Brian Lehrer:

As you may remember, last July a peaceful protest in Dallas, after the police shooting deaths of Philando Castile and Alton Sterling, was rocked by gunfire. A former Army Reservist targeted and gunned down several officers escorting protesters. When the dust started to settle after the attack, Dallas Police Chief, David O. Brown, addressed the city and the Nation.

David O. Brown:

We're asking cops to do too much in this country. We are, we're just asking us to do too much. Every societal failure, we put it off on the cops to solve. Not enough mental health funding, let the cops handle it. Not enough drug addition funding, let's give it to the cops. Here in Dallas, we've got loose dog problem, let's have the cops chase loose dogs. Schools fail, give it to the cops. 70% of the African-American community is being raised by single women, let's give it to the cops to solve that as well. That's too much to ask. Policing was never meant to solve all those problems.

Brian Lehrer:

Chief Brown's response to the Dallas shootings moved the country, and highlighted the challenges of urban policing, and other social policy. The question now is, have we heard him? That's a question many may be asking, even more in wake of yesterday's mass shooting that left Congressman Steve Scalise in critical condition and others injured, and the one at a UPS facility in San Francisco.

 

Brian Lehrer:

Brown has since retired as Police Chief, and he has now written a book, Called To Rise: A Life in Faithful Service to the Community That Made Me. He's here with me now, to talk about that fateful day, the news of today, and his background and belief in community policing.

 

Brian Lehrer:

Welcome to WNYC, Chief Brown. Thank you very much for coming on with us.

David O. Brown:

Thank you very much, Brian, for having me.

Brian Lehrer:

How much do you feel, first of all, that you were heard in those 45 seconds that we replayed, that go so much attention at the time? Has anything changed?

David O. Brown:

I'm always hopeful that people hear what you're saying in crisis moments. How long it lasts, or sustains itself in the fast changing news cycles that we find ourselves in, often times caught up in just the sensational news of the day, is the big question for me. I'm not sure. I think there continues to be hope for policing, and communities, and for our country.

Brian Lehrer:

I think one of the things that the Dallas shooting has in common with yesterday's in Virginia is that it had political overtones. The police officers targeted in Dallas were targeted because they were police officers, and white police officers at that. The Republican Congressmen were targeted because they were Republican Congressmen. So, critics like New York Republican Congressman Chris Collins, yesterday, one of Donald Trump's biggest supporters, say "the hot political rhetoric causes this, and needs to be toned down." People said that about Black Lives Matter after the Dallas shooting, even though the protest that day was overwhelmingly peaceful, except for the lone gunman.

Brian Lehrer:

How much is that your position, how much is that the right conversation or the wrong conversation to have, in our opinion?

David O. Brown:

In my opinion, it's pretty much a human nature reaction, knee jerk when you have something like that happen. Another shooting that has become our new normal, another shooting. We have many others that doesn't get the same coverage, because it's just another shooting. I'm not so sure that the comments on the same day that it happens often can really fully describe some of the really, very complex issues that are related to gun violence, as it relates to know what the suspect's motivations were. Is there any mental illness, or drug addiction, or prior criminal behavior associated with this political rhetoric? Relationships with friends and family. We need to have a deeper dive into this suspect, to really pull out what this means in the conversation around our politics.

Brian Lehrer:

A very possibly, this was another mentally ill individual.

 

David O. Brown:

Yes.

Brian Lehrer:

And people's mental illness attaches to whatever is salient to them, and sometimes it's personal, sometimes it's employment related, sometimes it's political, or other things. The Dallas shooter, Michael Johnson, who gunned down the officers was considered, probably, mentally ill.

David O. Brown:

Yes.

Brian Lehrer:

You write in your book, and I'm queasy even asking you to talk about it, but you did write about it in your book, so I guess you want to.

David O. Brown:

Yes.

Brian Lehrer:

Your own traumatic experiences, dealing with mental health issues, and police, and your family. What would you like to say?

David O. Brown:

My son suffered from adult onset bipolar disease. Often, bipolar has many facets, so everyone with bipolar don't have violent tendencies, but some do, particularly untreated. My son was untreated, undiagnosed, we found this out after the fact. Particularly when you're an adult, sometimes family don't get that information from doctors. Really, the takeaway from yesterday's events with this shooter is likely mental health undertones. My son was killed, after killing two people. One, a police officer, in a suburban city here in Dallas, as a result of his mental illness, and self medicating with drugs, street drugs. There's no funding, there's no legitimate policy for broad mental health treatment.

David O. Brown:

It's embarrassing, still today, a mentally ill person, diagnosed, can still purchase a gun in this country in many states. That's really the scourge of many of these active shooter incidents in our country that's happening, that we never peel back layers of the causes, and get to what really is an underfunded mental health and drug treatment population in our country. We can't, particularly with the rising opioid crisis, we can't seem to find a way to find compromise in policy and funding.

Brian Lehrer:

My guest is former Dallas Police Chief, David Brown. His new book is Called To Rise: A Life in Faithful Service to the Community That Made Me. We can take your phone calls for Chief Brown at 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

Brian Lehrer:

Have you noticed that another association with the mass shooters, once their biographies become known, is that there's often a history of domestic violence? It seems to be the case, again, with this Virginia shooter. The person who, until the Dallas incident, was probably the best known police assassin in recent times, the guy who shot the police officers in New York City a few Decembers ago, he shot his girlfriend that same day, in Baltimore. Then, came to New York and shot those two officers.

Brian Lehrer:

Have you noticed that association, and have any thought about it?

David O. Brown:

Yes. Not only have I noticed, our scholarly researchers in this country have noticed. There's much research written about the intersections of domestic violence, mental health, drug addiction, and extreme violence, active shooter. I think that's where we need to really find more research around gun violence, which we don't fund. Again, that's my biggest frustration. We need to do more research, so we can peel back the layers, and actually have some solutions. You can't arrest your way out of poor mental health policies, you can't arrest your way out of underfunded drug treatment in this country. You can't arrest your way out of domestic violence issues, when you don't find the guts to find compromise around these very, very complex policies. We just can find a way to find any kind of agreement on.

Brian Lehrer:

On that complexity, we seemed to be heading in one direction in this country regarding criminal justice before the election, and that's being not just slowed, but reversed by President Trump, and Attorney General Jeff Sessions. We were headed toward rethinking mass incarceration, especially the arrest and imprisonment of so many young men of color for low-level, non-violent drug offenses. Now, Sessions is explicitly reversing course at the Federal level, citing the rising murder rate in some cities as a reason.

Brian Lehrer:

In your experience in law enforcement, is this necessary to the general public safety?

David O. Brown:

In my book, I refer to this quite candidly. This is how I started out, where AG Sessions is, when I started in law enforcement in 1983. I wanted to put them all in jail, let God sort them out. Every crime victim feels this way, when someone breaks into your house, or violently kills, or seriously injures a loved one, you want the person that did it put in jail.

David O. Brown:

But the reality is, what happens when you go down this road is ... I learned this over 33 years. We have math problem, when it comes to mass incarceration, we don't have enough jail bed space, nor the funding, to continue to grow our prison populations, to make it something that's reasonable. The math problem is, we arrest many more people than we can hold in jail. So, it's a revolving door, every criminal you put in jail, two or three gets released. It's laid in the lap of police officers to be in this revolving criminal justice system, without any hopes of reform in any kind of significant way, because we play this political football game with these ideas, where there is a stark reality and a practicality to this. You just can't arrest your way out of crime to make us safer.

David O. Brown:

Actually, when we were mass incarcerating people at the highest levels, in the '80s and '90s, the crime rates were the highest in this country. I was on the streets, and I was looking at it, and I was dealing with it, and being shot at, and having to chase the same crooks, until they got too old to run from us.

Brian Lehrer:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David O. Brown:

It's just not a practical thing, but I see how he's there, starting out. Well, I'm the crime victim, and I want somebody put in jail. It's just the reality is, downstream, that it just doesn't make us safer because we have a revolving door of criminals coming and out of the criminal justice system.

Brian Lehrer:

Was that why you wanted to be a police officer in the first place?

David O. Brown:

It is.

Brian Lehrer:

Because of the scourge of drug violence in your own neighborhood?

David O. Brown:

Yes. The advent of the crack cocaine epidemic caused me to leave the college I was attending my senior year, and put in an application to become a police officer. It's the reason why I went into policing, is to protect my own neighborhood. That was my first beat.

David O. Brown:

I found, through experience, that community policing makes us all safer, the cops and citizens. The people who put skin in the game in the community, and help us resolve some of the crime problems in their community, and be willing to participate more in the Democratic process at the local level, is our solution. It's how our system was set up. Reform comes from more participation in the local elections there, in your cities and counties.

Brian Lehrer:

What was that neighborhood you grew up in, and how is it now?

David O. Brown:

Oak Cliff. Oak Cliff, it's much better than it was in the '80s. We still struggle, it's a poor neighborhood, I grew up poor. I never forgot where I've come from, and I've always had an affinity for poor and impoverished neighborhoods, and the young people, particularly young people of color, who struggle to find a way out. I want to be that example for them, and try to provide some safety, but get them involved in the solutions rather than just identifying the problems and putting it at the feet of the police to resolve. That's just not a solution, policing was never meant to solve some of our very complex, entrenched societal failures.

Brian Lehrer:

Did you, as a young Black man considering a career in law enforcement have ambivalence, given the role, or a perception of the police, visa vie Black America?

David O. Brown:

My old man did, my father did. He discouraged me from doing it, he didn't get treated well, being born in 1940 and living through the Jim Crow's South, and segregated, separate but equal. He didn't see policing as a good profession to be in, and he discouraged me. But I was insistent on doing something, I just couldn't stand by and watch the crack cocaine epidemic destroy my own neighborhood, and not do anything about it but complain, and be frustrated. I wanted to do something about it, I wanted to be part of the solution, and I put 33 years in, as a cop. I'm proud of it, I'm proud of the fact that I made my neighborhood safer.

Brian Lehrer:

We'll continue in a minute, with your phone calls for former Dallas Police Chief, David Brown. His new book, Called To Rise: A Life in Faithful Service to the Community That Made Me. Stay with us.

Brian Lehrer:

Brian Lehrer, WNYC, with retired Dallas Police Chief, David Brown. His new book is Called To Rise. Ah, I misplaced your book, here. There it is. It's called, Called To Rise. Dallas Police Chief, retired, David Brown. There you go.

Brian Lehrer:

David in West Chester, you're on WNYC with Chief Brown. Hi, David.

David:

Hi. I have a question related to some of the bad publicity that the police have gotten, on the other hand, which is often attributed to having bad apples in the force.

David O. Brown:

Yeah.

David:

I was wondering if Chief Brown could comment on his experience coming up through the force over the years? He clearly must have seen bad apples who were not ushered out of the police force.

David:

Then, as Police Chief, what was he able to do about that? Was that an effective program, or did he run into resistance in trying to do that?

Brian Lehrer:

Thank you, David.

David O. Brown:

Good question. I fired over 60 officers during my tenure, and I bumped heads with the police culture, protected by the police union bosses, which are very strong. Some are pretty good, actually, in advocating for paying benefits, but others advocate to keep the culture the same. Yeah, you put your career on the line, trying to clean house with the one or two percent that shouldn't be a police officer. They can hijack the organization, hijack the profession, when you don't deal with them appropriately, and get them out of law enforcement.

David O. Brown:

The 98, 99 percent of cops, some of the bravest, most courageous people you ever want to see. They risk their lives for you. The July 7th incident is an example of police officers running toward bullets, here in Dallas, protecting people who were protesting, by providing a shield for them, with their bodies. Ultimately, making the sacrifice of giving their life, five officers gave their lives for protecting the citizens of Dallas. They're the guardians of this Democracy, here in our borders.

David O. Brown:

We just can't let the one or two percent paint with a broad brush, the profession. I appreciate you making a distinction, that there is a group that's not the majority, that paint us all with a bad brush.

Brian Lehrer:

So you're saying one or two percent, but you're also saying police culture, you just used that term. The spate of police involved killings that have headlines, and been so controversial, and people know the names of the victims. Michael Brown, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, Philando Castile, I could go one.

David O. Brown:

Yes.

Brian Lehrer:

To many people, it represents systemic police violence, that sees ... Or bias, I should say. Police bias, that sees dark skinned people as more of a threat than they really are. How do you put the one, two percent comment in context of what you call police culture, and this perception of a systemic bias that allows so many incidents to take place?

David O. Brown:

I guess, I have this different aspect on this. I've been Black a long time, and I'm blue. All my adult life, I've been a police officer. I've had to talk to widows, husbands and other spouses, whose daughters and sons gave the ultimate sacrifice to protect people. I've seen officers, White officers, go into their pockets, and help families of color when they didn't have to, I've seen such brave and courageous behavior of officers. I'm finding it difficult to make the contrast with what you see in a viral video, and what you never see.

David O. Brown:

Officers recently, here in the Dallas area, bought a World War II Veteran an air conditioning unit, when they saw that he was sitting on his porch outside. You just don't have balanced coverage of the heroism, bravery, courage, professionalism. While you have hyper vigilant, super coverage of viral videos, and that shapes our narratives.

David O. Brown:

Because I see them in balance, and I'm Black, and I grew up poor, I find I have a different perspective, I have a more balanced perspective. But, I do understand one life is one too many, when it's taken by a cop who shouldn't have taken that action. I completely understand the mistrust, but I just want to reconcile it with your viewers, and people here listening, that there are some brave people who protect people of color with their lives. That I know personally, that I know personally. It doesn't excuse any of it, I just have this balanced view of, I know that one or two percent is not the entirety of the profession.

Brian Lehrer:

Dorian in Harlem, you're on WNYC with former Dallas Police Chief David Brown. Hi, Dorian.

Dorian:

Hi, Brian. Nice to talk to you. Chief, I wanted to ask why, when you and so many other people, and Police Chiefs, and other positions like yours, talk about sensible gun regulation, you refer to the mental illness issue, why you think it's not getting political traction?

David O. Brown:

Well, one of the things is that we have representative government, so it's more of a reflection of us than it is of the politicians that we're so frustrated with, not getting anything done. It's local, the local democracy is much more powerful than going upstream to the Federal.

David O. Brown:

We just recently had an election here in Dallas, a local election. It's not dissimilar to local elections all across the country. Six percent turnout. So, our democracy is based on our participating, it's the history of our country. Significant change just has never happened until we engage and participate at the highest levels we possibly can. You can't expect to be 90%, 94% on the sidelines, waiting for the 6% to vote for representative government of our views. It's similar everywhere, 10% turnout for a local election. Everything's local, the counties, city. That's who hires the Police Chief, votes the DAs in, who selects the Grand Jury presentations, and how they're presented to indict, and how the reform happens. It's all city, county.

David O. Brown:

If we vote at the lowest levels, for city, county, state, and then we try to vote at higher levels for President, I think we're conflating the wrong ... It's inverted on what we should be doing, and expecting, as far as significant change is concerned. It's about us, not about them when it comes to the significant change we all know needs to happen in the way of criminal justice reform.

Brian Lehrer:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). So, on the issue of guns, which is part of the caller's question, one Congressman who was present at that shooting yesterday said, "if the incident had happened in his home state of Georgia, it would have ended more quickly because his aides are routinely armed. In Virginia, they weren't allowed to be." That raises the question of whether a universally armed society leads to more shootings, or fewer by prevention. Do you have an opinion?

David O. Brown:

Yes. We don't have research, all I have is an opinion. I have July 7th, last summer, when our five officers were killed, there were people who ... In Texas, you can open carry, had AR-15s slung, in the protest. They had vests, and gas masks, and fatigues, and they were in the protest, marching in the protest. It concerned us, but it's legal. They were protesting, about 20, 30 people. When the shots rang out, they ran, away from the bullets. Our cops ran toward the bullets.

David O. Brown:

The argument is a good guy with a gun, and more good guys with guns will make us safer when the bad guys with the guns use it. I just hadn't seen that ever play out in reality. Police officers do something that none of us want to do, none of us want to run toward bullets and give our lives for somebody else. Police officers are sworn to do it. I just haven't seen that make us safer, but we don't have the research because we don't fund research for gun violence in this country. We just don't see that as something important to us, and it's representative government so it's speaks to us, about us, more than it does with the frustration we have with our politicians. They are elected by us, they represent our views, supposedly.

Brian Lehrer:

We have under a minute left, but I want to get a media thought from you. I see you're currently an ABC Contributor now, and one of the reasons you say you took that position is because you don't like how the media has covered matters of policing.

David O. Brown:

Right.

Brian Lehrer:

Give me some tips? What can we do better, as an institution?

David O. Brown:

Find the bravery and courage. If it bleeds, it leads is not always the best ways to get ratings. People love to see bravery and courage on display. There are many examples of that. Find it, and put it in a video loop like we do with the bad shootings that we see.

Brian Lehrer:

We certainly acknowledge the bravery of those Capital police officers yesterday, right?

David O. Brown:

Yes.

Brian Lehrer:

Wounded, pursuing.

David O. Brown:

Yes.

Brian Lehrer:

The one who was wounded continued to pursue the shooter, even after he was wounded.

David O. Brown:

Yeah. Video loop it, play it over and over again. You'll save perceptions with it.

Brian Lehrer:

Chief David Brown has a new book, Called To Rise: A Life in Faithful Service to the Community That Made Me. Thank you so much.

David O. Brown:

Thank you, Brian. 

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