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Welcome to another edition of black man in America presented by your city station in cooperation with the city's commission on human rights these programs are broadcast Tuesday afternoons at five on W. N.Y.C. F.M. ninety three point nine mega cycles and Tuesday evenings at nine on W O N Y C eight hundred thirty killer cycles here now to tell you more about this important series is our moderator Good evening this is Bill booth and I am here to bring you another program in our series The black man in America our series has been devoted to examining the history and life of Afro Americans and the contributions they have made and are making the material cultural and spiritual wealth of this country since we are equally concerned with all ethnic religious and racial groups in this country is our pleasure tonight to examine the history and contributions of the Chinese Americans a group which has for a long time been stereotyped overlooked and neglected by the American public our guest this evening is Mrs Betty Lee son and we will be discussing her book mountain of gold a book which attempts to fully identify analyze and trace the position of the Chinese in America and when the song notes in her introduction quote Chinese Americans sometimes swallow the stereotype image of themselves can do it up by the public they look upon themselves as insignificant handicapped and discriminated against yet in this book you will learn about some Chinese who have made significant contributions to American science literature and the arts. This is one was born in America she lived in China for five years and has made five trips to the Far East and one around the world she speaks three Chinese dialects and for five years wrote a special program in the Chinese United States for the Voice of America with a Sung's involvement in her work has been quite substantial and significant and qualifies her quote to present the facts and let them speak for themselves her very purpose in writing this book The song is employed as a librarian in the Queensboro public library Ms sung what is the meaning of the title mountain of go mountain of gold is the Chinese colloquial expression for the United States it originated with the first Chinese who came to mind gold in the hills of California oh when this is very much like the gold in the street the southerners you say there's gold in the streets of the north of Chicago or New York and so forth well literally there was gold in the streets of California at the time and so the Chinese look upon the United States as the mountain of gold that's right have they been disappointed. When they first came they found gold but later on they went into other occupations and in comparison with their condition in their home village and home town in China they considered this a way for economic betterment when the Chinese people first migrate to the United States the first Chinese came in eight hundred forty eight shortly after the discovery of gold in California they went into mining and later were recruited in large numbers to work on the transcontinental railroad. Some went into farming and somewhat into small manufacturing where large numbers of Chinese people who Mark migrated back time yes. They at first were welcomed with open arms so that more and more Chinese came then what happened to cut down the population because I know the population of Chinese Americans today is not all as great is might have been expected from that first influx well as I said at first they were welcomed with open arms and they were praised for the industry and reliability but when economic reverses set in after the completion of the transcontinental railroad and a labor surplus developed the Chinese became convenient scapegoat. For the white man's plight and they were abused condemned harassed and even lynched and massacre and finally. Completely different didn't enter the country they were lynched and mass using That's right and they were forbidden to enter the country by laws the immigration laws that right that's true all together a total of fourteen pieces of legislation. Relating to Chinese Exclusion were passed by the US federal government the first was pass an eighteen eighty two and was intended only to suspend Chinese immigration or suspend Chinese unskilled labor for a period of ten years. But gradually. These laws were increase and eventually almost all Chinese were excluded and now there's been a reverse and that trend is not true yes the exclusion laws lasted for over sixty years and they were repealed in one nine hundred forty three but even after they were repeal they were only given a token quota of one hundred five per year it was based upon the number of Chinese who were coming in at the moment of that passage of the new law that's right and that number was very small because of the exclusion of Chinese Up till that time that's true and since the forty's that has lasted up till now when the restrictions are changed or removed and how many Chinese people are coming into America at the present time while the new laws came into effect actually they don't go into effect until this year but they were gradually being implemented and over the past two or three years up to one thousand or twenty thousand have been coming in country from a low of one hundred five which was the limit under the McCarren Act the water McCarran act a low of one hundred five to now one thousand to twenty thousand per year coming in from China sure as into the United States of America that's right so this tremendous increase is going to have a terrific impact on the community here and on. Attitudes and. Feelings toward the Chinese and now where are they coming from in China are they coming from Hong Kong or they're coming from other parts of China mainly from Hong Kong because the Chinese companies do not allow their people to leave the country now and do the immigrants who are coming here now defer very much from the first immigrants. Yes they do originally the first immigrants were able bodied men full grown men who came here to earn enough to go back to China so that they could buy the land and work and live in China now a since the exclusion laws were repeal. The immigration pattern has largely been women and children come to join their menfolk but now with the new law. I think this is that is that priority is given to those who are skilled and those who are professionals who are going to be families coming in so we're going to see a large number of families coming in families and children and skill and professionals and you'll see that the caliber of Chinese is going to be much higher this should make a considerable difference in the Chinese community in this country yes would you say that they might then be more vocal and more progressive and more concerned with the with government around them I think it's in the tri Chinese tradition to be humble and reticent and so far they do not trust the white men very much so they are inclined to be reticent and not say too much now are you saying then that the Chinese people. Being reticent. And the fact that they are mistaken images about them in scarcity information about Chinese in America that it's their own fault that's not due to apathy on the part of whites or on the part of others of American parents. Well it's both sides actually there weren't enough Chinese after the uproar and the intense persecution campaign sort of petered out. So that the Chinese the American people have not paid much attention to the Chinese community and on the part of the Chinese they withdrew into themselves they are their natural heritage not only because of their natural heritage because it was safer to do so so they withdrew into Chinatowns they set up their own organization and they took care of their own problems and they didn't bother anybody and when laws were passed against them they tried to circumvent the laws rather than try to confront the laws or test the laws or or do anything active toward eliminating some of the in what days now we all know that there are many stereotypes about Chinese people and I think that those of us who have not had close contact with many Chinese people live by the stereotypes that we hear and repeat rather than to repeat those stereotypes and I think that just reinforces them and it might be better if you would tell us how have you been treated by the news media by television radio newspapers I think the news media has. Tended to reinforce the popular conceptions of the Chinese and because they have had nothing to go on they just repeat what has been said before now what are some of the occupations generally pursued by Chinese Americans and and why were they chosen I think most Chinese Americans in years past have been in the laundry business or in restaurants and there were reasons for this of course as I said they first came to work as miners and then they went to work on the railroads. Then into farming and to small manufacturing and other jobs and fact they did everything but eventually the alien land X. of California for that them to own land so they they were cut off from the farm occupations. The unions did not allow them to go in so they were cut off from the factories and most people would not hire them so they had to. But they had already bought into their own resources and this why they found that in the West at the time women's work was in great demand and went begging at exorbitant wages so they went into the laundries and into cooking into domestic service and I'd like to point out here that with laundries although the young the Chinese do not consider it such a nice occupation and it is menial. In a way it was a salvation for them because they did not require much capital. They did not require much English knowledge of the English language in was a bar soap and scrub board they were in business they were removed from prejudice they didn't have to go out and ask the white men for a job they didn't have to compete with other white men for jobs. They were men who were your own destiny they were masters of their own destiny and if they worked hard and earn their own living then they didn't have to fear for layoffs or discrimination now we're talking with Mrs Betty Lee sung about her book mountain of gold which traces the struggle for survival acceptance and full participation in American life of the Chinese American from the Gold Rush days of the present and we're just about halfway through our program but I think Mrs song everyone would like to know more about the contributions the real contributions of the Chinese American to this great country of ours United States of America well. I think now that you're going to see a different pattern of Chinese occupations and contributions which are very little known. Since one thousand nine hundred three and the repeal of the Exclusion Act and the communist takeover of mainland China there have been a number of political refugees that have come here government people intellectuals who have come to this country and together with this group and the people before. Who were here they have been highly educated group. So that. When the their years of prejudice were let down they stepped into jobs and after a very brief period were able to prove themselves able and capable of doing. A job just as well as anybody else so that they have really made positions and mix for themselves in practically all fields of endeavor can you name some of the great Chinese Americans and their accomplishments in the field of politics arts science finance or any other with like I have a little a Chinese American History course here tonight or let me mention a few of the better known Chinese Americans and politics there is Senator Hiram following who was honored very late May very recently by being nominated as that state's favorite son candidate for president in Miami. In physics there is doctors C. and yang and tediously who won the Nobel Prize for Physics in one nine hundred fifty seven for disproving the principle of parity their colleague Dr Ro AWOL is the foremost female experimental physicist in the world in the field of biochemistry there is Dr C. H. The Who is the world's foremost authority on the pituitary gland he isolated and synthesize a C.T. H. and the human growth hormone dunking months watercolors hang in all the major museums of the United States and then Utahns books are found in almost every library James wall How has been at the top of his profession and cinematography and one of the most demanding in the street which is Hollywood for nearly fifty years. I am they is the architect for the Kennedy Memorial Library and Jerry Ty has scaled the pinnacle of Wall Street finance and then we certainly know a little bit more about Chinese American history and contributions as a result of your two minute recitation just then but I certainly would recommend if anyone wants to know more about the story of the Chinese in America they could read mountain of gold by Barry Lee sung and put up by Macmillan company and certainly this is about the only book there is it's kind of writing a song well it's not the only one but I'd like to think that it's the best one Well it certainly is cran was fact and it's easy reading and certainly that some of the titles of your chapters are interesting the fountain head for example the next chapter the pioneers the Chinese the next when the Chinese must go I think we're seeing some of history even in the chapter headings taking the consequences the next the crack in the door and the one I like Chapter seven honorable deception what that means. Means some of the ruses and ways the Chinese you to come into the country although they were denied entrance honorable deception and the next you say laundries a haven and a prison and certainly we've explained that already restaurants a natural inclination and then next shows the religion of the Chinese many roads to heaven and then next to the Chinese getting to the best places maybe or explain that to me Well I think the that there is very very little prejudice against the Chinese in the United States. Today I think they have. Broken down the economic barriers there except that socially there is practically no prejudice against them in housing I don't say that there is non but it would be isolated to the Chinese people identify at all with the civil rights movement. Unfortunately I think the Chinese have not identified with the civil rights movement although I feel that they have benefited immensely from the rights Fortan won by the black men do you have in Chinese communities organizations comparable to the any A.T.P. or the end of defamation league organizations which are set out to fight prejudice and discrimination no they have no comparable organizations such as the Anti-Defamation League or the N A A C. here although sometimes the Chinese do call the N A C P The National Association for the advancement of Chinese people and I understand we had a community meeting in or near Chinatown recently our commission then and there was always there who said that much of the material that comes from city agencies is not printed in Chinese and none of it's printed in Chinese and that therefore there is not access to city agencies and to the services of the agencies that they ought to be maybe we ought to ask the Chinese people to demand from thirty agencies that some of the material be published so they can read it to. As I said before I don't think the Chinese are very demanding and they won't ask for it unless it's probably offered to them in your book Mr Song you speak of acculturation versus assimilation when referring to the Chinese American would you explain the difference yes I think the Chinese will never be fully assimilated as long as there is physical identity or physical differentiation in the terms of the social scientists I think Assimilation means letting go of the old taking on the new and being accepted. Now acculturation means only letting go of the old and taking on the new but whether they'll be ever fully accepted is another question when you say in chapter fifteen joining the main stream Are you saying now that really they have not joined the mainstream they are called to write it but they're not assimilated and could you just give us an idea quickly of the pattern of distribution of Chinese in this country where are Chinese located in the main. The largest number is in California in and around San Francisco New York has a large group and Honolulu has a large group and these three places have seventy five percent of the Chinese and how many Chinese are they all told in the United States according to the last census there were about two hundred thirty seven thousand but this number has been increased and I think that by nine hundred seventy you will find about three hundred thousand Chinese Does that include honorable deception to that includes all of them. I'm interested I think to know that we've got a population of close to three hundred thousand people who have heart hardly been heard from at all in the United States and you say that this is because of all of history that has gone on in our country that's true can you tell me do Chinese people tend to form their own communities wherever they are in the world or is it is it just in the United States if this happens you know the Chinese like to form their own organizations they have Chinatowns wherever they have gone in the world there are a large Chinese communities in Southeast Asia and everywhere they go they as a rule they tend to retain their own culture and have their own groups of the close to three hundred thousand Chinese Americans here would you know how many are American born. Over sixty one percent are American born but I think this percentage will decline because of the large influx in recent years and this is going to continue the large number of Chinese people coming in will continue and maybe even the rate will go up by. The rather large influx may not consider continue for long because there's such a backlog waiting. From years past when they're only one hundred five permitted to enter and so the people eventually who will have their family member. Join them all these people will have come and then the influx will not the rate of increase will not always be maintained at such a high level Mr Song a very tough question I believe what is the attitude of the Chinese American with reference to China since we have the strained relations between America and China Red China so-called Is there any real. Close ties to China or is there closeness to America the Chinese who are born here fully identify with the United States and those who have cut their ties with China I think I've given up. Their allegiance to that country but somehow or other there always be that sentiment and that identity of the Chinese and pride in their cultural background because I know that when we talk of China we talk of Hong Kong most times we don't talk about inner China and that's been for some fifteen to twenty years I suppose that we haven't talked about China at all. Is there a reticence on the part of Chinese people to talk about their country because of their natural heritage or is it because they believe that might be difficulty with the American government if they did that's a very very difficult position to be in. Although they do not. Are not. Pro why one government all the other I think that most of them feel that they are now Americans and they're very glad to be here and they're happy and proud to be American citizens but you can't help help that natural tie to your country you know I think these the Irishman is just. Pro Ireland on St Patrick's Day as the tie ins are on Columbus Day Everybody is concerned about education these days Mr Song What is the Chinese view or is there a Chinese you are there many Chinese views on the education problems that affect the New York City and other cities other large cities today. I don't know whether we have any views on the. There on the education as it affects the Chinese in New York City as such but the Chinese have always had a love of learning scholars were the most highly esteemed people in China so they have this cultural heritage of the love of learning and does that reflect itself in the decentralization issue that is presently boiling up so much in New York for me I don't think that has anything to do with it at the moment so that you believe there has not been a position taken there is no position on and I doubt if any of us have position yet I mean there's been so much confusion in Chinese or otherwise. Can you explain another thing that has intrigued me as a lawyer for nineteen years and practicing the criminal court I've noted and as have many others have noted the low crime rate among the Chinese people and particularly among you there doesn't seem to be any great increase in the rate of crime by Chinese people is that so yes the the statistics bear that out Chinese culture is based largely on Confucian teachers and this emphasizes morality and ethics and the cultivation of virtues I'm glad of the confusion and the confusion and we want to make that clear don't we. So that industry and honesty and self-sacrifice and humility are part of a Chinese person's upbringing that's why the Chinese worker will not shirk his duties whether he's being watched or not and in business dealings the word of a Chinese is as good as they've gone and in a way that explains the low crime rate among the Chinese in years past but I think that in. Very lately there have been some instances of juvenile delinquency or pre juvenile delinquent. See and this may reflect a large influx of people coming in the tremendous transformation that is going to take place in the Chinese communities and I think that this their study and that there is watching Well certainly respect for the elder is a part of your creed the Chinese creed and that probably work out in large part for the lack of criminal activity on the juveniles part but it doesn't account for this lack of criminality on a part of the adults and yet we know that the statistics to show a very low crime rate in a part of the adult Chinese and is there something more to it than just the respect for elders Yes As I said it's the Confucian Confucian. The Confucian teachings emphasize the the morality and ethics and so a person is born brought up to. To be good and to develop himself and to observe rules and regulations and to respect authority now you say that there is very little discrimination against the Chinese as Chinese but isn't it true that he's still excluded from some jobs from some ministry from some areas there are always be isolated instances of people who don't know about the Chinese who have never hair Chinese workers before and there maybe but I think employers now are beginning to ask for Chinese people and ask for Chinese workers because of these qualities that you mention before that's right now your book mountain of gold I believe and on a good note on a note of hope for less Can you spell out what you believe is the result of all these pages on the work. Well I hope that this climate and feeling of goodwill and acceptance of the Chinese will continue as we have seen prejudice is very irrational. At one time they were welcomed with open arms and praise for the industry and reliability in the next instance they were rejected and excluded now we're back in an era of goodwill and I hope that this continues and you don't believe do you miss a song that the international situation between China and America is going to have much influence upon this hopefulness that you've got for the Chinese community Well we're all maybe a little bit apprehensive but we hope not and that there is a change in the character of. The Chinese people who are entering our country at the present time and they're entering as you say in large numbers much larger numbers than ever before that's true middle song or do you have some last statement you like to make for the Chinese American community do you have some words of advice or some hint of pitfalls or some direction that they ought to be taking Well I hope that more studies will be made into the Chinese community so that we can know get to know them better and you think that these studies are being made by the Chinese themselves yes I think that's the only way you're going to be able to find a true picture of the Chinese community Well certainly it's been good talking with you and to learn of the Chinese American community to some extent mine I hope that our listeners will read mountain of gold the story of the Chinese in America by Mrs Betty Lee sung with a song Our time is just about up and I thank you very much for being with us on the black man in America a mountain of gold is a most informative and interesting book a book worth reading pick up a copy of the nearest bookstore it's published by the Macmillan Company of New York City and certainly not of gold or is easy reading sixteen chapters but they're read very quickly and I certainly hope that you'll read at this billboard saying Please be with us again next week we will have missed out on the black. We welcome your comments on these programmes send your cards and letters to black man in America W N Y C New York one hundred zero seven and join us again next Tuesday afternoon at five on W N.Y.C. F.M. or next Tuesday evening at nine on W N Y C like a man in America is a feature present Taishan of your city station broadcast in cooperation with the New York City Commission on Human Rights.