( Julio Cortez, File / AP Photo )
The Republican governors of Arizona and Texas have, as a political ploy, begun to bus migrants arriving at their borders to New York and other East Coast cities. Local nonprofits and volunteer groups are struggling to cope with the number of people seeking assistance. Murad Awawdeh, executive director at the New York Immigration Coalition, and Maryann Tharappel, special projects director of Immigrant and Refugee Services at Catholic Charities of the Archdiocese of New York, discuss this news and how their organizations are responding to the needs of new arrivals.
[music]
Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Well, it's getting personal now between Mayor Eric Adams and Texas Governor Greg Abbott, and what's personal between political giants has real life implications for struggling families. Abbott has begun, as you heard in the news, explicitly sending people seeking asylum in this country who crossed the US-Mexico border in Texas to New York City, Mayor Adams says some of them against their will, to make a point to New York. "You want to be a sanctuary city? You take them."
A second bus arrived at Port Authority with asylum seekers yesterday in this explicit campaign. According to groups that help settle immigrant arrivals in the city, this has actually been going on for weeks, flooding the shelter and intake systems. Adams estimates it's 4000 asylum seekers up from the border since May, but it's only in the last few days that Governor Abbott has said openly that he's doing this. Here's Mayor Adams yesterday. This is the clip that Kerry just used in the news, but I want you to listen to it again. The mayor, after personally greeting the latest arrivals at the bus terminal, and listen to what he's accusing Texas of.
Mayor Eric Adams: Some of the families are on the bus that wanted to go to other locations and they were not allowed to do so. They were forced on the bus with the understanding that they were going to other location that they wanted to go to.
Brian Lehrer: Mayor Adams. What's the best response, here, from city officials? What's the federal government's responsibility? The mayor is asking for federal help. Does Abbott have a right to disperse asylum seekers to different parts of the country if they were arriving in Texas in very large numbers? Is Abbott treating families as political pawns, or forcing families who are not prisoners to go places they don't want to go, as the mayor accuses him of? With me now, Murad Awawdeh. He's the Executive Director of the New York Immigration Coalition, the advocacy and immigrant services organization, and Maryann Tharappel, Director of Special Projects for Catholic Charities here in New York. Catholic Charities helps to settle and provide legal services for many asylum seekers. Murad and Maryann, thanks for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.
Murad Awawdeh: Thanks for having me, Brian.
Maryann Tharappel: Thank you for having us, Brian.
Brian Lehrer: First of all, Maryann, what's your understanding of what's been happening this summer in terms of asylum seekers from Texas and Arizona coming here? Did something change last week with Governor Abbott's explicit acknowledgment that he is sending some people here?
Maryann Tharappel: Thank you so much, Brian. In the end of April and early May, Catholic Charities Community Services began receiving individuals who had reported that they were being bussed from the southern border to New York and being dropped off at Port Authority and other locations here in New York. We began to receive them at our central office at 1011 First Avenue in New York, New York. That office is not a service center. It is our executive management office. It houses our human resources, as well as our fiscal and finance offices and our executive management team. That place is not prepared to receive asylum seekers or provide shelter and housing services directly.
However, we were able to marshal our efforts to respond to this increasing demand. In the last several weeks, that demand has moved from being a trickle of people to being 50 to 100 plus people showing up at that office on a day-to-day basis seeking services. They primarily have been coming to our office because they were told by officials at the southern border or by people who put them on the buses, that if they go to Catholic Charities, they'll be able to receive a place to sleep, a shower, food and referrals for school enrollments, health and mental health services, as well as potential job referrals.
Our first line of defense in meeting this demand was to really marshal our efforts to meet the most basic survival needs of this community. In doing so, we also obviously identified legal demands of this community, which was further exacerbated by an issue that really began to happen the week of July 11th. All of a sudden, Catholic Charities offices, both at 1011 First Avenue as well as at our main immigration and refugee services center in downtown Manhattan at 80 Maiden Lane, but also at some of our satellite offices, in particular the Kennedy Center in the Bronx.
We began receiving mail for these immigrants directly to our offices. The mail indicated that the address of this individual immigrant was in fact our address, meaning that the southern border officials who were issuing these notices to appear and hearing notices were putting in the respondent or immigrant's mailing address, the Catholic Charities Community Services's address.
Brian Lehrer: Maryann, to be clear, this is before you took any of those people on officially as clients?
Maryann Tharappel: That's correct, Brian. None of these individuals are people we've previously served. We've never had encounters with them. We've never given them legal consultations. These people were unknown to us. It makes sense because the hearing notices and notices to appear that we received were for the last month and a half. The date of entry was the end of June or early July, and so these individuals have only very recently been released into the United States. Many of them had not even come to New York yet, in fact, to be able to receive our services, yet their mailing addresses were listed as our address.
Brian Lehrer: Murad Awawdeh from the New York Immigration Coalition, along the same lines I saw that you commented to the news organization, The City, about some of the asylum seekers listing your group, in addition to Catholic Charities, which you also named, as representatives of people seeking asylum. You're skeptical that the migrants are actually naming you. What do you think is really going on here?
Murad Awawdeh: I think the officials at the southern border have been at random assigning organizations in New York as areas for people to come to. We've also received notices to appear for people who we do not know. That is also a little bit distressing because that's where folk's mail is going to go to tell them where their hearing is going to happen, when it's going to happen. It's been a bit troubling to see the notices to appear show up at NYIC, but also at Catholic Charities. We've also received people at our doors. Not as much as Catholic Charities, but we've seen families come here seeking support and help. When they're released from detention, they're not given their identity documents or any of their belongings. Then, because of that, that then provides them with challenges in receiving shelter as a family, as well as other services and care that they need in the moment.
Brian Lehrer: Listeners, I see some calls are already coming in and other people are welcome to call and help us report this story. If you're involved with any migrants seeking asylum in this country recently up from the southern border, or if you are one of those migrants yourselves, we want to hear from you, 212-433-WNYC. Or, if you have a comment on the policy implications of all of this, 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer for Murad Awawdeh, Executive Director of the New York Immigration Coalition and Maryann Tharappel, Director of Special Projects for Catholic Charities.
Murad, let me stay with you for a minute as the advocacy person here. Let me read Governor Abbott's actual statement on this and get your reaction. I don't have audio. I believe this was only a written statement, but I'm going to read it. Abbott says, "Because of President Biden's continued refusal to acknowledge the crisis caused by his open border policies, the State of Texas has had to take unprecedented action to keep our community safe. In addition to Washington, DC, New York City is the ideal destination for these migrants who can receive the abundance of city services and housing that Mayor Eric Adams has boasted about within the sanctuary city," the statement said.
He continues, "I hope he follows through," talking about Adams, "I hope he follows through on his promise of welcoming all migrants with open arms, so that our overrun and overwhelmed border towns can find relief," from Governor Greg Abbott. Murad, my question for you is, is the governor of Texas partly right? If asylum should be seen as a national responsibility and Texas is seeing many, many thousands of asylum seekers this year, I saw the number 239,000 from May alone according to the Customs and Border Patrol Agency, is it perhaps right to have people stay in various places around the country while they pursue their asylum claims?
Murad Awawdeh: Well, I think, Brian, one thing to note is that folks who are seeking asylum in this country at times are doing a 3,000-mile trek to the southern border. Then, as they're coming in, they're actually lawfully entering the country. There haven't really been major changes to policy, because we still have Title 42 and Remain in Mexico in place in this moment. I think that under the Trump administration, they did everything that they could to gut the asylum process, that it's indicative of President Biden to make sure that he restores asylum.
To your other question, I think that the more important piece here is that as folks who are coming into the US seeking asylum and have the ability, they've gone through detention and they're being released, they should have a choice in where they go. They should be able to, instead of being misled and telling them to go to New York City, they should choose where they want to go. In addition to that, after their 3000-mile trek, some folks are being bussed by the governor of Texas, Governor Abbott, almost 2000 miles away, at times not receiving food along that route and not being allowed off the bus.
Just the other day when the bus arrived at Port Authority here in New York City, one young person needed medical care, and he needed insulin. Yesterday, one person needed medical care as well. It's not just that the people are being misled at times. It's also that they're not being treated humanely and not given the dignity that they deserve. In this moment, yes, to your question that we do have, we are a sanctuary city, we are a right to shelter state, but at the end of the day, what Governor Abbott is doing is exploiting asylum seekers to advance his political ambitions and using them as a political football to get his poll numbers up.
Brian Lehrer: There's no question that he's doing that. Since you, in general, advocate for New York to welcome migrants in general with open arms, as Abbott put it, to what degree is your message to the mayor to say, "Come on in, because this is what New York should stand for"?
Murad Awawdeh: I think that has been the mayor's message. I think the mayor has been welcoming, and over the past couple of days has also echoed that. I think in this moment we, as a city and a state, are dealing with a number of different things that we just have to be better coordinated at this point. We've been in constant communication with the New York City Mayor's office. We've just spoken to the New York City Council Speaker, as well as Justin Brannan, who's the Finance Committee chair in the City Council to make sure that we are preparing the city to welcome folks who are coming here and provide them with the care that they deserve.
Brian Lehrer: Maryann, before we go to some phone calls-- my other guest is Maryann Tharappel from Catholic Charities-- I don't want to lose sight of the situation on the ground for the families arriving here, and make this all about the politics between Adams and Abbott. I saw a statement released by Catholic Charities that says, "Those who have come to our offices and parishes have been provided with emergency assistance, food, basic clothing items, toiletries, as well as critical information on shelter and medical resources. Many have appointments with immigration officials in the coming months and our legal services staff is beginning to review their situation." In what conditions and with what needs are you seeing people arriving?
Maryann Tharappel: Yes, Brian. What Murad has shared is accurate. The people that we're receiving at our offices are tired. They have been on a bus for multiple days. They have, by and large, reported that all of their personal belongings were taken from them at the Southern border, and that upon release from detention, those personal belongings were not given back to them. Individuals are coming to New York without basic identity documents like Murad noted, including marriage certificates or birth certificates that indicate familial relationships, many of which are necessary to be able to be placed into a shelter system together.
Furthermore, basic necessities like medications, even their Bibles, have been taken from them. They are distraught, they are concerned, they do not have any resources here. Several have reported that they wanted to come to New York because they did, in fact, have a family or friend tie in New York, but upon arrival that family or friend tie is no longer able to actually have them stay with them. They are in an emergent need for safe housing. Entering the shelter system has been really difficult and traumatic for this population, primarily when they aren't able to prove their family situation, meaning that a family may come to New York as a family unit, a mother and a father with children, they don't have a way to prove that they are in fact a family unit.
The adult male in the family unit is placed into a men's shelter, or if one of the children is of a mature age, they're placed into an adult shelter, while the mother and the young children are placed into a family shelter. This type of situation is really problematic for this population. They've come to this state without any resources, and staying together is their primary need. They want to stay together. We've really encouraged in our conversations with the Mayor's Office, as well as with City Council, and city and state officials that there be a welcome center or a respite center where these family units are able to stay together.
In terms of their legal needs, though they are concerned about their legal needs because of the impending court dates or check-in dates, there's massive confusion, Brian, about what they have to do or not do and what does this notice mean versus that notice. This need for legal orientation processing, this understanding of the system in which they're entering and how to navigate it effectively, given the lack of access to representation for this population, which is another issue that we have been incredibly vehement and clear with the city about. These individuals are in active removal proceedings. They need representation.
The chances of success for a person in removal proceedings increases dramatically if they have an attorney. It is really a complex set of circumstances and does vary between country to country. For example, many Venezuelans entering the United States at the Southern border are given limited parole allowances, meaning they're allowed to be paroled into the United States for a number of weeks and are required to check in with ICE. Others are not given parole at all and are just placed into immigration court proceedings and have hearing dates for the end of July, early August, going into September, October and November, and aren't certain about what their responsibilities and rights are.
We've really marshalled our immigration court help desk to respond to this issue, to be able to be that first responder to give an individual information about what their responsibilities are to the court, to the Department of Homeland Security, as well as to Enforcement and Removal Operations if they are required to have a check-in. In terms of meeting their basic needs, Catholic Charities has been marshalling on our own generosity as well as that of the people that really support our work to meet those basic survival needs, providing them with a bag of toiletries, giving them directed referrals to a path intake center, ensuring that this family does in fact have all of the information that they need to make it through the next day or even that night.
Brian Lehrer: So much uncertainty, so many complicated needs for these families, as we talk about the state of Texas sending busloads of migrants to New York City from near the Texas-Mexico border with Maryann Tharappel from Catholic Charities and Murad Awawdeh from the New York Immigration Coalition. Ariadna in the Bronx, you're on WNYC. Hi Ariadna, thank you for calling in.
Ariadna: Hi, Brian. Thank you for having me.
Brian Lehrer: You're working in this arena yourself, I see.
Ariadna: Yes, I'm an organizer for South Bronx Mutual Aid. We work across a wider network of mutual aid and response just from regular New Yorkers to all around New York City. We have a network within the ICE watch network of people that just step in. We take care of whatever needs to be taken care of, because many of us are immigrants ourselves, coming from immigrant families. Exactly what was mentioned already on air, the plight of the families is horrific by the time they've reached here. In many cases, we're also talking about Indigenous families that have been displaced in their home countries.
There are, at times, US corporate interests or government interests that have caused their displacement to end up here in the United States. Once they arrive here, there is just a labyrinth between what their legal situation may be, in many cases we've encountered now for months, that these buses have been coming in, they're just now being politicized by Abbott and in the news. These buses have been coming for months. In many cases, it's just groups like ours, grassroots groups, that are on the ground receiving people when we get notice that the buses are coming in and trying to navigate, helping people point-to-point.
There's an absolute need for the type of center that was being discussed, a center that can receive people and help them through this process, because I just want to say I've been on the ground, I've been going for now 41 hours straight, working with some of the buses that recently arrived this weekend, and there's a lot going on. Families are coming in and they have no knowledge of where they're supposed to go, what they're supposed to do.
They're coming in blind sometimes without identity documents, without phones, without money, without a way to communicate or reach people.
It's our folks greeting them, it's our folks helping them as soon as they step off of the bus, and all of our friends and [unintelligible 00:20:32] comrades that are coming through to make sure that people are being taken into shelter intake centers, that there's translation for them, that there's explanation that they may not have regular documentation to prove identity, but they might have court documents or when CBP took their documents, there's another way to identify them but they do have a right to housing.
We had people over the last weekend that were turned away from the shelter intake center, so going back in with them and making sure that their circumstances were explained so that they would be processed and then helping them get transported because sometimes the place that you go in for intake is not the same place that you're going to be housed. There could be two separate places across two separate boroughs, and migrants were not always told that there might be a bus provided that would take them from point A to point B.
We've been intercepting migrant families, in some cases with small children, at all hours of the day and night that are just on the street and they don't have a way to reach anybody. We're just intercepting them and transporting them and making sure that they know they have friends here in New York, that they have people that care about them and are going to stand with them in solidarity, that we're not going to abandon them. We're not going to leave them stranded.
Brian Lehrer: Ariadna, thank you so much for your work and thank you for sharing some of that with us. Murad, is there a federal responsibility here, and are they stepping up? I know Mayor Adams has asked the Biden administration for more help. We have this disparate situation state by state, where New York, as Ariadna was just reminding us, has a right to shelter. Texas does not. Florida does not. Other states with a lot of migrants, but we have different official political attitudes toward those migrants, and yet immigration and asylum seeking is really a federal thing.
People are coming to the United States as a country to seek asylum from Guatemala and Honduras and Venezuela and wherever. They're not seeking asylum from the city of New York or the city of Houston. What's the federal responsibility here in your opinion to aid New York, or for that matter, to aid Texas?
Murad Awawdeh: I think that's a question that folks have at the top of mind. The federal government has to step up more than they have been. There's a number of different things that they could be doing in this moment. Currently, there is or there was about $100 million dollars in FEMA dollars that were made available to initially Southern states that were expecting to receive individuals. There is resources available for shelter and food that is out there. I believe that the city, if they haven't, they're about to apply for that funding as well.
The other piece here is that the federal government needs to truly ensure that they restore asylum from the Trump era. The Trump era, they instilled these horrific policies that gutted the asylum process. Then, they also need to make sure that they're stepping up, not just for asylum seekers who are coming now, but also for folks who have been here for a long time in the United States and provide a pathway for legalization in this country.
It's a multi-prong approach that they need to really take up. The last time we had any meaningful immigration reform was over 35 years ago. We really need to think about the entire spectrum that we're talking about, as opposed to just this one instance right now, but there are supports, there are resources from the federal government. This just even goes back to governor Abbott's intentions in this moment, because if this is really about resources, the resources are there for his state to access, but he's utilizing this moment and exploiting asylum seekers to push his agenda and to use them as a political football.
Brian Lehrer: Is either of you a lawyer?
Murad Awawdeh: Maryanne is the attorney in charge at Catholic Charities.
Maryann Tharappel: I am. I am a lawyer.
Brian Lehrer: Then, I think Cindy in Manhattan has a question that's going to go to you, and then we're going to be out of time. Cindy, you're on WNYC. Hi.
Cindy: I don't understand why somebody isn't filing a lawsuit against Abbott for what he's doing. This seems to me it can't be legal. You can't just take people and put them on a bus and send them somewhere else. They have to put a stop to this.
Brian Lehrer: Right. We have another version of it. Cindy, thank you. We have another version of it from a listener on Twitter, Maryann, who asks this-- sorry, let me get that back up. I have Cindy's box in front of me. Here it is. Listener asked very directly on Twitter, "Is this trafficking? Is Texas breaking the law, if, as the mayor claims, they are forcing people to come to New York who really want to go elsewhere?"
Maryann Tharappel: I think it's an interesting question to address both points. I think that there are individuals at the Southern border who are indicating that they want to come to New York. Then, there are people who are wanting to come to New York or somewhere else and maybe being forced. It's a very nuanced and complex issue about what's happening at the border. What we can say without question is that for CBP, for the Customs and Border Patrol agents to be placing or utilizing shelter or nonprofit addresses on these notices is an abhorrent practice that must be stopped.
That is a place where potential lawsuit is something worth exploring. It is something that we've talked about at the national level with Catholic Charities partners across the country. We are not the only Catholic Charities office nationally receiving these notices, nor are we the only one receiving people coming to our offices. This is a pervasive issue. Obviously, New York, DC, and Boston are incredibly inundated, but we do believe that there is a reason to bring this issue into litigation because of this improper use of notices to appear, because as Murad noted, this is the only address that the government has for this individual, and if this person is unable to receive that mail, they could be at risk of being ordered deported by missing a court date, and that is a violation of due process.
When the government is aware that these addresses are not correct, they have a duty to not prosecute. That is an essential component that needs to be understood here. Once the government is aware that this is not a correct address, they have to correct notice, and that is an essential piece to keep in mind here. Also, and related to that is that if there is a desire for people at the Southern border to move to New York or to go to another state, but they don't have an actual final destination address, there is nothing preventing the Department of Homeland Security and CBP by having no address listed and allowing these people to be released from detention, and then to check in with ICE, which all of them are required to do as an alternative to detention, they are placed in check-ins, meaning they have to either call, physically show up, or utilize an app on their ICE-issued phone to check in with ICE.
They can then update their address and do a change of address form once they have reached their final destination. This improper practice causes a lot of concern in terms of the day-to-day functionality of preserving due process for this population, but it also is a solution that is not difficult to come to terms with, and actually utilizing the widespread network of NGOs who are committed to this work.
If Southern border officials wanted to actually proceed in a humane and dignified way of processing this population, they should, in fact, work with national partners to ensure that the addresses are correct. This is where that inhumane behavior starts to become a real issue, because it's obvious to us that there is malice associated with these actions. Why would you send someone to an address where you know that there isn't residential access services available? Why would you send slew of people to any one location without giving that location a heads up and trying to create a coordinated response, so that we, too, are prepared and effectively able to receive this population?
Brian Lehrer: Maryann Tharappel, Director of Special Projects for Catholic Charities here in New York, which helps to settle and provide legal services for asylum seekers, and Murad Awawdeh, the Executive Director of the New York Immigration Coalition, the advocacy and immigration services organization, thank you very much both of you for joining us and filling the public in with more detail on what's going on below the surface of this battle between Mayor Eric Adams and Governor Greg Abbott. Thank you very much.
Maryann Tharappel: Thank you so much, Brian.
Murad Awawdeh: Thanks, Brian, for having us.
Copyright © 2022 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.
New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.