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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. Today, we're sharing some conversations that Kousha Navidar hosted here on the show while I was out for a while. One of those conversations centered around third spaces. Listeners were invited to call in and share their gathering spaces, so you will hear some of those calls. Since this is an All Of It encore presentation, we won't be able to take your calls today. Let's get into it. Here's Kousha.

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Kousha Navidar: Our lives are lived in three places. There's home, there's work, and a third place. Ideally, it's not a place that bridges the first two. It's a separate place. Maybe it's a library, a bookstore, a park, cafe, barbershop, dog park. Basically, a place where you can be in community outside your home and work. A place where you can go and be a regular. A place where everyone may not know your name, but you can connect with people. They're becoming increasingly underutilized.

Over two decades ago, Robert Putnam's groundbreaking book, Bowling Alone, pointed out that Americans were socializing less in person and becoming disengaged from community involvement. Many spaces that people used as third places closed during the COVID-19 pandemic, but we need third places. Last year, the US surgeon general released a report titled, Our Epidemic of Loneliness and Isolation.

It found that even before the pandemic, about half of US adults reported experiencing measurable levels of loneliness. Allie Volpe is a senior reporter at Vox. She recently wrote an article titled, If You Want to Belong, Find a Third Place. In it, she writes, "You don't need to take on the Herculean task of making new friends to be less lonely. You may just need a third place." Allie, welcome to WNYC.

Allie Volpe: Thanks so much for having me.

Kousha Navidar: Absolutely. Third places aren't a new concept. They've been written about and studied for some time. I'm thinking of the book we just mentioned, Bowling Alone, by Robert Putnam. What made you want to write about this now?

Allie Volpe: Yes, so during the pandemic, I had written a piece about how people were rethinking third places outdoors, obviously, because we could not collectively gather indoors. There was a real hunger for community that I know many people have felt, myself included, during that time when we had to social distance to be safe and not spread the virus. A lot of people were turning their eyes outdoors.

Now that we've moved past that acute phase of the pandemic, things have settled into a relative state of normalcy. I wanted to revisit the concept. What are people doing about third places now? Are we still thinking about them in the same ways? Do we think we need more of them? A lot of the experts I talked to, it turns out people are wistful for this idea. They felt like it's something they may have had in the past that they don't have anymore and they wished they had more of it.

Kousha Navidar: You say that since the pandemic, it's gotten into a state of normalcy or at least returning back to it. I'm wondering, besides some of the more obvious things about there are fewer places open, they're not open as late as they used to be, have you seen a lasting impact on COVID on third places outside of those two ideas?

Allie Volpe: Right, so one of the researchers I talked to, she did a study that was released prior to the pandemic and found even before that third places were closing. She's in the process of doing some follow-up research to see what the impact of the pandemic has been. She doesn't have any super clear data yet, but she suspects that disinvestment in low-income communities and the places that have closed and have not been reopened could have a major impact on the amount of third places that currently exist.

Kousha Navidar: Speaking of COVID, there's this Reddit thread that asks the question, "What's your third place?" I saw this response. It said, "I work remotely from home, interested in finding a second space." Can you talk about that a little bit, Allie?

Allie Volpe: Yes, so the idea of the third place is the first place is your home, the second place is your work, the third place is this place where you hang out with other people that isn't work or home. I'm in the same boat. My first and second place is my home. I think it makes it that much more important to find a place where you can go. You can feel welcomed. You can interact with people who are different from you. That's really, really crucial.

It can be hard to find if you feel like you maybe live in an area where you have to drive somewhere to just get out of your neighborhood. The way that our communities are laid out makes it difficult to find a third place. Not everyone is lucky to live in a city that you walk outside and you might have a coffee shop or a library down the street. It is difficult to try to find these places. Yes, in this era of remote work, it makes it all the more important to get out of the house. [chuckles]

Kousha Navidar: How do you deal with it? Do you have a cafe shop that you go to all the time? Do you have something on rotation? What's your approach?

Allie Volpe: I have a rotation of coffee shops actually. I will do one before going to the gym, another one for work, another one in another neighborhood if I'm meeting up with friends. I love it. Like just this morning, I went to my pre-gym coffee shop. The barista, she's probably my mother's age. I'm in my 30s, so she's quite a bit older than me, but we really connect over things like beyond coffee. She gave me recommendations for a restaurant today. We talk about the weather, which I know people grown at, but it's always a really pleasant conversation. I love talking with her and it does make me feel like I'm a part of something.

Kousha Navidar: Allie, I already see the phone calls coming in actually, which is exciting. There are some texts that we got. There's one text that says, "My experience lately is a many of the third places have stopped being social as people are doing their 'work from home' there and actually don't want conversation, et cetera, around them. They have nowhere to go, but also change the nature of those places." I'm wondering if you have any insight on that if you've seen the behavior of folks changing within those third places and making it harder even to reclaim what those places are used to be for at least. What do you think?

Allie Volpe: Absolutely. Guilty as charged. I'm the person there with the laptop sometimes so deep in it. I think we need to change our expectations of how we approach other people in these spaces. I think if we are willing to strike up a conversation maybe with someone else who's also at their laptop or even the barista, it gives people the permission like, "Okay, it's all right to talk here." The coffee shops I love to go to, yes, people are often working.

My friend, she'll see somebody from across the cafe that she knows. She will literally scream to them like, "Hey, what's up?" and have a conversation. I think it just encourages that open communication, as corny as it sounds like, be the change you want to see. If you want to have a more social third place, I think we have to just let people know it's okay. Because, with good reason, people are like, "I don't want to bother that person. I don't want to be weird. I don't want to offend them."

I totally get that. I've been the annoying person that has probably gotten too close to somebody or ask them a question and they didn't want to be bothered. There's studies that actually show that those people like us more than we think. I think if we just drown out the negative thoughts in our head that tell us, "Oh, we're being weird. This isn't the space for that." We're humans. We are designed to connect. I think we just need to be open to it.

Kousha Navidar: You always wait for somebody to pop the bubble. Somebody's got to do it. Like you said, be the change. We have another. We have a tweet that I want to read out here. It says, "I'm an avid cyclist, a roadie, and a member of two local clubs. The NYCC and Rapha. We meet on weekday mornings in Central Park for laps and on weekends, typically head north to Nyack, Katonah, and Bear Mountain." That's Geoff Pomerantz on X, so thanks so much for that. Allie, you mentioned that you had a pre-gym cafe, right? I'm wondering for you, let's look at the gym for a second. Do you consider the gym to be a third place?

Allie Volpe: Oh definitely. That pandemic third-place story I was alluding to earlier, I did speak to someone who, prior to the pandemic, really felt so strongly about their gym being their third place and with masks or reduced capacity, how difficult it was to talk to people. Because, yes, when we're in the gym, if you're in a class with someone especially, you want to strike up a conversation. You might see those people every day or every week.

It's only natural that you want to connect with those people. A gym is a perfect place because it's bringing people together who might have different athletic abilities, certainly different lifestyles and jobs, points of view. It brings them all in this place collectively where you can hang out and even make friends. My best friend has made some incredible friendships from her gym. Again, not to say that you need to make friends, but it can lead to that road if you wanted to.

Kousha Navidar: Some gyms are specifically for creating community too like group classes or training together. Let's get into some calls. We've got Joey from the Lower East Side. Hey, welcome to the show.

Joey: Hi. Thanks. Yes, first-time caller. I wanted to bring up movie theaters as my third place. I'm a film editor. You wouldn't necessarily think of it as a third place potentially because of the isolation of watching a movie. Pre-screening and post-screening, you just gone through the experience together. There is a lot of opportunity to share, strike up conversation with a stranger, or share your thoughts.

Kousha Navidar: Yes, absolutely, Joey. That's such an interesting perspective. Do you go to the same movie theater and do you see the same regulars there that you ended up making a connection with?

Joey: Sure, sometimes. The two I could shout out is the Metrograph down here. Then also, there's Regal Essex, which harkens back to the mall era because they have this little seating area and it's a huge space, especially for being in the city. I occasionally see the same people. Even so, there's always an opportunity to have a brief conversation on the way to the bathroom or on the way out.

Kousha Navidar: Totally. Joey, just before I let you go, I think this is interesting. Just purely from your anecdotal evidence, do you find that some moviegoers are friendlier based on the genre of movie? Is there a genre where you go, "Oh, I'll probably strike up a conversation more easily here," or is it just you never know what you're going to get?

Joey: That's a funny question. I guess maybe the more intense or potentially controversial the film is, the more opportunities I feel like I've had striking up a conversation. I remember during Zone of Interest, there was one instance where everybody got out like, "What was that? What happened?" It brought into some nice conversation about what everyone thought.

Kousha Navidar: Well, Joey, thank you so much for that call. That's a wonderful idea there. A third place is with movie theaters. Let's go to Amy in Brooklyn. Hey, Amy, welcome to the show.

Amy: Hey, how are you? Thanks for taking my call.

Kousha Navidar: Yes, welcome.

Amy: I actually own a gym in Brooklyn and we are very much a third place for many, many people. I just want to second that as the place. I guess it depends on your gym. Our gym is called BYKlyn Studios. We're super community-based and many people have made friends. It is that sense of community. You see the same people every day. People know when you come back from vacation. I think for many, it has replaced a work community, especially for our remote workers.

Kousha Navidar: Amy, thank you so much for that call. Shout out to BYKlyn Studios in Brooklyn there. Thanks so much for offering from the owner's perspective of a gym.

Alison Stewart: We've been listening to a conversation with Vox senior reporter Allie Volpe, hosted by Kousha Navidar. We'll hear more about third spaces in a minute. This is All Of It.

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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart. Today, we're sharing some conversation hosted by Kousha Navidar as a way of saying thanks for stepping up to the plate while I was out for a while, so let's get back into it. Before the break, we were hearing Kousha's conversation with Vox senior reporter Allie Volpe about third spaces. They took some calls, but because this is an encore presentation, we won't be able to take your calls today. Let's get back into it. Here's Kousha.

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Kousha Navidar: A text came in, Allie. I want to get your reaction to it. It says, "I am a public librarian, and working in a third space is an incredible privilege. I can tell when someone just needs to chat for a minute and you can see their whole posture change when they leave. Being able to provide someone a moment of kind conversation is one of the best parts of my jobs. No cuts to libraries," and that's from Emma Erickson. What do you think about that text? It seems like libraries can be a really good third place.

Allie Volpe: Yes, I love that so much. It reminds me of a study I saw that people will confide in people who work at third places like bartenders or hairdressers. It sounds like also library workers. Just to have that listening ear, it might feel so vulnerable. To just be able to confide in someone is so, so powerful. To be able to do that at a library, places that have been shutting down as well just furthers the point that we need to support these places. The best way to show that we want these places is to keep going to them.

Kousha Navidar: For a lot of people, I'm thinking of the hundreds of people in Chicago who tragically died during the 1995 heat wave, these third places can be even just a matter of life and death. It makes me wonder, do you think that there are any groups of people for whom third places are especially important like teens or the elderly? What do you think?

Allie Volpe: Absolutely, yes, like these places. Again, libraries are often cooling centers for populations in the summer that do not have air conditioning. These could be real life-saving amenities. I talked to a researcher who looked at young people with histories of housing instability and homelessness. She said they often turn to these third places for resources like a safe place to be outside of school, a place to get snacks when you might not have any at home. These areas can really provide resources for people.

Kousha Navidar: Let's go to some callers. Our phone lines are lit up. Let's go to Julia in Ridgewood, Queens. Hey, Julia, welcome to the show.

Julia: Hi. Thanks for having me. Last year, I worked for a TikTok food page. I produced a series about food places like restaurants, eateries, and the such like that were also third places. I started by just picking ones I'd observe, but the series changed as time went on and as it got views, and then I started crowdsourcing them. I got to say, for all of this finding of third places across the city, I don't know if I have a third place of my own. I think I spread myself across my neighborhood across several places.

Kousha Navidar: Julia, thank you so much for that call. Let's go to David in Suffern, New York. Hey, David, welcome to the show.

David: Hello. Good afternoon. Thank you for taking my call. I want to say that when I moved to Suffern, the first thing I did, being a total stranger here, is found out where my nearest Chabad house, my synagogue was. That became my third place, possibly even my second or first place. Every single day, after prayers, we chat, my friends. That's where I made all my friends.

Every Saturday after prayers, there's a lunch. That's when we schmooze. That's where I made my friends and my friendships. When I go through a difficult time or a happy time, that's where I could share that and get the support. I really think that encourage people to go to their place of worship and make friends there and build community there because that was my experience and I have no regrets.

Kousha Navidar: Wonderful, David. Thank you so much for that. We've got a text in here that I'd like to read as well. It says, "Hi, this is Heather from Greenpoint. My third place is the dog run. For people who don't drink, it's a great place to meet people of all different economic and ethnic backgrounds but who share a love for dogs." I got to point out, Allie, there's a lot of dog love that's happening right now in our text. It seems like a lot of people are finding their third place either in their dog or through their dog. Do you have a dog? Do you have any experience with third-placing it through your creature?

Allie Volpe: I'm obsessed. I do not have a dog, but I love dogs. It makes total sense. Especially if we do feel weird approaching somebody already knowing we have that thing in common of like, "Okay, we're both here for our pets," makes it so much easier to break the ice with somebody. I've been noticing in Philadelphia where I live, it feels like there are more dog bars opening up. I think, again, that's awesome. You bring your dog. You have a beer or don't if you don't want to, but it's a great icebreaker that you already know. We could have so many things that are different about our lives, but we have this one thing in common. That is a subject I could talk about.

Kousha Navidar: Another thing that a producer just pointed out to me here, I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but we're seeing a gender disparity too with the calls that we're getting right now. A lot of male callers, which is interesting, or folks who identify as male. I'm not sure if there's anything to go into with that, but just an observation that I'm seeing here from all of the calls.

We also just got a new text from a rabbi, to harken back to that last caller. "As a rabbi of a community, I see every day how important our synagogue is as a third space. It's where people can connect during moments of change that are painful or inspiring. It also gives people a weekly place to just come and be seen and respected and loved for who they are." Thank you so much for that text. We've also got another caller. Here's Paul in Washington Heights. Hey, Paul, welcome to the show.

Paul 1: Thank you. I wanted to do a shout-out for pickleball. My wife and I have been playing recently and the hangout time between games and getting to know people cross-section of New Yorkers. Then when we go on trips, we find pickleball courts and the community's there again, so it's great.

Kousha Navidar: Paul, thank you so much for that. Have you made any close friends through pickleball?

Paul 1: Yes, we go with friends, so it's not so much about close friends. It's about community with people we don't know, so that's what's kind of fun.

Kousha Navidar: Oh wonderful. I want to go to another Paul, also in Washington Heights, it looks like. Hey, Paul from Washington Heights, welcome to the show.

Paul 2: Oh, thank you for taking my call. My third place is English country dancing and contra dancing in Manhattan. Actually, our last contra dance, because we break for the summer, is tomorrow. We dance at Church of the Village at West 13th off Seventh Avenue. Beginners are welcome. You don't need a partner. We actually change partners after each dance and it's all done to live music.

Kousha Navidar: Wonderful. Paul, thank you so much for that. I got to say, my third space, if we're just talking about it, is dance as well. I take West Coast swing dances every Tuesday. Emmanuel Pierre dance studio up in Midtown, so shout-out to that. Paul, thank you so much. I'm looking at the clock. I think we have time for a couple of more calls. Let's go to Michael in the East Village. Hey, Michael, welcome to the show.

Michael: Hi. Thank you so much.

Kousha Navidar: What's your experience with third spaces?

Michael: 40 years ago, I saw an ad in the back of The Village Voice for auditions for a chorus. I joined and I've been with it for 40 years. It's wonderful circle of friends.

Kousha Navidar: Wonderful. Thank you, Michael, for that. I think we got time for just one more caller. I see Heidi in Huntington. Hey, Heidi, welcome to the show.

Heidi: Hey, thanks for taking my call. I live in Huntington. When COVID happened, it was obviously very isolating, especially in the suburbs. I took up horseback riding. In this way, I could be with people but not be close to them. I could still be outside and I could be with animals. Now, I'm at a wonderful barn in the state park in Long Island in Huntington. The people in the barn were very connected. We help each other with our horses. We keep our eye out for each other. It's really a wonderful community. We share our love of horses. It's just amazing.

Kousha Navidar: That's wonderful. Thank you, Heidi, so much. We got dogs and we've got horses. Animals are often our best friends or our conduit to best friends, I would say. We got to wrap up here. Allie, one thing that you wrote in your article that I wanted to be sure that we touched on was that you refer to the "Herculean task" of finding new friends. I'm wondering, what makes it difficult? More specifically, any advice for folks as they're going into these third spaces or looking for them?

Allie Volpe: When you think about in childhood, it seemed easier to make friends because you were in contexts with other people. We were in school. We were in clubs. We were in sports. We had neighborhoods that maybe had other kids. It was just you were surrounded by other people. I think that's what makes folks feel like it's harder to find friends these days.

Because outside of our workplaces, we're not really around different people all that often, which is why third places are great to put you in a context with people that might be different from you, that might be like you, people that you might want to be friends with. Obviously, there's no pressure that you even need to be their friend. The fact that you can keep showing up to these places and make it regular, the likelihood that you do form a connection with them is all the more likely.

Kousha Navidar: I want to shout out some of the third spaces that we're getting because there are so many texts that we unfortunately don't have time to get to. Just to recap them, we're hearing Central Park, we're hearing the YMCA, we're hearing church, community gardens. The list really goes on. Listeners, if you want to DM us on Instagram or on X, we're @AllOfItWNYC with your favorite third spaces. We would love to hear it.

Alison Stewart: That was Kousha Navidar's conversation with VOX senior reporter Allie Volpe. That is All Of It for this hour. We'll have more of Kousha's conversations after the news, including how underwater sounds help shape the marine ecosystem, the science of flavor, and the art of speechwriting. That's coming up after the news. Stick around.