In an unprecedented move this week, the US Justice Department brought charges against 5 Chinese military officers for allegedly hacking American companies in an act of economic espionage. Bob speaks with Jeremy Goldkorn, who analyzes the Chinese media, about how the story is playing out in China.
Transcript
BOB GARFIELD: In an unprecedented move this week, the US Justice Department brought charges against five Chinese military officers for allegedly hacking American companies in an act of economic espionage. Here’s FBI Assistant Attorney General for National Security John Carlin, during the Justice Department press conference on Monday.
[CLIP]:
JOHN CARLIN: For the first time, we are exposing the faces and names behind the keyboards in Shanghai used to steal from American businesses.
BOB GARFIELD: Yes, names and faces, because the FBI also released wanted posters with the images of the alleged hackers, two of whom are shown in their Chinese military uniforms. This is all part, apparently, of the name and shame strategy, putting a face to cybercrime, since really, without an extradition agreement with China, the US government has no recourse here. If anything, the indictments appear to be more of a media campaign against the Chinese.
[CLIPS]:
MALE CORRESPONDENT: China’s military has attacked major US companies in a computer war that kills American jobs.
FEMALE CORRESPONDENT: It all comes down to hackers trying to find a shortcut for Chinese businesses to get ahead of American businesses.
MAN: They’re stealing our stuff. Put ‘em in prison and throw the key away.
[END CLIPS]
BOB GARFIELD: Unsurprisingly, the Chinese media have a different perspective on this hacking indictment. Jeremy Goldkorn monitors Chinese media and joins me now from Beijing. Jeremy, welcome back to the show.
JEREMY GOLDKORN: Thank you very much. Always a pleasure to be here, Bob
BOB GARFIELD: The Chinese media are playing this move by the Justice Department as hypocritical and outrageous, in the light of, let's say, NSA spying and the PRISM program that was revealed by Edward Snowden.
JEREMY GOLDKORN: Yeah, that is a universal line. I mean, every editorial and just about every piece of criticism on social media that I’ve read somehow refers to Edward Snowden and the NSA. The Global Times, a rather nationalistic state-owned newspaper, had some particularly colorful language. In the English edition, they called the US “a mincing rascal” and various other words for hypocrisy.
[BOB LAUGHING]
The Chinese edition called the US “a preening high-grade hooligan.”[LAUGHS]
BOB GARFIELD: [LAUGHS] Now, does nobody at least acknowledge the difference between spy agencies spying on individuals on supposed national security grounds and economic espionage, which is at the heart of this case? I mean, there’s a difference between being a snoop and being a thief.
JEREMY GOLDKORN: Certainly, that distinction is, is made in the United States. I haven’t seen that distinction acknowledged by any of the media reporting in China.
BOB GARFIELD: Now, putting the shoe on the other foot, it seems to me that if China made all sorts of accusations about Americans in the military or the government committing some sort of economic crime, the American press would do its due diligence to see if there's anything to the accusations. Has any of the Chinese press taken up the question of whether there's merit to these charges?
JEREMY GOLDKORN: No, they haven’t, and they won’t because the media control authorities will not allow it. This is a case where the government doesn’t have to work too hard on getting everybody to stick to the party line, because the sense of outrage at the US is very widespread but, nonetheless, because it involves a case of some kind of sensitivity that involves the image of China abroad, the propaganda controls will be quite strict.
BOB GARFIELD: Is there any way to know if some percentage of the Chinese population is actually, instead of pointing its finger at the hypocritical US, just going, yeah, that kind of scans, that sounds like our People's Liberation Army?
JEREMY GOLDKORN: Yeah, I think there probably are many people who think that China is doing it. I don’t think that the outrage here is because they think it's a lie. I think the outrage is because they think the US is just as bad and explicitly criticizing individuals is the thing that is causing the outrage. I mean, a very common statement I saw, at least on social media, was, everybody’s doing it, it’s just that the US is a bigger thief, complaining when his own stuff is stolen.
BOB GARFIELD: The mug shots were an interesting twist here, presumably to put a face on the otherwise fairly abstract business of, of cybercrime. And it’s hard to know exactly what the US intended, but at least one commentator, Evan Osnos, of The New Yorker, [LAUGHS] suggested that it could backfire by turning the accused into – folk heroes, anti-heroes, just plain heroes. Is there any evidence that these guys are benefiting from the attention?
JEREMY GOLDKORN: Well, there certainly has been quite a bit of chatter in the media and on social media, along the lines of these people are heroes, and maybe drawing such attention to the individual identities is the reason that people are thinking that. This is seen as a, a provocation by America and as a very purposeful shaming of Chinese people who work for the People’s Liberation Army.
BOB GARFIELD: And finally, that, my understanding that shame is a particularly resonant emotion in Chinese culture, I imagine someone in the State Department saying to the people at the Justice Department, well, you know, saving face is very, very important to the Chinese. Perhaps if you could shame them, it would have an effect even more than any kind of criminal indictment. If that is what is happening do you think it's had any effect whatsoever?
JEREMY GOLDKORN: I don't think the shame is being felt on this side of the Pacific. I don't know what's going on inside the secret buildings controlled by the People’s Liberation Army. My gut instinct is that this isn’t going to have much of an effect. But you never know. Maybe I’m wrong.
BOB GARFIELD: Well, I do know this - that I’ve just asked you [LAUGHS] to speculate on my speculations. [LAUGHS]
[GOLDKORN LAUGHING]
Which is what I make a living ridiculing about cable news. Oh, I am such a mincing rascal! Jeremy, thank you so much.
JEREMY GOLDKORN: [LAUGHS] My pleasure.
BOB GARFIELD: Jeremy Goldkorn is founder and editor of the website Danwei, which monitors media in China. He spoke to us from Beijing.
BOB GARFIELD: In an unprecedented move this week, the US Justice Department brought charges against five Chinese military officers for allegedly hacking American companies in an act of economic espionage. Here’s FBI Assistant Attorney General for National Security John Carlin, during the Justice Department press conference on Monday.
[CLIP]:
JOHN CARLIN: For the first time, we are exposing the faces and names behind the keyboards in Shanghai used to steal from American businesses.
BOB GARFIELD: Yes, names and faces, because the FBI also released wanted posters with the images of the alleged hackers, two of whom are shown in their Chinese military uniforms. This is all part, apparently, of the name and shame strategy, putting a face to cybercrime, since really, without an extradition agreement with China, the US government has no recourse here. If anything, the indictments appear to be more of a media campaign against the Chinese.
[CLIPS]:
MALE CORRESPONDENT: China’s military has attacked major US companies in a computer war that kills American jobs.
FEMALE CORRESPONDENT: It all comes down to hackers trying to find a shortcut for Chinese businesses to get ahead of American businesses.
MAN: They’re stealing our stuff. Put ‘em in prison and throw the key away.
[END CLIPS]
BOB GARFIELD: Unsurprisingly, the Chinese media have a different perspective on this hacking indictment. Jeremy Goldkorn monitors Chinese media and joins me now from Beijing. Jeremy, welcome back to the show.
JEREMY GOLDKORN: Thank you very much. Always a pleasure to be here, Bob
BOB GARFIELD: The Chinese media are playing this move by the Justice Department as hypocritical and outrageous, in the light of, let's say, NSA spying and the PRISM program that was revealed by Edward Snowden.
JEREMY GOLDKORN: Yeah, that is a universal line. I mean, every editorial and just about every piece of criticism on social media that I’ve read somehow refers to Edward Snowden and the NSA. The Global Times, a rather nationalistic state-owned newspaper, had some particularly colorful language. In the English edition, they called the US “a mincing rascal” and various other words for hypocrisy.
[BOB LAUGHING]
The Chinese edition called the US “a preening high-grade hooligan.”[LAUGHS]
BOB GARFIELD: [LAUGHS] Now, does nobody at least acknowledge the difference between spy agencies spying on individuals on supposed national security grounds and economic espionage, which is at the heart of this case? I mean, there’s a difference between being a snoop and being a thief.
JEREMY GOLDKORN: Certainly, that distinction is, is made in the United States. I haven’t seen that distinction acknowledged by any of the media reporting in China.
BOB GARFIELD: Now, putting the shoe on the other foot, it seems to me that if China made all sorts of accusations about Americans in the military or the government committing some sort of economic crime, the American press would do its due diligence to see if there's anything to the accusations. Has any of the Chinese press taken up the question of whether there's merit to these charges?
JEREMY GOLDKORN: No, they haven’t, and they won’t because the media control authorities will not allow it. This is a case where the government doesn’t have to work too hard on getting everybody to stick to the party line, because the sense of outrage at the US is very widespread but, nonetheless, because it involves a case of some kind of sensitivity that involves the image of China abroad, the propaganda controls will be quite strict.
BOB GARFIELD: Is there any way to know if some percentage of the Chinese population is actually, instead of pointing its finger at the hypocritical US, just going, yeah, that kind of scans, that sounds like our People's Liberation Army?
JEREMY GOLDKORN: Yeah, I think there probably are many people who think that China is doing it. I don’t think that the outrage here is because they think it's a lie. I think the outrage is because they think the US is just as bad and explicitly criticizing individuals is the thing that is causing the outrage. I mean, a very common statement I saw, at least on social media, was, everybody’s doing it, it’s just that the US is a bigger thief, complaining when his own stuff is stolen.
BOB GARFIELD: The mug shots were an interesting twist here, presumably to put a face on the otherwise fairly abstract business of, of cybercrime. And it’s hard to know exactly what the US intended, but at least one commentator, Evan Osnos, of The New Yorker, [LAUGHS] suggested that it could backfire by turning the accused into – folk heroes, anti-heroes, just plain heroes. Is there any evidence that these guys are benefiting from the attention?
JEREMY GOLDKORN: Well, there certainly has been quite a bit of chatter in the media and on social media, along the lines of these people are heroes, and maybe drawing such attention to the individual identities is the reason that people are thinking that. This is seen as a, a provocation by America and as a very purposeful shaming of Chinese people who work for the People’s Liberation Army.
BOB GARFIELD: And finally, that, my understanding that shame is a particularly resonant emotion in Chinese culture, I imagine someone in the State Department saying to the people at the Justice Department, well, you know, saving face is very, very important to the Chinese. Perhaps if you could shame them, it would have an effect even more than any kind of criminal indictment. If that is what is happening do you think it's had any effect whatsoever?
JEREMY GOLDKORN: I don't think the shame is being felt on this side of the Pacific. I don't know what's going on inside the secret buildings controlled by the People’s Liberation Army. My gut instinct is that this isn’t going to have much of an effect. But you never know. Maybe I’m wrong.
BOB GARFIELD: Well, I do know this - that I’ve just asked you [LAUGHS] to speculate on my speculations. [LAUGHS]
[GOLDKORN LAUGHING]
Which is what I make a living ridiculing about cable news. Oh, I am such a mincing rascal! Jeremy, thank you so much.
JEREMY GOLDKORN: [LAUGHS] My pleasure.
BOB GARFIELD: Jeremy Goldkorn is founder and editor of the website Danwei, which monitors media in China. He spoke to us from Beijing.