[music]

Announcer: Listener-supported WNYC Studios.

[music]

Kerry Nolan: This is All of It. I'm Kerry Nolan, in for Alison Stewart. Thanks for spending part of your day with us, whether you're listening on the radio or live streaming, or on-demand. On today's show, we'll talk about the criteria and channels collection of hip hop's finest movie moments. Rock and Roll Hall of Fame guitarist, Nils Lofgren has a new album out. He joins us for a listening party. Singer, Roxana Amed, and pianist-composer, Frank Carlberg will perform live in studio ahead of their performance tonight at Joe's Pub. That's the plan. Let's get this started with vacationing with kids.

[music]

Kerry Nolan: Even if summer winds down, there's still time to take a last-minute vacation before the fall, but if you're a parent with young kids, even that word 'vacation' might give you anxiety. They might be picky eaters and snacks to pack, last-minute diaper changes at the airport, long car rides where kids sing along to their favorite Disney songs over and over and over again. In the midst of all of this chaos, you might be asking yourself, "Am I even on vacation?" It's a question that Amil Niazi tackles in her new parenting column at The Cut.

As a mom with young kids, Amil called vacationing with kids, "Merely parenting with scenery," but despite the frequent potty breaks, and the hours of building sandcastles at the beach with her kids, she finds that embracing the chaos is the secret sauce at making the trip enjoyable for everybody. Welcome to the show, Amil.

Amil Niazi: Thanks for having me.

Kerry Nolan: It's our pleasure. Listeners, are you a parent who's traveled with young kids? What worked? What didn't? What's the most stressful part about it? If you have a story to share, good or bad, we want to hear from you. Maybe you want some tips on how to conquer that vacation stress-free. Join in on the conversation, call or text 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. Maybe you have a parenting tip that you want to share with our listeners, you can always reach us on our socials as well, they're at All of It/WNYC. Your column is titled, "There's No Such Thing as Vacation with Young Kids", was there a specific trip you went on that made you think that?

Amil Niazi: Every trip I've done, and I've traveled pretty extensively with my two kids, my oldest is five and my youngest is three. I'm actually expecting a third so we'll see how that goes. From the very first flight I took with my firstborn son, he was just five months old. I remember having a blowout, parents of young babies will know exactly what that means, but it's basically a poop incident. I had it all over my shirt, I was breastfeeding. My husband had to try and change the diaper without removing the baby. It's complicated, it's messy, it's loud, it can be very chaotic. It's just gone on and on from that very first trip. Like I said, I'm into it now.

Kerry Nolan: Do you think there's a common misconception that parents have when they travel with little ones? Do they think it's going to be too easy, or are they just overwhelmed?

Amil Niazi: I think, before I had kids, I just assumed if you packed the right stuff, if you were super organized, that it could be simple. I think that that's something that you can plan as much as you want, parents to know this, whether it's a trip to the playground or it's an airplane ride across an ocean. You have your best-laid plans and then there's everything that comes after. Kids are unpredictable, they have many different needs depending on the moment, depending on the situation. I think that that's a big mistake we make, is thinking that if we just bring the right stuff, if we are totally prepared, we have all the snacks, that everything's going to go to plan. We should be more prepared for what we don't know.

Kerry Nolan: Sometimes it's not just parents' perceptions or misconceptions, it can be the travelers around you. They'll see a family coming on the plane, and they sigh, or they roll their eyes like, "Oh, please, I hope they're not sitting next to me." How do you deal with that? Do you deal with that?

Amil Niazi: I think for me, that's honestly one of the hardest parts. I can deal with the blowouts, I can deal with tantrums, I can deal with running out of snacks, but for me, the most stressful part of it is how other people react and how other people are feeling. I think there's a misconception that parents are really unaware of our surroundings and how other people are feeling about our big families and our loud kids, but it's quite the opposite. I think especially moms who are so anxious about making sure that we're not imposing, that we're not ruining your flight, that we're not ruining your vacation in the process.

I find that the hardest part of traveling is how are other people going to react when my toddler inevitably wants to run around the plane or gets upset because the iPad is not working, and how can I minimize their discomfort. I really think we end up, as parents, putting our discomfort at the very, very bottom of that list.

Kerry Nolan: If you're just joining us, my guest is Amil Niazi. She's a writer for the parenting column, The Hard Part at The Cut. We're talking about vacationing with your kids. We'd love to hear your stories. Give us a call at 212-433-9692. We want to hear the good, the bad, and the ugly. Let's start with Sharon in Queens. Hi, Sharon. Welcome to the show.

Sharon: Hi. I've been traveling with my daughter and granddaughter since she was six months old. I have told my daughter that I will travel with her whether it's long distance or flight because I try to take the load off of her. I do some of the activities at a resort, and then she can lay at the beach and vice versa, so we all have a good time. Also, I try to tell my daughter to lean back, because vacation is not about planning. Vacation is about enjoying the experience with your child because you work so hard, your child wants to be with you wherever it is.

I try to just give those lessons of a grandmother, and I also show my daughter the pictures of how we had such a great time. You forget about what is the experience because after COVID, we should value all experiences with all of our family.

Kerry Nolan: Thank you so much, Sharon. That's great. I love, "Vacation is not about planning," although some planning has to happen. [chuckles] Let's talk with Ray in Freehold. Hi, Ray. Welcome to All of It.

Ray: Hi. Good afternoon. How are you?

Kerry Nolan: Good. Thanks.

Ray: 17 years ago, I remember I was taking my son's nursery, and I was listening to the radio, and it said, "Here's a great travel tip with kids." Said, "When your children don't know how [unintelligible 00:07:56] distances or time, tell them that while you're traveling, that your trip started, and it was at the tip of their toes, and that the trip will end when we reach the top of their head."

When you're the third of the way done with the traveling, you could say, "All right, we're at your kneecaps," or halfway, "We're at your belly button. We're almost there," and it's the top of the head. That really has done the trick for my kids, and it's always quieted them down when I tell them exactly where they are and they can relate to it-

Kerry Nolan: That's true.

Ray: -rather than time resistance.

Kerry Nolan: That's terrific, Ray. Thank you so much for your call. What do you think, Amil?

Amil Niazi: That's very cute. I'm going to try it. We're actually traveling to Vancouver to see my dad on Saturday, so [chuckles[ I'm going to try it with my two kids and see how it goes. I love what Sharon said about not worrying about the planning, but one thing that she brings up that I think is so important I didn't get to in my column is, traveling with family or traveling with other people who don't have kids, or who don't have small kids who can help out, and what a difference it makes if it's not just the nuclear family unit. If you can actually spread out the responsibility, that is the secret to having a vacation with small kids.

Kerry Nolan: Now, your article focuses a little less on the doom and gloom of traveling with kids, but really more on the joys behind it. Can you give us an example of a particularly joyful trip?

Amil Niazi: I do try to find the joy in every trip because like Sharon said, it is about the experience. I try not to have expectations of how it's going to go, and I just try and roll with it and take pleasure in what's unfolding. Our last really big trip was last August and we were driving from Toronto, Ontario to the east coast of Canada, which is basically a three-day road trip with a four-year-old and a two-year-old, it was a lot but we ended up having so much fun and we turned motel room nights, and hotel swimming pools into part of the vacation. I just have such a strong, beautiful memory of that trip, which I think could have been harrowing.

I listened to the song, Let it Go, many many, many times. We've come to enjoy it. We ended up belting it out as a family. That is just so memorable and wonderful to me. I could have sold it as like, "Oh my god, I spent three days in a car with my two small kids, it was a disaster." For me, it was like, "I got to be with my family for three days and we made the best of it." That's how I was trying to get across that. The chaos can be as beautiful as when everything goes to plan.

Kerry Nolan: Let's take another call Shimmy in Rockland County, welcome to All of It.

Shimmy: Thank you. My experience has been, I have triplet girls. When they were doing the year, the summer between kindergarten and first grade, we bought an inexpensive motorhome. The wife was, that time, a teacher, but she had a vacation just as well. We traveled to different parts of the eastern side of the country, limited area, not too much traveling. We had a very wonderful time. We loaded a lot of good games, and we ate and we slept. We watched and we did a lot of things. It was relatively inexpensive relative to what you have to do with three little girls. It was a very good experience.

Kerry Nolan: Thank you so much for calling, Shimmy. That's great. Amil, you've mentioned in your column and we've talked a little about it, that vacationing became a lot easier when you relinquished control. That's almost zen-like. You just let it be, or do you?

Amil Niazi: That's obviously the best version of myself. The parents I've constructed in my fantasy world. Of course, I am an A-type person, I want things to be in control, I want things to go how I've imagined they're going to go. In every situation where I have tried to do that, it's blown up in my face, or like I mentioned blown out across my shirt, white shirt, just to make that detail clear. I've just learned, throughout the years again, having traveled with my kids since they were infants, that the best thing to do is to lean into it and to allow myself to appreciate when things unfold as they're going to as opposed to how I want them to go or imagine them to go.

I think every parent knows that that is just and it's something you learn after you've had another or as your first kid gets older that we can only do so much to control the situation, pack the snacks, make sure you have enough diapers, have wipes on hand because those are the things that are really going to trip you up. Everything else just tried to allow it to be and I know it does sound like I'm pitching a self-help book but I really I'm certainly not advanced at this. I'm doing my best and that should be every parent's mantra, do your best and allow that to be okay.

Kerry Nolan: My guest is Amil Niazi, writer for the parenting column, The Hard Part at The Cut. We're going to take a quick break and come back, talk a little bit more about maybe setting some discipline boundaries and learning how to travel well as a kid. We want to hear from you as well. Our phone number is 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. This is All of It, stay with us.

[music]

Kerry Nolan: This is All of It on WNYC. I'm Kerry Nolan in for Alison Stewart. My guest today is Amil Niazi. She's a writer for the parenting column, The Hard Part at The Cut. Her column is "There's no such thing as a vacation with young kids", so we thought it would be a great idea to talk with Amil and get some of her perspectives on traveling with children but we want yours as well.

If you have a story to share whether it's good or bad, maybe you have a tip that you want to share with us, what worked when you traveled with your kids? What didn't? Give us a call, 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. Let's start off with a call, Karen in Princeton. Welcome to All of It.

Karen: Howdy. Can you hear me?

Kerry Nolan: Hi, yes, we can hear you.

Karen: Thank you. I'm a grandmother. I've been traveling with kids since I was a kid myself before seatbelts. My top tip of all is anytime you're going to a restaurant, or on the airplane, ask for a bowl of ice cubes. For little kids, they are beautiful, they're interesting, they make noises, they're shiny, they're not only-

Kerry Nolan: [laughs] [unintelligible 00:16:00] idea.

Karen: -they're edible, and if they fall on the floor, there's no harm done. If they fall on clothing, there's no harm done. Enjoy the trips.

Kerry Nolan: Thank you so much. Amil, if we could, let's go back to just prior to the break when we were talking about giving up control, there are some parents who might be scared to do that. You can plan as you said, you can plan, you can pack but sometimes it just goes awry. Do you have any other tips for not losing your mind?

Amil Niazi: Yes, it's hard to lose your mind. For me, it's been about I love the ice cube tip, I'm going to try that, very, very smart. I do have those distractions on hand. Another thing I have done is, when my son was younger when he was a toddler around 18 months, I would wrap little toys in tin foil. Then he would spend a ton of time unwrapping them and discovering them and it was very exciting.

Having those things on hand, so that when you are in a panic moment, you've got a backup, you're like, "Okay, let me get out the ice cubes or let me get out the tin foil toys," because the more we can equip ourselves, the more in control we will feel and then the spiral can be stopped before it starts. Then I think when the kids see you uncomfortable and spinning out of control, it really helps no one. That's where people get into situations where the trip is a disaster before it even starts.

Kerry Nolan: We got a text from a listener who sat on a five-hour car ride with two children that tended to argue, we made a deal that if they got along, they got $25 to spend at the toy store on whatever they wanted. This worked with a few reminders, but it also kept our budget down. That's-

Amil Niazi: Very smart.

Kerry Nolan: -very smart. Let's talk a little bit about discipline. Vacations are great, you get to blow out your regular schedule but there are ground rules. What are some of the ones that you set with your kids before you start a trip?

Amil Niazi: That's a hard one because most of us tend to get a lot more lax when we're traveling. Things like screen time and the kind of foods they're allowed to eat suddenly goes out the window. I think that that's something that you can embrace and say, "I know you're only allowed this much time on the iPad at home, but it's free rein when we're on the airplane or in the car."

You still have to set those limits and set the ground rules before you start traveling so that everyone has an understanding of what's coming. Really, talking kids through how things are going to unfold, "We're going to pack, we're going to wake up early, we're going to get to the airport. This is how it's going to go," because when kids are prepared and understand the plan, it's also easier for them to then understand the rules and what's expected of them so-

Kerry Nolan: What happen-

Amil Niazi: -that's what I try and do with my kids.

Kerry Nolan: -what happens if they break the rules, how do you handle that?

Amil Niazi: It's hard. Every parent knows you don't want for other people to see you either being too hard or too lax but I do exactly what I do at home if we're in the playground, if we're in the schoolyard is I talk to my kids, I let them know the expectations. If they're breaking those expectations, we talk about it. I know it, the hard thing for us is, you don't want to take, for example, the iPad away one hour into a five-hour flight because that's going to be bad for everyone.

I think you change your expectations of how you're going to discipline when you're traveling and that's also okay, as long as everyone understands it's situational, and that once we're at the house that we're going to be at, once we're at the hotel, it's back to normal. You can set those boundaries and let them know that, "Things are going to be different while we're traveling, but then, here's how it's got to go." I know that it's hard for people and you don't want to be the parent causing a scene at the airport. That's so hard on you as the parent.

Kerry Nolan: Let's take a call. Gina in New Jersey, welcome to All Of It.

Gina: Hi. I'm really enjoying listening to your show. I know you're the substitute host. I have a daughter, who we've traveled all over the world with. Now, she's actually 20. When she was two, and she was always a very easygoing child, never really a problem but we were on a long flight to Greece to visit family. We had, at the time that we didn't have iPads, it was some other kind of little iPad-like thing. She was very excited because that was something that she was going to get to use on the airplane, but she had a tantrum, and it was the tantrum of the century.

She had never before had this. She was just exhausted, screaming, basically screaming her lungs out for a good solid 10, 15 minutes. I knew that everyone around us was in pain, just listening to her. There was really nothing we could do. She was just at that point where she had lost it completely. Now when I go on airplanes and if there's a child around me, and they're crying, I can remember back to my own experience and have empathy for the parents.

One thing that the interviewer said that immediately made a flag for me, was when you said, "Well, if my child wants to run up and down the aisle in the airplane." Right away, I'm like, "Ah-ah, that is not acceptable." I don't want to be looking down on younger parents, but for me, I have noticed that now parents of younger children are allowing their kids sometimes to run rampant around the restaurant, to run up and down the aisle and I feel like that is an affront on everyone.

Kerry Nolan: I agree. Well, thank heaven your daughter's tantrum is in the rearview mirror, and you can enjoy traveling again. Thanks for your call, Gina. We're talking with Amil Niazi, who is a writer for the parenting column, The Hard Part at The Cut, and we're talking about traveling with your kids. Pedro in Manhattan, welcome to All Of It.

Pedro: Hi. Can you hear me?

Kerry Nolan: We can hear you.

Pedro: Wonderful. Two quick things. We have a six-year-old and we travel extensively with her. She took your listeners are not going to believe this, but 59 flights, that's 5-9, before she turned two.

Kerry Nolan: Wow.

Pedro: We traveled extensively, even as an infant. Well, those were free flights. Anyway, so a couple of things. One, about half of those, I traveled by myself with her. I have to say there's absolutely a double standard when it is just a dad versus just a mom traveling. In other words, whenever I would get on the plane, everybody would reach out to help, which is not what you usually see when it's just a mom, so that's one.

Then just a tip for your listeners. If you're traveling with an infant and they get fuzzy, start crying, or whatnot, this always work for me 9 out of 10 times, you find another infant on the flight, and you just take your baby up to that baby without bothering the passengers. As soon as they look at each other, it's like magic. They just stop. A tip for the listeners out there. That's what I have on a Monday morning.

Kerry Nolan: Thank you so much for your call, Pedro. Amil, what are some things that you do when you're flying with the kids? What's the best seating arrangement for you when you travel with your kids on a plane?

Amil Niazi: Definitely not in the middle. I think that that's the first place to put a mom and a baby or a dad and a baby. Usually, if I'm traveling by myself, I do try and sit in the aisle so that if things get hairy I can take the baby and do a little walk, but also so that I can get to the bathroom very quickly if I need to breastfeed, it's a bit more comfortable that way. I think the same with a toddler, just having the aisle seat gives you a bit more opportunity to not bother other people and to make sure that if you need to get up and do something, you have that space, and you're not waking someone up, or you're not disturbing anyone. That's always my preference.

I do just want to respond to that comment about letting kids run rampant on an airplane or in a restaurant. I think that word empathy, it doesn't have limits. Sometimes, a child who has been traveling for a long time, or who is new to traveling, has a lot of bundled-up energy, and they need to get it out and to me, a child safely running down an aisle or safely running around the restaurant, it's not a big deal. I think our capacity for understanding and allowing kids to just be kids, they're just kids, needs to be expanded. If we're going to be empathetic, then let's not put limits on that empathy.

Kerry Nolan: Let's take one more call. Liz in the Bronx, you're on with All Of It.

Liz: Hi, good afternoon. I'm just piggybacking on what the last caller said. For me, it was all about planning ahead in terms of who's going to be responsible for who on a long flight. For example, so at the time, I had two kids. My ex and I would say, "Okay, I'll take child A, you take child B," and that's who we are responsible for the entire flight, or you take turns being responsible for both kids, that way, by the end of the flight, one parent is not thoroughly exhausted, the other parent is wide awake, and not understanding why the parent who was responsible the entire flight is already stressed out and annoyed.

I think that's just the conversation you have before you fly, "Okay, it's a 10-hour flight, who's going to be responsible for the first two hours? Who's going to be responsible for a blowout? Who's going to feed the kids?" That way, both parents have equal share of the responsibility. So many times I'm on a flight and I see the mom is in the row with the kids and the dad is sitting a row ahead, and he's watching his movies, and the mommy is taking care of everything by herself, which stresses me out as a fellow passenger. That would be my advice is just plan ahead with communicating with each other, that would make a more pleasant experience for everybody.

Kerry Nolan: Thank you so much, Liz. Amil, I know we've got about a minute left if that. How do you squeeze in me time on a trip like that?

Amil Niazi: That's a great point. My husband and I do the same thing, which is we give each other breaks. One person is looking after both kids for a while, so the other person can nap or read their book or watch a movie, and then we trade off. We do the same thing on a trip. I'll watch the kids while he goes for a swim so he can actually have a proper relaxing swim because playing with kids in the water is very fun, but you're on the whole time. That's very stressful. We allow each other those moments on and off. I think it allows you to actually de-stress and turn off as a human for a little while.

Then we make time for us as a family to be together and the kids understand that, "Okay, mom's having some alone time, but we're going to get back together for a walk or a hike or a swim." If you can just allow each other some breaks, I think that as a team, you will just actually be able to have a vacation. That's what we do, my partner and I, we just allow each other to turn off and that's something as your caller said, you don't always get to do.

Kerry Nolan: Right. That's great advice. Amil Niazi, writer for the parenting column, The Hard Part at The Cut. Thank you so much for spending some time with us today. This was fun.

Amil Niazi: Thank you so much for having me and good luck to all the parents out there traveling this summer.

 

Copyright © 2023 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.