule of priorities then how much does integration the need to integrate the schools regulate influence this decision I knew that would subject would come up sort of a later perhaps it sort of was. The subject of integration and so far as repairs and maintenance is concerned. Really is somewhat. Tortured or forced relationship the subject of a new building is another matter generally speaking the priority for modernizing a building and by modernization we mean you know changing the facilities as well as improving electrical heating. Generally speaking this kind of priorities based on the age of the building and we do have some buildings that are terribly older yes indeed we have right now one hundred nine buildings in use in New York City present time which predate one thousand nine hundred one hundred nine. Are these among the buildings that they have been former Housing Commission buildings commissioners and had so many guile ations and well known of them although not they're not exclusively reserved for this particular group when you said repairs maintenance of the buildings was somewhat tortured matter when you spoke of integration would you elaborate and yet. There are people who feel that the buildings of this nature are generally reserved for the ghetto areas because nothing could be further from the truth and actually any study of the type of school building in ghetto areas will reveal that in general these plants are relatively new and there's good reason for that the ghetto is home grown into ghettos in most cases in comparatively recent years because of this new buildings have been built to satisfy emergency situations consequently in general the condition of schools in the so-called yet how areas in school plans is better I would say than in many other areas of the city on the other hand the effect of a depressed type of building and by that I mean an old type of building predating one thousand nine hundred in a ghetto area seems to be totally out of proportion with the nature of the building itself I'm saying this rather bluntly that you can have in other words the same type of building. In a so called silk stocking and not have the same reaction to it that you get when you have it and know that I've been there by now I think this is a host US Geological problem that comes in in all areas and I and I said dad today well what about the location of a new school building not to locate it where you have enough children to fill it up the integration of a group plan integration factor when you are determining on a site do you work with the housing authority an urban renewal group and so forth to to get the site and to know for sure you're going to have kids to go to it. It doesn't work quite that way we have to go first to the local school board and we determine in the first instance where we think the school should be located one point of view of the children has to serve the grade level it has to always foremost know and the question is can we integrate the school building in this OK and then we go to the local school board and because their local citizens we have for their vices to what possible within this area which has been designated might be most susceptible to condemnation or taking. Now once we have them on the arse hard we are in agreement with them we don't go before the mayor site selection board with our proposal on the site selection board consists in the first instance and measure members from the city planning commission for example and the City bombing commission by its very nature contains within it within itself the elements for taking into account public housing housing redevelopment board projects and all of the multiplicity of agencies which work toward better housing the city so we depend upon the city planning commission for this kind of advice and you give it to us then in the second instance in the matter of real estate values we have a representative on the board from the Department of Real Estate and I'm on him for his expertise on land and you have a bird. And of course now the political elements and the sociological elements the neighborhood element become the particular problems of the borough president who is listen to very early on that. One should get your site selected then you have to get it approved but I don't work from board about a side selection board you have to have the money appropriated by the Board of Estimate the city council and the mayor other words to just about everybody has a piece of this action. When you want to get past this day so that you have the money appropriated and you have the approval of bad bad eyesight How long does it take to get a school ready go put it as a rule if you don't have strikes and hope for it is a an average and is only an average of some pretty wide ranging time elements it takes about a year and a half in the case of an elementary and junior high school or intermediate school going to build from the date of contract in other words when the contractor has been designated and is free to go on to the site to build but I couldn't give you more information than I because we have had takings of sites Well for example where there is to the old man of which take a few days that he has made many years on the property at the end of it no problem on the other hand we had condemnations which were taken from him for years including a site where you have for example in the case of one Manhattan school in the Lower East Side eight hundred tenants in the particular block would be relocated of course this is one of the major problems and in any major undertaking in the city is why I asked how closely you work with other groups because that I mean other branches of the city government because the relocation of people is so important. To what extent is the charge that I hear added frequently that there are many schools that are underpopulated true that they have been built or. That they were this thing schools and people moved away from all this is very true it's by no means an idle dog it's one which is easily sustained by simply looking at you Liz Asian tables which we publish each year. There are areas in New York City let's take Brooklyn for example Southwest Brooklyn in the community like Brokaw Benson East Bay Ridge there's a practically a an arc of such communities bordering on the Atlantic Ocean in the narrows these communities are set of very early in the century and came to their full flower you might say in the twenty's sometime subsequent to this period after which by the way we built our schools of course to meet the rising tide of population there was an ebb and we found that out of this these days are now aging communities and consequently the schools are grossly under populated in some cases as low as fifty percent. In occupancy and this while other schools are sometimes tremendously overcrowded. Can't this be handled by bussing kids to those schools I know this is a terribly controversial subject but I can think that some parents might prefer to have their children ride a bus and go to school on a pole shift in the not such crowded conditions where you're aware the Board of Education is open enrollment policy Yes Any child who wants to go to a school which is listed under utilized and which is in an area where there is a favorable ethnic balance as we call it kind is more than welcome to go to such a school add to the expense and so forth transportation but this is done primarily for integration memory and buses were put on having a full day at school perhaps more. People would be willing to have their kids but well actually we've done that we've emphasized the two aspects of the bifocal a bifurcated type of arrangement we asked them to go in the interest of improving ethnic. Distributions of course but addition to that they recognize that their own local school usually are overcrowded and this is an even better reason for going perhaps well the answer is of course that many people do take advantage of it there are thousands of children take advantage of this program each year but on the other hand they trip usually to the the area is not an easy one even by common carrier by private busing systems common carrier makes it almost impossible sometimes out to get someone to buses for example we have a good deal of overcrowding which developed recently in a community like East New York I would dearly love to be able to Central New York on open enrollment to Bensonhurst world. But the trip is an onerous one and then inclement weather most parents look upon it as a. Likely an impossible task when they don't think about it and you simply can't move the buildings you know you can't move the buildings in that you can't force parents and their children so that's where we're left for the benefit of those who tend to mate this is what makes New York City run a program for Zen and by the League of Women Voters of New York City and Betty shat members and I partnered tonight is Mr Adrian bloom and Dowd administrator of the Board of Education Office of School planning and research. Mr Blumenthal Let's talk about the actual buildings themselves now wouldn't it be quicker and cheaper if we had as standard architectural plan for each kind of school one for the elementary schools one for the high schools that a poet. Yes it would be easier and it would be quicker but the question really resolves itself into how quick much quicker and how much he knew how to bat cheaper and cheaper how much cheaper and we've made a number of studies in fact over the years a Board of Education has were used a number of plans particularly at the elementary school level and we find that the problem of reuse is related to the problem of sight. If you acquire a perfectly flat site with no subsoil conditions as the engineers call them then you have a good possibility of reusing a plan and of saving a good bit of money on the other hand this almost never happens usually sites have subsoil conditions or are subject to grade conditions or out rock outcropping or other undesirable problems relating to the the land itself and here when the architect comes in and has to revise as we say or adapt the original plan to the new conditions we frequently find that it takes almost as much time and almost as much money in the Riyadh it takes in the plans. But the second reason is probably a more forceful one and one which deserves more attention in light of Malin these programs for better design within the city we find that the design of the school one year very frequently does not satisfy the educational people for the next year in other words a board of education may join the course of the Year time initiate new programs which require implementation within the school planned and so the best thing we can say is that we should keep the buildings as flexible as possible can you give us an idea of what kind of new president will get why a different kind of folding choice quite recently there's been a good deal of accent on what we call team teaching you know at the elementary school yet particularly now the team teaching arrangement as it's called has implications not only for curriculum and for assignment of teachers but also for the layout of the school the spaces within which the teachers are going to function ideally a team of teachers should be assigned an area an area which can be made or which is susceptible I should say to conversion into one law teaching area or audience situation smaller areas for individual classes and yet smaller areas for individual or small group teaching and this kind of arrangement physically is not easy to encompass within a school bill. Envelope unless the building has been planned to take account of that you have to have sliding doors and thing that facet of it exactly and you have to have also taken account of color the spaces X. that grows. Up and down movement vertical movement which means staircase in the appropriate places fire regulations all of these militate in the direction of a different concept in the school plan as opposed to an adaptation of an existing or previous plan you can't really go in and put this into a an existing building that can when you were trying right now it's very interesting to that question just recently this spring there was a competition for example in one of our intermediate schools which need modernization in the Bronx and as a result of this competition about fifty architects submitted plans the prize winner was is going to be given the contract to do exactly that to take an existing junior high school and within the envelope of this two year high school with a minimum expenditure hopefully to create the potential space potential for a modern program. What about. The color tiles in the murals in the things like that that are in this go I'm and insane here that the cost and. Whether this really benefits the students out you know the warranty expense I think the answer to that is we never did beat our grandmothers our mothers the amount of course involved in the decoration of the building is so minimal comparison to the overall cost of the building itself the structure of the land and so forth that it's actually ludicrous we spend minimal amounts of money in decorating the building even the exterior walls of the interior and as a matter of fact every saving that you make in the type of materials that you use in a building which is to live to proximity seventy years always comes back to haunt you in the form of additional maintenance give you just one typical example the flooring of our classrooms you tile I fell tiles if we had to rattle in the car doors in the hallways after about ten years we wouldn't have the problems of replacement so we have a number of schools that look much better I think you've laid a bogeyman to rest very well I have time for just a quickie if the city succeeds in buying one of the ships then that the mayor speaks abt will it be used for a special type of school or just a regular school. At this point I must beg what I haven't the vaguest notion how it will be you right now we're questioning the very usability itself the feasibility of conversion it so far as course space is realised is concerned I couldn't say at this point what kind of boat carting the newspaper they tried first for the Queen Mary and then for a Navy ship and most recently there's B.S. trying to buy the Queen Elizabeth I can think that kids would have a great time it's Thanks have to go to school and boy that an ocean liner Well I'm not particularly so happy of the ocean liner conflict or. Held in locally without travelling around the city where they have a good start on it Mr Blumenthal I prayed we have to close now and thank you for joining me tonight Michael I'm sure that we both fervently hope that by next week when those buildings for which you are responsible are supposed to open the teachers' strike will have been averted and this program what makes New York City run is presented every Thursday evening and then thirty by the League of Women Voters next week I'll be discussing other aspects of public education in New York City with a representative of the Board of Education is a women voters is a nonpartizan organization that urges all citizens to know about and participate in their government for information about the levy and afraid leaflet entitled What makes New York City run then to stamp self-addressed envelope to what makes New York City run Debbie N Y S A New York New York one hundred zero zero seven thank you Mrs Zack Let's include some nice broadcasts of what makes New York City run going to Grant's bride by your silly season and who operates with always of women both. Again and who we thought was the evening at nine thirty or other of these broadcasts. If you.