From the Archives: Jimmy Carter Reflects on Religion in His Life

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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. On our next three shows, today, tomorrow, and Friday, we're going to play some short excerpts of conversations I've had with former President Jimmy Carter. As most of you have heard, Carter has announced that he has entered hospice care, refusing any more medical treatment. He's 98 years old. No president of the United States has ever lived longer. President Carter came on the show four times between 2010 and 2015. I always found him incredibly open and down to earth.

He took calls from listeners. He thought broadly and deeply about his work and about his career, and about his life, and about the world. Honestly, he's been one of my favorite guests. We will play these excerpts at this time, right around 11 o'clock today, tomorrow, and Friday. For today, I picked out a few stretches from his appearance in 2012 when a version of the Bible was released called the NIV Lessons from Life Bible annotated with personal reflections from Jimmy Carter, who told me he had been teaching Sunday school for 65 years.

President Jimmy Carter: I teach a different lesson every Sunday. This particular month we happen to be studying some of the parables of Jesus, but then next month, we go to the Old Testament.

Brian Lehrer: I was given some excerpts from the NIV Lessons from Life Bible marked as passages important to you. I thought we might go through a few of these. Mark 2:15-17 on despising others, about Jesus sitting with Levi, an outcast, and the role of tax collectors. What's important to you about this?

President Jimmy Carter: Well, I think it indicates that Jesus reached out to people who were unsavory, or despised, or second-rate in the community, lepers in that they for instance were treated like we first treated people with AIDS. They were looked upon as condemned by God. Of course, tax collectors were at the bottom of their social list as far as the Jewish hierarchy was concerned, because they were looked upon as betraying their own people and collecting taxes from the Romans-- for the Romans.

Brian Lehrer: For the Romans who are oppressing them.

President Jimmy Carter: That's right, and keeping part of it themselves, most of them. They were looked upon as both dishonest and also as traitors to their own people but the important thing is that Jesus reached out to those habitually who were despised, or in need, or inarticulate, or suffering, or poor.

Brian Lehrer: How about the persistent outcast status of gays and lesbians among some of the most observant Christians? Why do you think people are so dug in on that in the name of Jesus who was supposed to be tolerant?

President Jimmy Carter: Well Jesus wrote and spoke about a lot of different sins that we have, like selfishness and pride and so forth. He never mentioned homosexuality. Of course, we know that even in days before Christ, in Roman history and so forth, there was a lot of gay practices. I think Jesus didn't condemn gay people, and our church accepts gay members. We don't question people when they come to our church. I think there's a natural inclination on the part of human beings to put ourselves in a position superior to some kind of other people. I grew up in the deep South when white people considered themselves to be superior to African Americans. It was condoned and approved by the Supreme Court and by the Congress and other people.

Now, of course, that's over, at least legally. We see Americans now turning to despise what they call illegal aliens or people who come here from Mexico or other Southern countries. I think in almost any society, there's a tendency to exalt ourselves and our particular character of life above and beyond some other people. But that's what some people, even if they're Christians, are concerning those who happen to be gay.

Brian Lehrer: Another passage from Mark that I have here as one of interest to you is 9:33-35 on selfishness. We want to be the greatest we want to focus on ourselves. What is it about that passage for you?

President Jimmy Carter: Well, although they are not mentioned in the Bible, some people include seven sins. I think the number one origin of most sinfulness is the sin of pride, self-exaltation, of placing ourselves above others. This leads to many other sins like selfishness. We want to keep what we have for ourselves and not share it with others because we don't think they're equal to us in societal's point of view or in the eyes of God. Where Paul wrote to the Galatians that, “All people are equal in the eyes of God, men and women and slaves and masters, and Jews, and Greeks, and so forth.”

I think that's what Christianity teaches us is that we should not be selfish in withholding the benefits in life that we have. Those benefits include not only money but also our time, our effort, our intelligence. God gives every person, regardless of their IQ, or their level of education, or their wealth, adequate ability to exercise the teachings of Christ, to be loving, and forgiving, and unselfish, and humble, and sharing.

I think that's a very good lesson that Mark does. Mark is one of the most interesting books in the Bible because it's almost like a newspaper account of what happened in Jesus' life. As you probably know, both Matthew and Luke copy what Mark wrote first. John, the third gospel, is completely separate.

Brian Lehrer: We're doing a series on our program called The End of War, based on the book of that title by science writer John Horgan. He argues that just as humanity turned slavery and human sacrifice from acceptable institutions to unacceptable ones, that war could be made culturally unacceptable around the world with the right effort over time. We're asking many of our guests, do you think human beings can ever abolish war? Do you?

President Jimmy Carter: Yes, I think that's certainly true, certainly a future prayer to expand. I think a lot of people felt that that might be the case in 1945 when we organized the United Nations, that that would be the end of war but we know that it isn't. I think that this is something that we should do. I wrote a book a number of years ago called Talking Peace, where I described the causes of conflict and how we can resolve issues peacefully, even the most intense disagreements and the most intense personal animosity between two people or two nations can be resolved through the application of Christian principles. With the help of a trusted mediator, either a counselor in a church or a mediator, like I've played a small role between Egypt and Israel but I think that's certainly a possibility.

Nowadays, unfortunately, my wife and I have been to more than 130 countries. Now when we travel around doing work for the Carter Center, it's generally accepted that the most intense warmonger for the last 35 or 40 years has been the United States of America. We are the country that's in the forefront of almost every war that's started.

When you go into Brazil, when you go into China, when you go into Egypt and so forth, you find countries that haven't been to war in the last 30 years or more. Rosa and I were discussing at lunch today. She was reading an article about it that some people live in a life never without peace. As a matter of fact, we have grandchildren who have never lived in a country that was not at war.

Brian Lehrer: Warmonger is a tough word to describe your country.

President Jimmy Carter: Well, I was quoting other people but our country is in the forefront of those nations that are eager to go to war to resolve differences. We've proven that, as you know in a number of cases for a long time. We went into Korea, when we went into Vietnam, when we went into Iraq both times, I think all those wars were unnecessary.

Brian Lehrer: That was former President Jimmy Carter here in 2012. One of our four conversations that we had on this show between 2010 and 2015 with that shocking ending, wasn't it, for a former president saying it's generally accepted that the most intense warmonger for the last 35 or 40 years has been the United States of America? Well, he said it. He said it here. We'll play excerpts from my other conversations with President Carter on the show at the same time, right around 11 o'clock tomorrow and Friday. Brian Lehrer on WNYC, much more to come.

 

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