( John Minchillo / AP Photo )
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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. With us now is John Samuelsen, International President of the Transport Workers Union. In his role, he represents over 150,000 members across the airline, railroad, transit, universities, utilities, and services sectors, including MTA workers here in New York. John, welcome back to WNYC. Thank you so much for coming on today.
John Samuelsen: Thank you for having me back.
Brian Lehrer: First of all, how are your members who were on that train crew?
John Samuelsen: I think your previous guests use the word skittish and that is what they are as well as the rest of New York City transit workers. It's a very tense moment. The crew members from yesterday's incident acted heroically in many ways, evacuating the station, evacuating riders and injured folks out of the system. They're doing okay, but skittish is a good word.
Brian Lehrer: Listeners, some of you who are calling for Ashley Southall in the previous segment, really had subway questions. We were taking crime and law enforcement questions and questions about the suspect for her. If you want to call back with your subway questions for John Samuelsen, we can take them. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer. John, how are your members trained to anticipate or react to an active shooter situation in a subway car or on a platform such as this?
John Samuelsen: The train crews and station staff are trained in evacuation, but none of us are trained in active shooter situations at all. They are highly professional when it comes to evacuating in the midst of a disaster, and that is what happened yesterday. That is the importance of the two-person train crew as well.
Brian Lehrer: Mayor Adams says part of his response to this will be to flood the subways with even more police officers after increasing the police presence already this year. Do your members want more police presence?
John Samuelsen: Yes. Our members absolutely want a uniform police presence riding the system. The thing that we don't want are uniform cops or any cops for that matter policing the farebox and policing mischief perhaps by teenagers, or jumping off the turnstiles. We want cops in the system visible in uniform, we believe that's the greatest deterrent to not only crime in the system, but perhaps more immediately important to us, which is the rash of assaults against transit workers, which are averaging five a week or so. It's outrageous.
Brian Lehrer: Talk about that. I don't think that gets much attention. We hear about random assaults, robberies, whatever on riders, not very much about assaults on MTA personnel. Tell us what's going on.
Brian Lehrer: Historically, there's been an assault problem, particularly with TW members that are in direct contact with the riding public. Unfortunately, the pandemic has brought this to new heights, so we haven't-- In an era where subway ridership is down, assaults are up like 30%. It's been an extremely difficult last two and a half years for us or so, five assaults a week. I say this repeatedly that if five teachers were getting assaulted a week or five politicians, God forbid, they would bring in the National Guard to stop it, but somehow it's gone under the radar that five transit workers a week get assaulted in the boroughs of New York City. The four boroughs in New York, or really the five boroughs but it's a bus operation on Staten Island for the most part.
Brian Lehrer: Who's assaulting transit workers and why?
John Samuelsen: We're in a position where any mess up by New York City Transit, any kinds of bosses mess something up in terms of service reliability, or packed trains, criminal riders take that frustration out on what they see, which is the uniformed TW member for the most part. There are issues with mental illness, there are issues with the homeless in the subway, that have to be dealt with for sure. By and large, these assaults take place because of a perception that things are going bad in the subway or the bus system. The response is horrifically, assault the bus operator or the train operator or the conductor.
Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Here's Dan in Brooklyn. Dan, you're on WNYC with John Samuelsen, Head of the Transport Workers Union. Hi, Dan.
Dan: Yes, sir. It doesn't seem to me that the transit officer or transit person would have deterred in any way this individual. If there was an armed policeman on the train, there would have been gunfire in both directions. I'm just wondering, how do you distinguish in a subway car, dealing with people who are psychopathic as opposed to people who are engaged in crime and the police are supposed to react to them? It just puts an officer in an incredible position that seems to me almost impossible to deal with.
Brian Lehrer: A transit worker too. Do you understand the question, John?
John Samuelsen: I think I understand most of the question. The first piece of the question is that, I don't think anybody could say for sure whether a uniformed police officer in the subway system would have deterred this, possibly not, but certainly having uniformed police on the train are better for our members and for riders than not having uniformed police on the train. I think if you asked most of the riders in that railcar where the lunatic opened fire, they would strongly prefer to have an armed cop in the car. I know I would.
[crosstalk]
Brian Lehrer: Go ahead. No, finish your point. Go ahead.
John Samuelsen: The second piece is the piece which is far more complex, that is the amount of riders in the system that are walking around with serious mental illness. That's a broader societal problem, it certainly shouldn't be on the backs of transit workers winding up on assaults, and it shouldn't be on the cops alone. It's not what a police response in my mind is for. It's a broader societal issue that requires a multi-faceted response, including New York City Social Services, including addressing the housing issue, and a host of other things. I agree with the caller in that regard.
Brian Lehrer: Yes. I always like to say when topics like this come up, the vast majority of homeless people, and the vast majority of people with mental illness are not violent and never have been violent. When individual incidents take place that involves either one of those, people form stereotypes pretty quickly, but I just think it's important to say that while crimes involving anyone might take place, while crimes involving people with mental illness as our previous guest described the shooter in this case, is likely having some form of. Even if that happens, that doesn't mean people with mental illness, in general, should be treated as if they're risks of being violent.
I just think it's important to say that in general. To follow up on what you just said, John, some people say police don't really keep people safe in the subway. You can't stop this sort of thing in public places if someone is determined, except maybe airplanes where you have to go through a metal detector. Even more ordinary crimes like robberies and violent disputes between people who know each other will happen.
The police can't be everywhere. It's a net full of holes, that all the water can pour right through whether you double the police presence or not, they need to attack the conditions that lead to crime. You just mentioned some of those. I don't know if this is a TW issue one way or another, but it sounds like the union is one of those arguing for more police presence as this debate goes on in the city and in the state.
John Samuelsen: We absolutely are on the frontline of this and perhaps have a different perspective. A transit worker who was assaulted or any transit worker that go out on the road every day stand a very good chance to being assaulted right now. We firmly believe that a uniformed police presence is a deterrent to that. In fact, in speaking to our members, we've seen incidents where bus operators and conductors, and station staff believe that they are likely going to be assaulted, or the victim of a crime, and a uniformed cop showed up and the situation dissipated.
I do want to continue to distinguish between what the TW was calling for which is a uniformed police presence riding the system. We do have a problem with policing the farebox. We don't believe that that helps TW members, we don't believe it helps riders, we believe the cops have to be in the system. We don't believe that a 16-year-old kid who jumps a turnstile should have his life turned upside down for jumping the turnstile.
Again, there has to be a balance and that balance is we want cops in the system where transit workers are at risk.
Brian Lehrer: Mayor Adams was on the station this morning on Morning Edition with Michael Hill. He was talking about some new technology that could detect guns, maybe other weapons going into the system that don't involve that airport-style screening of every individual through a metal detector, or when you go into the ballpark or something. Here's the mayor on the station this morning.
Mayor Adams: We have identified several new technologies that are not like the metal detectors that are used at airports where you have to empty your pockets and go through a long line to get in. No, you just walk normally through the system. It is not even detectable that the devices are there. We think there's some great promise in this technology. We are going to continue to explore that.
Brian Lehrer: John, is that something you and the transport workers union are familiar with?
John Samuelsen: I'm not familiar with it. I'm familiar with the concept. I'm not familiar with the specific devices that the mayor is speaking about, but we would certainly be in favor of any measure that can be taken to reduce the assaults and the violent crimes against transit workers, and also to make the city system generally safer for our riders. We need our riders to come back and they're not going to come back if they perceive that the system is unsafe.
Brian Lehrer: Cassie in Wayne who was in the city riding the subway the other day. Cassie, you are on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.
Cassie: Hi, Brian. I'm a fan of your show, Brian, and it's surreal that I'm calling for this reason today because I commute to the city every day. Just maybe last week or 10 days ago, I was commuting from 14th-8th Avenue to Port Authority. A man got into my wagon and had the-- What do you call the knife? He had a knife and was brandishing it. Everybody else was seated in the wagon. I was the only one standing. I straightened my back because he started just-- [chuckles] Excuse me.
Brian Lehrer: Sorry.
Cassie: He came right in my direction and stood right in front of the door. There was just two people standing, him and me. Everybody else is sitting there quietly. The man just started brandishing the knife and said, "Nobody mess with me." Then put it back in, fortunately, while I, of course, was very nervous thinking, "Oh, God, who is going to help me? Help me, help me."
The next bus stop I just quietly got down, tried to look for police, but didn't find any. Then had a glass of water and just went my own way and calmed myself down. I kept thinking about when this happened what these people must have gone through and what are the things one is supposed to do when you see something that is just so unnerving. At the same time, down the road, I didn't know whether to really report this. It was-- What does one do--
Brian Lehrer: Is your question, what's the right thing for somebody to do right after being in an incident like that or near-incident? John, any advice if this ever happens to Cassie or any of our listeners again?
John Samuelsen: Yes, certainly if you're immediately in danger and you're on a bus call 911. If possible either in the bus system or the subway system tell the first uniform transit worker you see particularly the conductor on a train or a station agent or the bus operator, but I know that's not always possible. If certainly anybody who feels immediately at risk, you call 911,
Brian Lehrer: Cassie, thank you. Thank you for finally calling the show and stay safe out there. Call us again. Our broadcast engineer for this show is Juliana Fonda. Our listeners have heard me say her name in the credits a thousand times. She was on that first car of the end train yesterday. Somehow she had the emotional fortitude to call into the show yesterday to share her experience. I want to play you 25 seconds of this and then ask you a subway question coming out of it. Here's our engineer who courageously and stoically is back at work this morning. She's going to press this button to play the clip of herself.
Juliana Fonda: I was in the front of the train when all of these people started pouring into our car looking behind them, scared and shaking. They started pounding on the conductor's driver's window saying, "Drive, drive." He had a red light signal and he didn't understand, and people were yelling out there was fire and shooting. We heard popping behind us and people were pounding on the car trying to get in.
Brian Lehrer: In that moment, John-- My guest is John Samuelsen, Head of the Transport Workers Union for another five minutes then, Governor Cuomo. You can imagine the confusion on everyone's part, the passengers, the conductor, the driver of the train. I think Juliana clarified later she was in the first car of the train. The shooter, I believe, was in the second car of the train. It appeared later that it wasn't people trying to go from car to car, it was people from the back of her car moving toward the front of her car.
Another issue that has arisen that some people are calling in about is that the doors between the cars were locked. Is that a matter of policy?
John Samuelsen: Yes, it's a matter of policy for the New York City Transit Authority. It used to be different. In a case like this, it seems to me that that worked. The shooter was isolated from the riders in the front car and then the riders in the car behind him as well. Just thinking about it, the locking of the doors has its ups and has its downs. If you were in the second car where the shooting took place, you wouldn't be able to egress into another car, but on the flip side of that, the shooter himself wouldn't be able to make any mayhem in another car either.
Brian Lehrer: Rose in Flemington, you're on WNYC. Hi, Rose.
Rose: Good morning. I rode the subway for many years in New York City, and I have an unusual suggestion. It has been used by other organizations to use dogs that have come from pounds and retrain them to accompany an officer or someone from a transit authority as your detector. The animals are very, very savvy about weird vibrations and the smell of armaments. I think it's worth looking at. They've used them on looking for accelerants with arson cases and stuff. I think there's enough opportunity to stop euthanizing all these old dogs at the pound and recycle them into public safety.
Brian Lehrer: Transit police dogs. Let me take another suggestion and then invite you to respond to both. Joseph in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi Joseph.
Joseph: Hey, how are you doing there, Brian? Long-time listener. I called in regarding a long-time subway rider in the '60s and '70s and possibly in the '80s when they had the New York City transit police. There was a great presence there. They came through each individual car to oversee what the situation might be traveling to and from work. You always were encountering a police officer, come through the cars, and now the cars are locked, but I have a feeling that the New York City transit police were specifically trained for subway travel and any issues going on regarding that.
Maybe the NYPD was saying on 36th Street, for instance, they were staying upstairs and not down perhaps they're not trained specifically for transit. I would like to see the transit authority back as a separate unit.
Brian Lehrer: The transit police. Joseph, thank you very much. We had another caller saying that too, John. I think as a point of trivia, correct me if you think this is wrong they consolidated the three different police department units, transit police, housing police for NYCHA, and the general NYPD. They consolidated them all under the general NYPD in the Giuliani administration.
I believe the last transit police chief was William Bratton who was hired for that role by Mayor David Dinkins. Then Giuliani tapped him to be the General Police Chief. Is that your understanding of history? What do you think? What does the union think about whether it'd be better to go to a separately identified and the caller suggests a differently trained force?
John Samuelsen: Yes, I agree with your timeline there. I think that's all factual. I'm not a police expert, I'm not a policing expert. I could not imagine that the transit police bureau does not give some specific subway and New York City transit training to their offices that they deploy. I think more importantly than what banner that's under and whether it's a separate transit police force or NYPD transit police bureau, I think the most important thing is to do what the caller suggested which is what we used to see all the time with transit police officers actually making their way from car to car, through the train. They had an extremely high level of visibility in the transit system.
That's what we're looking for. I do believe that Mayor Adams and the MTA both agree with that, and they've agreed and they're in the midst of deploying more uniformed officers into the system to patrol the system in the way that it was patrolled when the transit police was a standalone entity.
Brian Lehrer: John Samuelsen, President of the Transport Workers Union. By the way, John, our engineer Juliana, who was on that train and who we played the clip of said afterwards that the conductor when people were banging on the window did come out and he was very good about following the proper signals. Props to your person who was directly involved on the scene from my colleague who's directly involved and on the scene. Thank you very much for coming on, stay safe down there.
John Lehrer: All right. Thanks very much for having me.
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