NYC's Orthodox Jewish Communities Protest COVID-Related Closures

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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Governor Cuomo is shutting down Newyork's hotspots to varying degrees, depending on how high. Some Hasidic areas of Brooklyn and Orange and Rockland County are the hottest of the hot. A protest broke out last night in Borough Park to oppose the new rules. A similar thing is happening in Israel.

This is from the Associated Press yesterday, "After a revered ultra-Orthodox rabbi died this week from COVID-19, Israeli police thought they had worked out an arrangement with his followers to allow a small, dignified funeral that would conform with public health guidelines under the current coronavirus lockdown, but when it was time to bury the rabbi on Monday, thousands of people showed up ignoring social distancing rules and clashing with police who tried to disperse the mass gathering. Such violations of lockdown rules by segments of the ultra-Orthodox population have angered a broader Israeli public that is largely complying with the restrictions imposed to halt a raging coronavirus outbreak." From the Associated Press yesterday, as reported from Telaviv. Back to New York. Here's Governor Cuomo speaking yesterday.

Governor Cuomo: The virus spreads in mass gatherings. We know this from our own experience, from what we've seen and from what every expert tells us, right? The outbreaks, which is when the virus is spreading out of control, it starts with a mass gathering, and then it expands from there, especially indoors.

Brian Lehrer: The governor did specify that religious gatherings are not exempt.

Governor Cuomo: Obviously the new rules are most impactful on houses of worship because this virus is not coming from non-essential businesses. That's not what this is about. It may be spread by non-essential businesses. The virus is not starting in schools. It may be spread by schools. This is about mass gatherings. This is about mass gatherings. One of the prime places of mass gatherings are houses of worship. I understand it's a sensitive topic, but that is the truth.

Brian Lehrer: The governor yesterday. Officially the new rules take effect Friday, though Mayor de Blasio wants people to start following them today. The mayor and the governor are in their usual alpha male one-upsmanship dance, but let's not forget. Basically, they are on the same public health page here. One difference, the mayor wanted to establish hot zones by zip code, which is a blunter instrument, but everyone knows what zip code they're in.

The governor has established these different color-coded zones based on more localized health data to spare any specific small area more of a lockdown than it needs. You'll have to look at a map or get that information some other way what zone your exact block is in. Now, in red zones, all schools and all businesses deemed non-essential will have to close. Things like food stores and pharmacies can stay open. Restaurants will be limited to take-out, no outdoor dining.

There will now be limits on indoor gatherings as the governor indicated. Indoor gatherings are seen as the biggest source of infectious spread, they will be limited to 10 people. As the governor indicated in the clip, indoor religious gatherings are not exempt from that. In orange zones, a little less hot than red ones, businesses considered high-risk like gyms and personal care services will have to close, but not all other businesses. Restaurants can have outdoor dining at tables of up to four people in orange zones. In yellows zones with even less concentration of disease, there will be even fewer restrictions; schools can open, but the people there have to get weekly virus testing and slightly larger indoor gatherings will be permitted up to 50% capacity to a maximum of 25 people.

Again, something similar is already happening in Israel. Here's a story that ran in the Jewish newspaper, The Forward, on September 24th. It says, "Israelis are facing a much more restrictive general lockdown, including the closure of synagogues to prevent the record spread of the coronavirus. The stricter measures approved early Thursday," that was around September 24th, Thursday, "would go into effect hours before Yom Kippur, which starts on Sunday evening.

On Wednesday, 7,000 new cases were recorded for the second consecutive day. Some 12.9% of the over 50,000 tests conducted were positive. Under the new regulations," they said, "which are set to last for at least two weeks, nearly all businesses will be closed except for those that sell food, pharmacies, and others that provide essential services," Sound familiar? "according to a joint statement from the health ministry and the prime minister's office."

I know that the prime minister's office, so this is from Netanyahu himself and the article continues. "People will be restricted from venturing more than 0.6 miles from their homes, except for approved reasons which include individual exercise and the transfer of minor children from one parent to the other, in the cases of divorce. Synagogues will be closed except for Yom Kippur when 25 worshipers are permitted to gather with social distancing. Outdoor worship and demonstrations can include 20 people. Public transportation will be severely reduced." From that article in The Foward on September 24th.

With all of that as backdrop, let's talk to two reporters now about what's happening in New York and take your calls. Ari Feldman is a reporter for The Forward. Ginia Bellafante writes The New York Times column called The Big City. Her column Monday was called "When COVID Flared Again in Orthodox Jewish New York". Ginia, welcome back.

Ginia Bellafante: Hi, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Ari, first time on the show. Welcome to WNYC.

Ari Feldman: Thank you so much.

Brian Lehrer: Ginia, first the rules themselves and the color-coded zones that the governor is imposing rather than by zip codes, I just went over the basics. From a practical standpoint, how will any person or business know what zone they're in?

Ginia: The zip codes are certainly clear although we don't really travel around the city in zip codes. We go from neighborhood to neighborhood. At the level of logic, I think the Cuomo plan makes more sense but again, with all of this, there is just really not the messaging that you would want. I think the mayor should be making the actual block-by-block effect far, far clear because people are certainly confused and just optically, it looks like military targets. When you look at the map, the color-coding is so much more pointed toward the communities where he really wants to tamp down the rule-breaking. It's problematic, but I understand where he's coming from.

Brian Lehrer: Ari, before we get into any of the politics of it, what can you report about the understanding of the new restrictions and how they will be implemented and enforced in the areas that you're reporting on?

Ari: I think Ginia identified also an issue that will make enforcement difficult. Cuomo has made a big show of belittling the city's own enforcement action saying that the city is not enforcing the existing rules enough, something that Bill de Blasio has pushed back on, but there's a lot of daylights here for people to walk around, maybe without masks and for a police officer to come up and say, "You're in the orange zone. You're in a red zone. You are not allowed to be operating this way." That might be true for businesses as well. They may not just know. That creates enforcement difficulties, I think.

Brian Lehrer: Ginia the question of the schools. You know what? Let me put out the invitation to our listeners to call in because this is definitely a call-in segment here. Listeners, help us report this story. If you are in a hot zone, call in and tell us what's going on, where you are. If you have a political opinion about this, call in and tell us what you think should happen. What's happening in your part of Brooklyn, in your part of Queens, in your part of Rockland, in your part of Orange? We're focusing mostly on New York City, but it doesn't have to be that. It can be the other hot zones too that the governor is imposing these restrictions on. 646-435-7280. 646-435-7280.

Ginia, the schools. The mayor was on this show just on last Friday and defended keeping public schools open everywhere, even with the spike taking place because there were very few cases and well under 3% test positivity, the threshold in any public school, but now they're going by neighborhood and the schools in the neighborhoods are being shut down regardless. Why if the governor's color codes are about precision and sparing those who aren't as at risk, why the blunter instrument of closing schools without internal cases?

Ginia: I think that really it purely boils down to politics. You cannot simply go in and close the yeshivas is what-- We saw what happened last night. There would be just fury. It's in effect, these public schools that are being shut down are a casualty of the political sensitivity around all of this. I think that what a lot of, perhaps secular people don't understand, and I'm a parent-- undone as we all are by the situation with schooling, having children at home and homeschooling in the ultra-Orthodox community, the idea of the religious education, studying the Torah in these yeshivas, it's not just to keep your children occupied to learn.

They feel that their single most important obligation as a parent is religious education so they are failing in their mission, in a phase to not have children in school. It's just explosive territory and the public schools are going to be a casualty in all this [crosstalk] unless the politicians are willing to say, "That's it. This is where the outbreaks are happening. We're just closing down yeshivas," I don't see that happening.

Brian Lehrer: Ari from the standpoint of law enforcement, which you mentioned before, what do you see as the role of the police? We know that in the spring, members of the NYPD got caught on tape engaging in police brutality against several Black and Latino people who were not complying with social distancing. Then the mayor was asked to use public health officials and offer masks and reminders and not use the heavy hand of the police.

Now, Cuomo was talking about the police again, but more focused on what we might call the organized resistance in some Hasidic circles, but already Gothamist has a story about the police standing by and not doing anything at a Hasidic dance party with the mass gathering in Brooklyn on Monday night, not breaking it up. How do you see the role of the police now on paper from the governor and in reality on the ground?

Ari: It's always been a very complicated relationship between police and Hasidic Jews in the neighborhoods we're talking about Borough Park, Crown Heights, which is not facing a lockdown, the areas where there's large Hasidic communities. There's lots of liaisons between those police departments and the community and a lot of communication that goes on. Certainly, there was a big dance party in Crown Heights. The police did not intervene. The police told me that they actually set up barriers in the streets for this large dance party that was happening for the High Holidays. We're in last week of the High Holidays right now.

Last night as well at these protests in Borough Park, where there were hundreds of people on the street and there were reports of multiple assaults and there was minimal mask-wearing based on videos that I saw. Police said they made no arrests because there was no reason to make arrest. I think the police are making-- I don't know. It's hard to know, but the police clearly are making the decision that they're not going to focus as much on communities that may be bucking health rules for religious reasons.

The extent to which police need to enforce these rules on religious communities has been frankly unclear from the beginning of the pandemic, and police have told our reporters, police that are on the [unintelligible 00:14:12] on the corner in these neighborhoods, they've said they've received orders not to enforce the rules as stringently when it comes to religious observance.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. I mentioned the--

Ginia: Can I say one thing?

Brian Lehrer: Ginia, did you want to say something to that?

Ginia: I did. On Saturday, the governor said he would be enforcing fines of up to $10,000 a day, I can't remember, on localities who would not enforce. It's unclear when that would kick in and what the NYPD is going to have to do then if he's going to hold them accountable to these penalties.

Brian Lehrer: Ari, I mentioned the parallel events taking place in Israel. A new COVID spike after things had been good and Netanyahu locked down nationally with rules that sound very similar to what's coming to New York's hot zones. Protests even including violence against the police in some cases in Israel. How similar or different do you see the COVID public health threats and religious politics in Israel and New York right now?

Ari: There's some similarities. Clearly, the situation is much more dire in Israel. There was just a report that a doctor in Israel released data suggesting that the morbidity rate is extremely high in the Orthodox community in Israel, as high as 36%. We're not seeing a morbidity rate of anywhere close to that anywhere in the New York region right now but there are some cultural similarities between these two communities as well as some differences.

There's a strong anti-establishment, anti-government feeling in the community's skepticism of overreach particularly when it comes to government health department workers, but I think there's also some differences in that the community in Israel, especially in Jerusalem, is much more likely to take to the streets and has been historically much more likely to take to the streets, to protest what they've deemed government overreach into their lives. That doesn't happen as much in the community in the New York City region, particularly in Brooklyn.

I'd say that that probably has to do with the communities leaders really focusing on keeping their own political relationships with city-state political leaders. When the community is outspoken and is out in the street, it makes their jobs a little more difficult usually to negotiate on behalf of their community. I think that this protest last night in Borough Park, it's a bit of a deviation from the norm and I think it really speaks to how frustrated the community feels by not just the stringent rules, but the feeling the community that the rules are what Hasidic and Orthodox lawmakers from Borough Park in that area have called a bait and switch.

They felt that Cuomo has not been upfront with them about the extent to which their communities would face lockdowns. Cuomo met with Orthodox leaders yesterday. People who were in that meeting said that-- he said that religious institutions at the most grave restrictions would be able to operate at 50% capacity. Now the new rules have come down and it's at 10 people maximum or 25% capacity and that's a very different rule and they feel that they've been blindsided as well. That's driving a lot of the anger.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Leah in Far Rockaway. You're on WNYC. Leah, thank you so much for calling.

Leah: No problem. Good morning, Brian, and good morning to your two guests as well. As a member of the Orthodox community in Far Rockaway, as a pregnant woman who clearly has a higher risk of COVID, God forbid, I am critical of some of the things that our community has done and I will be the first one to say it. I've been that "Karen" who's told people to put on a mask in certain settings. I've been there. I've done that.

However, I don't think it's fair to call the Orthodox community as a whole when the Agudah, which is a religious organization based in Brooklyn. The Orthodox Union, which is an international organization based here in New York. Yeshiva University, many big prominent Orthodox institutions, and big rabbis have come out and told people to wear masks. They've told people when they're praying in a prayer quorum, a minyan, that they should do it in a socially-distance and masked fashion. They had a whole bunch of restrictions for people to hear the shofar, which is our ceremonial horn that we blow during certain times of the year.

There has been big rabbis and big Orthodox institutions that have come out to tell people to be safe and people have listened. There have been people who have listened. Unfortunately when politics gets mixed in, when we have the "great orange" who sits in the White House, get out and tell people not to wear masks, there's a political element there, unfortunately, but it isn't an inherently religious issue for Governor Cuomo to say that only a minyan, a quorum of 10 men, to pray, especially during right now sukkot, which is our-- I think in English, it's called the Feast of Tabernacle, but I could be wrong. It could be Pentecost. I don't recall the English terms. [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: For people who don't know, it's roughly the harvest festival, right?

Leah: Exactly, yes. [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Every culture has a harvest festival. This is the Jewish harvest festival.

Leah: Exactly. Right now, if you go into any of these neighborhoods that are designated as hotspots in my own backyard, you'll see what looks like little cups everywhere. That's our holiday that's happening right now. This "dance party" that was happening in Crown Heights was not a dance party for the sake of having a [unintelligible 00:20:06] like you do in some places. It was simply a space to show [unintelligible 00:20:10], which is a time when during the time of the temple in Jerusalem before it was destroyed, where there was a big celebration and there were libations of the holiday. There were water libations being brought. It was a very big celebratory time. I do take issue with the fact that there were people there not wearing masks, but there were also plenty of people there that were wearing masks. There were rabbis in the community telling people not to gather.

Ginia: Leah, may I ask you a question--

Leah: To say there's one group of [unintelligible 00:20:43] or there's one group of Hasidic Jews or there's one group of yeshivas Jews among Orthodox Jews is a problem and that, "Oh, the yeshivas are the reason public schools are closing," or the shuls, the synagogues, are the reason that everything is closing. It's tricky language especially when we look at what happened over the summer, where there were a ton of white privileged people in Chelsea or the Upper East side of the upper West side, not following rules.

Brian Lehrer: Ginia, did you want to ask Leah a question?

Ginia: Yes, I did, I did, I did because the governor and mayor have both been saying all along that they are meeting with religious leaders. We know that it's important for-

Leah: Absolutely.

Ginia: -religious leaders to bring the message home because people in the community are going to listen to these religious leaders. Given all that-

Leah: 100%.

Ginia: -what do you think-- That they're going to hold much more sway than the politicians. Why do we think there is-- [crosstalk]

Leah: To answer your question. There are big rabbinic leaders in the Hasidic community. There are some who have come out and told their [unintelligible 00:21:47], their students, their followers as it were, they've told their followers to mask. They told them to pray in a socially distant, appropriate, healthy quorum. There are people who have met with the governor, who have done these things. However, there are still some followers of these big rabbis who will say, "No, no, the president who makes sure that I get what I need in terms of government assistance or whatever it is, that person, this strong masculine man, he's telling me that I don't have to listen." It's very hard to deal with that counter-message.

Brian Lehrer: Leah, thank you for your call and your complex analysis. We really appreciate it. Ari, to the point that that call ended on. I'm struck by the story from Israel about the mass funeral gathering in defiance of the government's rules at the funeral of a beloved rabbi who died of COVID. Why wouldn't people's first priority to be to protect more beloved members of the community from getting killed in this way?

Ari: I think it's important to understand that the value system of what is commonly called the ultra-Orthodox community, the Hasidic community, is really based around honoring people's lives when it comes to funerals. Funerals are very important to this community. They're religious obligations to celebrate the life of someone. It's very hard for people who live more in the secular world, and it's even hard for people who live in other Orthodox communities that are termed more modern Orthodox. They have more engagement with the secular world. They do not wear the same dress uniform that you'll see in Hasidic communities.

They feel frustrated with that kind of behavior as well because I think as you point out, the irony is very clear that this rabbi died of COVID and the risks of contracting COVID for his mourners is very high but throughout this pandemic, we've seen Hasidic communities make efforts to have funeral processions. We've seen that in Williamsburg. We've seen that in Borough Park and it was that funeral procession in March in Williamsburg that touched off this whole clash between Mayor de Blasio and the Hasidic community when the mourning crowd got way out of hand, and there was this huge crowd for a rabbi who had passed away from COVID. This keeps happening again and again.

Brian Lehrer: Roman in Midwood. You're on WNYC with Ginia Bellafante from The New York Times and Ari Feldman from The Forward. Hi, Roman.

Roman: Hi, how are you? Really nice to get through. The sequence I want to make is that, first of all, my wife's a teacher in [unintelligible 00:24:38]. We saw the spike in March. Our school got really affected. We're, of course, naturally petrified of a repeat going now and feel that de Blasio and Cuomo are, unfortunately, are not doing enough to shut down the schools, are doing fast enough. The supplies are coming in late.

The second part of it is I'm part of the Russian [unintelligible 00:24:58] community here in Midwood. The Russian immigrants, unfortunately, are flouting rules as well. We see in Sheepshead Bay, Coney Island, Midwood, our whole community, restaurants are open. People were dining inside back in April when it was the height of the pandemic. You go to stores, the supermarkets, the masks are not on. I don't know-- I think, in part, it's probably the political leanings but, in part, I think there hasn't been any outreach at least that I've seen and I ride my bike and walk around the community all the time in terms of Russian-speaking outreach to say, "Put on a mask. Be careful," et cetera, et cetera.

Brian Lehrer: The outreach is lacking in the way that it needs to be coming is your observation. Roman, thank you very much. Ari, the headline of your article the other day was that Orthodox Jews worry that the COVID lockdown will backfire. Who are the worriers in that headline rather than the backfires because the headline suggests the Orthodox broad-brush headline do want to stamp out the virus, but Cuomo and de Blasio aren't helping,

Ari: Right. It is actually that I was just thinking as this news was coming in of the protests last night. I spoke to the publisher of AMI Magazine, which is the premier Orthodox English language monthly. He told me straight out, "I think there's going to be civil disobedience," and he was right because there's frustration here and I spoke to some community leaders, some more public-facing secular English speaking world facing leaders. They're concerned that frustration at the city for ineffective outreach, the kind that Roman just identified plus a feeling of being singled out is going, and I guess already has, created the conditions for a backlash.

The city admitted last week in questioning in front of the city council, one of the health department official said that there were less than half a dozen Yiddish speaking contact tracers. This is for tens of thousands of Hasidic Jews in Brooklyn for whom they either they speak minimal English or in many cases, they don't speak English at all. Yiddish is their only language and Agudah, the umbrella organization for primarily the Hasidic community and more observant Orthodox Jews that Leah was referencing. They really blasted the city on that and they also suggested that the contact tracers you have reached out to the community have been culturally insensitive and have given the community a sense that they're being invasive, wanting to know their business.

This is a community that is generally private. When I walk around Hasidic neighborhoods and try to do man-on-the-street interviews, women-on-the-street interviews, in general, they don't want to speak or they don't want to have their names attached to their comments. They don't want their business known and they feel that they've been intruded upon with this contact tracing program. They're making the argument that the city and the state have not done enough to really prepare the community for the severity of these lockdowns.

Brian Lehrer: Of course, there is diversity of attitude toward this issue and of behavior in the communities. Our reporter Beth Fertig happened to tweet this yesterday, "Forty-six NYPD officers died of COVID-19 and are being memorialized today." Yesterday. Then she quotes a line from the Times, "'Patrick J. Lynch, the president of the Police Benevolent Association, spoke at a Republican rally on Saturday on Staten Island where organizers did not require masks.'" So huh? Then Beth informs us just now, "On Monday on Myrtle Avenue in Brooklyn near South Williamsburg, I saw a lot of ultra-Orthodox families out for sukkot and they were all wearing blue masks," so the protesters don't speak for them all. Let's take another phone call. Brian in Williamsburg. You're on WNYC. Hello.

Brian: Hello.

Brian Lehrer: Hi. You're on the air.

Brian: Hey, how are you? Yes, I've been a documentary photographer in Williamsburg for at least 25 years and I've done multiple tours of that South Williamsburg and I can confirm there's just not enough going on with outreach to that community and the rabbis, it's just not going to work. You're dealing with antique created law. I've been in delis where no one even wants to respect social distancing. I don't care about your mask, but something else needs to go on with that community. I've only seen one testing site.

Brian Lehrer: Is your understanding of-- Brian for you as a documentarian, is it your understanding that the people defying the social distancing as well as the mask-wearing don't believe the science, believe that they are putting themselves and others at risk, but this is what God wants them to do? How would you describe-- Go ahead.

Brian: First of all, I'm a believer in health and diet, like first and primer, but second-- Last night I passed by a huge New Year's Eve party. I liked this stuff. I liked to photograph it. There must've been 100, 200 people in there. I didn't see one sign that said, "Hey, if you want to wear a mask, do something." You had kids, you had senior citizens. There just doesn't seem to be a respect factor going on. There doesn't seem to be-- [unintelligible 00:30:34] anybody there was trying to instill any type of logic.

Brian Lehrer: Why? Assuming they're not so sequestered from what's going on in the world that they don't know that the public health officials are saying, "Mass social distancing, the virus is real. The virus can be deadly." What's the motivation behind what you observed as far as you could tell?

Brian: Definitely community outreach. They wanted to put Williamsburg completely on lockdown because of what's basically going on there. The Northside and Southside have been very relatively low as of right now. Blasting entire zip code is not good, but there needs to be something going on with more community outreach to that area and just convincing them like, "Hey, you need to respect just certain decisions." What you do in your personal life is one thing, but I don't really wear a mask. I can't because of medication, but if someone takes 10 steps away from me, I'm okay with it. I understand personal space.

Brian Lehrer: Brian, thank you very much. Ginia, last word. If we assume that Cuomo and de Blasio are earnestly on the side of public health, but everybody says they're blowing it. How do you see them doing from your point of view in terms of the smartest approach here and what could they do better?

Ginia: I think they have to really do messaging and outreach that is culturally sensitive. On the flip side of no Yiddish contact tracers, was that in certain neighborhoods in Queens where Yiddish is not the predominant language, they were blasting messages in Yiddish where the predominant language was Russian and Hebrew. The idea to look at this world as monolithic is bad and it's responsible for a lot of the animosity. They have to fix the style of the messaging. The core thing that I was hearing in the community-- I spent a lot of time in Williamsburg last week and spoke to Dr. Zucker, the state health commissioner. Everyone says, "There's really a belief--" It's not necessarily defiance across the board. People were not wearing masks.

There is a belief that there is herd immunity in the community. They suffered tremendously in the spring and now they're all fine. The message that that is not true must be hit hard. They have to get that message through people that they are still in a very precarious position and that the masks are going to save their own lives. Right now the messaging is you have to do this for everyone else. No, they have to wear masks and social distance for their own health.

Brian Lehrer: Because of that answer, let me extend for one follow-up to you, Ari. If this is where the spikes are, then presumably people are getting sick and a percentage of people are getting sick enough to feel really bad and some maybe are dying. Wouldn't it be self-correcting or why wouldn't it be self-correcting in that respect when people see this in their own community?

Ari: My sense from the community is that they are not seeing as many people getting very ill as there were at the very beginning of the pandemic. The sense of urgency isn't as strong as it was in March when there was a very quick spike in the community that spread very quickly. There are large families that live in dense neighborhoods, whether it's Rockland or Orange or Brooklyn, the virus spread very quickly. There were a lot of deaths in the community. We don't have an accurate count, but the community reported a lot of deaths.

The hospitalizations are slowly ticking up, especially at a hospital like Maimonides which is in Borough Park, but the sense in the community is that the urgency-- It's not quite as dire in terms of the number of hospitalizations. There's frankly a lot of skepticism of the numbers themselves in the community. There's frustration that policy that's affecting the very important religious lives of these communities and also the lives of business owners in these communities and workers is being driven by a small number of tests.

The city is doing maybe hundreds of tests, maybe sometimes thousands over the period of a week or so in these areas. The community feels that the people who get tested are self-selected. They're more likely to be positive if they're getting tested. There's a feeling that the health department at the state of the city has not been forthcoming with the messaging, the data about the tests that would make them feel confident that this is a real uptick. Our community is really in trouble as opposed to some issue with the numbers that would suggest that that's not the case.

Brian Lehrer: Sure enough. Our Gwynne Hogan tweets, "At Gravesend Park, workers at the city testing site say only 85 people have been tested in the week it's been open. 'They’re not getting tested,' one person told me, despite the park being bustling with hundreds of people in that time." I guess we will see if more serious cases and deaths develop in the community if it does become self-correcting in a short period of time. We thank Ari Feldman from The Forward. Ginia Bellafante from the New York Times. Thank you both so much.

Ginia: Thank you.

Ari: Thank you for having us.

 

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