This episode is from the WNYC archives. It may contain language which is no longer politically or socially appropriate.
Abrams, Chairman of the State Commission Against Discrimination, answers question about discrimination in housing and employment.
Marvin Sleeper hosts.
Panelists: Ruth Corsnick, Jim Farrell, Mike Spielman, and Alan Siegel
Questions:
The progress made over the next year will be legislative and administrative. To stop discrimination in employment, change must be industry-wide. A state-wide anti-discrimination housing bill and the Sharkey-Brown-Isaacs bill against discrimination in housing. The Commission can institute regulatory action in the event of a complaint. Migration of Puerto Ricans and "Negroes" is an indication that employment is widening. Minorities in department stores, public accommodations from which they have previously been excluded. Most notable gains in insurance, banking, brewing, railroads. A negro woman from New York was hired to work for an airline. Failure to hire by the airlines has been mentioned abroad. Hiring of a negro helicopter pilot. Specifications for hiring women as airline hostesses: the airlines have always felt the girl must be a "banker's daughter type": good complexion, good legs, certain weight and age. "A negro girl can have a good complexion and be qualified to do the chores one has to do in airlines." TWA has promised to make efforts to hire in flight capacities. Public hearing has been scheduled. American Airlines, probable cause has been found. Differences between upstate and downstate complaints: housing is the greatest problem because migrations have increased. A non-discriminatory pattern in industry in Syracuse, but there is lag in advancement. All cities upstate, including New York, jobs are available for non-whites, but no applicants apply. To improve housing, a supply of housing is required; the vacancy rate is less than 1% in the city. Reforms should include loans for buying and renting. The current complaint system takes more time than they'd prefer. He doesn't favor a penal law for offense. Probable cause was found against TWA, and the president resigned. They are deciding whether or not to redefine their policy.
Audio courtesy of the NYC Municipal Archives WNYC Collection
WNYC archives id: 72043
Municipal archives id: LT7893
This is a machine-generated transcript. Text is unformatted and may contain errors.
Will there be civil rights progress in New York state during the coming year and what industries has New York been most successful in bringing about anti discriminatory hiring one of the bottlenecks of the state commission against discrimination to the state legislature outlaw discrimination and private housing. For the answers to these and other questions let's go now to your city stations cannabis press conference each week at this time in this transcribed discussion editors of college newspapers question a news where they personality Marvins labor award winning reporter and columnist for The New York Journal America's moderator of the service now to introduce the panel in tonight's guest here is Mr Slater Good evening and welcome to another edition of campus press conference our guest tonight is Mr Charles Abrams Mr A move the chairman of the state commission against discrimination this week Governor Harmon and his message for the opening session of the state legislature call for a statewide anti-bias private housing bill the flood just like your past is such a measure it will be Mr Abrams commission that will administer the build so let's find out just what the bill means and why it is needed and here's a question Mr Abrams our campus press conference report is record look of the Columbia Graduate School of Journalism Jennifer out of the for the lexigram Mike Spielman of the C.C.N.Y. tappers and Alan Siegel of the N.Y.U. square journal and what about the first question from you might be a limb question or Abrams what will be the nature of the civil rights progress made in New York State next year well I think that the progress that will be made will be both on the legislative level and on the administrative level. By that I mean this that in legislation as Governor Harriman said in his message last week there are two items of legislation which he favors one is to give the commission. The power to initiate investigations on its own motion instead of on waiting by waiting on complaints that's extremely important because I believe that if discrimination in employment is to be ended that it must be done on an industry wide basis rather than on the basis of individual complaints today about one percent of the industries in New York state employee fifty percent of the workers and the decision of a single personnel manager in a plant employing ten thousand or fifteen thousand workers can borrow a whole race from employment in that company and in an industry employing tens of thousands so that I believe that if real progress has to be made we must do it on an industry wide basis that is where we get a complaint against. One company and that company feels that. That it's being singled out for action that we should have the right to call in other industries as we did in the case of the airlines that's one piece of legislation that I think is very important and as governor I'm and said. Eight states have such legislation and New York lags behind and all of the eight states at the meeting of the Governors Conference on Civil Rights a few weeks ago all agreed that that was one of their most important tools in ending discrimination a second Bill. That would get it is to outlaw discrimination in large scale private housing. That is in multiple dwellings. Called horizontal dwellings where ten or more houses are owned by a single person that died like a break in for a moment there recently the city passed that anti-bias private housing bill the shocking Brown Isaacs Bill. How would this dovetail with a state bill would it be. That the state you would administered outside of New York City and the state bill would apply outside of New York City or would you both cooperate the city and the state and ministering it in New York City well a great deal of this of this prejudice is found well that's hard to say until the bell is introduced but if the previous presidents are followed where are they sitting is entered as day several rights bill and subsequently a state law is passed the state would get jurisdiction that's not necessarily so but I don't believe that the fewer agencies that are. On hand to administer. Discrimination to administer the discrimination problem I think the less confusion there as among the people so that. I think that I did without predicting as to what the bill would say but on the basis of previous precedent that it would be an all state bill to apply to the whole state including New York City giving the commission the jurisdiction Well then after a six month hassle in which this bill has been in the headlines as far as New York City is concerned and it became almost a hot political issue when it was put over until after the election it was finally passed in New York City do you mean that after all this if a the state passes a bill that the city's powers. And trying to eliminate bias in private housing would be gone not necessarily it depends on what the bill would say he. If the city would one would want to retain jurisdiction of it then the state bail would apply to areas outside of the state. I'm in no position to say what the bill will provide Jim Fassel also using it if it were a state wide authority that it would rest in my hands of the state commission against criminal action in the light of the fact we have a Republican legislature do you think that there's much chance that they would prefer to put such unfortunate powers in the hands of the attorney general or as on a national level a special assistant attorney general set up for such a job well there again I can't predict what the what the Republican Party would want to do and the attorney general now has the right to file complaints and he has a man in charge of filing complaints with the commission in the event that the attorney general discovered as some discriminatory action. But last year when an agency was sought to be set up in the attorney general's office with an appropriation of a hundred thousand dollars all of the civic and social organizations in New York State opposed it as a unit because of the conflict and confusion that would bring. My feeling is that civil rights should be administered in a single agency so that a person who is a green knows where to apply well and that your feeling that the state agency should take over the city responsibilities and that well I I can't say because the commission has taken no position on that bill and I I'm not in a position to say just what happens I will say that on the discrimination bracing F.H.A. and V.A. did housing and publicly aided housing previously that the history of it was that the city passed such a bell and then the state assumed jurisdiction so that if that's a precedent that's what would happen Alan Thicke commission of could you tell us just how the commission works. In cases of discrimination yes we have the Right now only to instant Dhoni to institute regulatory action on the basis of a complaint so that a complainant comes to the commission and files a verified complaint. That complaint is assigned to one of the five commissioners by me as chairman and thereafter the complaint is investigated by the commissioner to whom the complaint has been assigned the commissioner may determine that there is probable discrimination or he may determine that there is no probable discrimination in the event that he determines that there is probable discrimination he makes a finding to that effect it's called a finding of probable cause and then. Goes into conciliation and confidential conciliation with the respondent with the employer. And attempts to have the discriminatory practices removed if he fails to affect the conciliation. Then. That's referred to me and I appoint three commission as. Then the commissioner who heard the complaint and those three commission as then have a public hearing at which all of the evidence pro and con is a deuced and they make a decision. They can throw out the case or if they find that there is discrimination then they make what is known as a cease and desist order which is reviewable by the court at which time the respondent again has a chance to have the decision of the commission is revealed through coarsening commission I've heard you mention the airlines earlier this evening and of the Harmons report mentioned several other industries including this as well as the airlines the hotels the railways and the banking industry in which areas would you feel that scatters and most successful so far in accomplishing and I discovered Tory policy Well I would say that the law has accomplished a great deal and economics has accomplished a great deal as well. With full employment. You. Naturally have a call upon the largest. Labor supply that is possible and the migration into New York City of American citizens from Puerto Rico and Negroes. Are is an indication of the fact that employment is widening simultaneously the law has. Without any pressures at all the law itself has widened employment you begin to see. Negroes and other minorities in department stores and in various enterprises from which they were previously barred and also in public accommodations such as restaurants and hotels great gains have been made specifically through the action of the commission I would say that within the last year or two the most notable gains have been made in insurance in banking in brewing in the railroads where for the first time. Yard conductors found working on the railroads. And other employers who employ easily previously barred. I also feel that considerable progress has been made in housing in F.H.A. and V.A. to housing where a survey revealed that many builders in projects upstate were accepting and nonwhites as well as whites in all white projects now not all of this receives a great deal of publicity. But the fact is that the law is having an impact both in public accommodations and in employment. As well as in. As in publicly aided housing going back to the airlines and as I recall there was one airline stewardess hired wasn't there a negro recently but that's really York City where we are in she was hired she lives in New York City and she she is going to fly out of the Newark Airport I said well what further progress do you expect during the year as far as their lines are going this is just one line and one person this is this is typical of the work of the commission. It takes a long time to break an industry of the industry the airline industry is a very peculiar industry and that. The hostesses and the pilots have always been of the white race and. From its what it might be known as a showcase industry this has been a very bad thing from the standpoint of American morale because these airlines fly the American flag abroad and discrimination or failure to hire by the airlines has been mentioned in in papers prominently abroad now the first break that came with the airlines was in the ground capacities and you'll find reservation agents and mechanics and other negroes nig members of the Negro race working in ground capacities but they were not present in flight capacities except that one pilot was working on a minor freight line affray line but never on passenger S.S. about a year ago New York Airways broke that pattern by hiring a negro pilot who has now been elevated to the captaincy That's the helicopter service. There after after continuous negotiations with airlines the Mohawk Airlines. Voluntarily without filing a complaint after negotiation with the commission which lasted for several months and decided to hire this hostess and it was a very interesting very interesting because he ocean. We had eight of the best Negro girls who were best qualified Negro girls interviewed at our office by the Mohawk Airlines and Miss Taylor was selected she's a nurse she attended college and she's a high school graduate and her father was an upstate farm of Truman's burg and she's a very nice girl and I feel that once you make the initial break in an industry such as the airlines that there is a greater likelihood that the other airlines will follow. And there are problems and the airlines have always felt that the girl must be what they call a bank has got a tight bath good complection good legs not more than a certain weight not over a certain age and specifications that very very rigid. I've always maintained that they grow girl can have good complection and. Be qualified to do the chores that one has to do on an airline Secondly this line was broken in baseball and it can be broken in in the airlines industry ensure Well do you have any plans to break through on any of the other major airlines in the foreseeable future yes public hearings have been scheduled in the case of two airlines and one of the airlines that is T.W.A. has promised to make efforts to hire in the flight capacities whether it doesn't not I can't say but the public hearing in that case has been scheduled and we're waiting we want to know about developments within the next thirty days that is a public hearing with the T.W.A. That's right that's by going to buy one of the another negro complaint and what about that you say to where lines were it which is the other the American Airlines probable cause has been found but it's in conciliation it hasn't as yet been scheduled for a hearing is that the same kind of a case where the story the story as it was all that's right course like there aside from the concentration the logic observation of Puerto Ricans in New York City as a likely source of complaints for you Do you notice any different patterns between upstate and downstate this discrimination yes we've just completed three studies cities upstate. And in Syracuse in the Albany Troy area and in Rochester and what is being revealed in those studies in common is that housing is offering. The greatest problem the migrations of increased for instance in Rochester we just learned that. The population is and has grown to about four percent over four percent of the population since one thousand nine hundred fifty and the increase in population upstate is over forty in the state as a whole is over forty two percent industries are expanding and they're calling for labor and negroes and Puerto Rican citizens American citizens broader ago are applying for for these jobs now. In in the upstate cities you have a mixed pattern in some cities in Syracuse for instance we find a nondiscriminatory pattern by the manufacturing industries and there are only a handful of industries. But there is considerable Irag in advancement and we find also and this is one of our main problems in all cities upstate as well as New York I think it's one of the outstanding problems of the commission and that is that very often jobs are available for nonwhites and no applicants apply for those jobs and this is this is a problem to us we never get complaints from those people it's due on the one hand to the feeling on the part of minorities that they should not train for jobs for which they may not qualify what type of jobs are those with the labor well. The building trades for instance is one and one industry in which you don't get applicants applying for jobs and now we have a labor advisory committee. Consisting of the leaders of labor in New York and I feel that if. A qualified person were to apply that he could get a job through the help of this labor guys are a committee but there aren't many who are qualified or who apply or who follow come to us and one of the problems is is finding applicants they do not train for jobs which that qualify is there any way to publicize the problem to publicize the fact that Negroes are eligible for these jobs in the building trades and they should apply and should train themselves for them well this is why I go on the air and why I had a meeting today with representatives of the Negro press. The it's not all doom due to the fact that they fail to apply its due to the failure of guidance counts not to lead to the imperfection of guidance counseling and to the fact that. Many young persons don't go in for apprenticeship because of the fact that they get low salaries at the beginning or they feel that they shouldn't Apprentice and trades which are not customarily. Applicable to the to that particular group and I think one of the other problems is is the housing situation very often you don't get people going to cities where the housing situation is strange and for example in one upstate city there were four Negro engineers and when I was in Syracuse one Negro engineers were taken up by a large company. And they were told by the real estate board they have that there would be housing and they were given a long list of Suppose a vacancy is and after looking around three of them asked for a transfer this has happened in two other large companies. That we were in contact with another words housing upstate is the real problem housing is a problem in New York City too well and do you think the anti-discrimination bill in private housing will help the situation too was it also does tell together it will help it will help that will definitely help but. You actually need a supply of housing as well in other words. Anti-discrimination laws perform an important function but you also have to have an increase in the supply of housing when you get into these cities you'll find that the vacancy rate is is less than one percent for the city as a whole. So that even if there were no discrimination there would be few they can seize which would be available to to any people and I think Governor Harriman's. Advocacy of a two hundred million dollars lower and housing program is important but I I do think that the whole housing picture in the United States has to be looked at a new I think it's obsolete I think that the whole F.H.A. program has to be reorganized and I think that direct interest loans direct loans at low interest rates have to be made by the federal government for both homeownership and rental to reach the lower income groups particularly minorities who are migrating to the cities and to whom housing offers the greatest obstacle Jim Fowles Well sir how successful can you hope to be in cracking industries and cracking the housing problem if you have to rely on this what seems like a self-defeating or almost impossible complaint system I have in mind the potential complainant who looks at the futility of complaining if he fails well he fails and he's wasted effort if he succeeds he is faced with the fear of reprisal by the company which is forced ultimately to hire him well you can't do very much about that I would say that it occurs in. A number of cases. But I don't think it occurs in all cases you take Ms Taylor she did apply to the T.W.A. and was hired by Mohawk. And in addition to that the filing of complaint is important because. It's not only important for the person himself because he may win if the if he for instance if if he's a good carpenter and he files a complaint it doesn't necessarily mean that there's a hostile situation when we get in touch with the with the employer are with the union we may affect a very and often do effect a very satisfactory arrangement now. The other aspect of that is that when a complaint is filed it may open up a whole industry not only for that person but for all members of his group and that's why one single complaint is extremely important it would appear that this complaint method is highly personal rise your initiation of Investigation power if given would not be and you would be you're actually marking time now that's a comparison with what you would be doing with as no question about it that initiation that initiation of compliance on the Commission's own motion would do a great deal would do much more as far as the bill and all them is concerned when that legislation is drawn Have you any idea what the the the punishment will be will there be any punitive punishment to anyone who doesn't abide by the law well I don't. I don't know what the law well will say but I certainly don't favor. A penal law. The whole approach of the state commission against discrimination in the law which administers. Emphasizes conference conciliation and persuasion and we hold only. Perhaps to public hearings a year because in most cases where probable cause is found we find that the employer comes around. So that. The only the only time that you. I mean let's say if the three commissioners who hold a hearing do find probable cause and let's say the conciliation fails. And the allegations of the complaint is sustained. Under the state a lot of the respondent still has the right to accept it doesn't commit any crime he simply accepts the person on the basis of the ruling much the same as in any Several case when there's a finding and you have to accept the several court's ruling that's all there's no penalty connected with it any more than a penalty is connected with any violation of a court order but well I brought it up because I understand it in the city. Law that the finally could be brought to the courts the Second Amendment to the courts correct do you plan or do you do you know if Governor Harlan plans I'm called bring that type of thing in his legislation No I don't want to I don't think that that if the legislation. Is submitted it will be submitted I believe by the many of the civic groups and the church groups that it will rely to a great extent on conference conciliation and persuasion as in the case of employment that is that it won't have any unusual provisions and it will apply mainly to the multiple dwellings. Which very much are akin to hotels which have been covered by anti-discrimination laws for many years I'd like to get back to the your public hearing for a moment what is the history of this public hearing with T.W. way as it's happened. Well the in the case of T W A probable cause was found by Commissioner Conway and. Thereafter a new president was appointed he has since resigned and C.W.A. Yes F.T.W. way and the counsel for the T W I asked for an adjournment so that they could reconsider the policy. Was this on the complaint of a girl who wanted to become a stewardess That's right yes so that right now the question is whether. They will reconsider their policy and and I believe that the conference will be called conferences have been held in the past I believe the conference will be scheduled for somewhere around the fifteenth the Saturday the like month no no no that's not a public hero that will come after your conference and a public hearing would come after the conference if it's not house arrest. F.T.W. where he says we will hire a stewardess then there's no reason to airing it out in the public and what about the American Airlines case well there is that's pending conciliation and I can't say anything more about that growth question it Carter has that case in one of his or all your statements the commissioner indicated that although we're going from the study to the state level what is actually the most successful means of affecting discrimination in housing would be an all over federal program of limiting the reset the ends of loans for purposes of building and loans for purposes of mortgages especially on veterans' homes is this. A plan that you would advocate it's are you going to answer this in about three seconds Well I would say that there is a pamphlet coming out on Monday which I wrote on the the new leader is publishing get there's an appendix which is on the housing program of the federal government and I think that unless we increase the supply of housing and I give the program for this increase of supply you'll never solve the the problem of of housing or employment I'm sorry Mr Abrams we're out of time is just about it you've been listening to a campus press conference with Mr Charles Abrams chairman of the state commission against discrimination interviewing him were campus press conference report is Ruth course neck of the Columbia Graduate School of Journalism Jim Farland of Fordham lexigram Mike Spielman of the C.C.N.Y. campus and Alan Siegel of the N.Y.U. square Journal Many thanks for tuning in and a very pleasant week to you all. Editors of college newspapers have just interviewed the chairman of the New York State Commission Against Discrimination Charles Abrams on campus press conference our moderator each week is Marvin sleeper a New York Journal American columnist and reporter we invite your comments on this program please mail them to campus press conference W N Y C New York seven and be with us again next Sunday at nine P.M. for another edition of campus press conference a transcribed public affairs feature of your city station.