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Diane Arbus: A Rare Interview

Diane Arbus in Central Park, 1969 by Garry Winograd (printed 1983)

Diane Arbus, whose indelible black and white portraits of people— strippers, circus performers, a Jewish giant towering over his parents, random New Yorkers she encountered in the street, babies (including broadcast journalist Anderson Cooper), nudists, the LGBTQIA+ community—have become classics of documentary photography, would have turned 100 this year.

Fifty-two years after her death, WNYC Archives revisits a rare interview with Arbus, who discusses her thoughts about women’s liberation, how she chooses her subjects, sex, and being a mother to two young daughters. Very few recordings of Arbus exist.

Arthur Lubow, author of the comprehensive biography, Diane Arbus: Portrait of a Photographer, wrote in an email that “Arbus's voice—both her way of putting things and her whispery girlish sound—was unique. And her vision as expressed in words was totally consistent with the way she depicted the world in photographs. I have heard only two of her recorded talks. The discovery of a third is a real find."

Arbus’s two daughters, Amy, now 69 and a photographer, and Doon, 78, a writer who manages her mother’s estate, did not respond to requests for comment.

Diane Arbus was one of 80 women interviewed for Viewpoints of Women hosted by WNYC Program Director Richard Pyatt in January or February 1971. To date, the episode with Arbus is the only one that exists from this series that included women discussing their work and their roles in society.

Arbus’s conversation was recorded at WNYC’s 25th-floor studios in Manhattan’s Municipal Building, a short bike ride from her apartment at Westbeth Artists Housing in the West Village.

At that time, Arbus was struggling to pay her rent, recovering from two bouts of hepatitis, and living with depression. Four months after the WNYC program was broadcast in March, she would take her own life at the age of 48 in July 1971.

Pyatt calls Arbus “adventurous and mysterious.” Sounding shy and perhaps bored with the same questions women are still being asked today, Arbus quietly holds her own against Pyatt’s sonorous voice and probing questions.

Diane Arbus: Of course, I think that men have problems, too.

Richard Pyatt: That's a known fact.

Diane Arbus: You wanna tell me your problems?

In a dialogue filled with stops, starts, and silences, Pyatt, then 42, called journalism “a man's world, that politics is a man's world, that this is a man's world, and photography has more or less been considered a man's world. He asks, “Is that a part of the environment that you've become accustomed to, Diane Arbus?”

Arbus’s mentor was Lisette Model, renowned for her street photography and portraiture, who later went on to teach at The New School for Social Research. Arbus was her most famous pupil. There has never been a shortage of great women photographers: Julia Margaret Cameron, Berenice Abbott, Dorothea Lange, Lee Miller, Margaret Bourke-White, Mary Ellen Mark. Helen Levitt, Lisa Larsen, Imogen Cunningham, Ilse Bing, Florestine Perrault Collins, Lola Álvarez Bravo, Tina Modotti, and others who hadn’t received the same recognition or assignments as their male counterparts back then, and even today.

Arbus quietly rebuffs Pyatt. “There have always been women photographers … very good ones … ” she says.

In this 25-minute interview, Pyatt attempts to pin down Arbus’s groundbreaking raw style and asks if there was a particular type of subject or story that she seeks. Her most well-known images include a grimacing boy clutching a toy hand grenade, twin sisters dressed in matching black dresses and white collars, and a man in hair rollers holding a cigarette.

Richard Pyatt: … You just walk down the street and take pictures of anything?

Diane Arbus: No, not usually, although sometimes I do that. Now I'm very interested in the differences … Some of these differences are … Everybody's got two eyes, a nose, and a mouth. But there are these incredible variations on that theme, also on the nature of the person, what they choose in the way of what they wear, what their role is in—you know, what their work is, how rich and how poor, what their sort of social, intellectual sort of general position is,certain attitudes or something like that, or a lot of this is visual.

Richard Pyatt: So that before you actually take a picture, a lot of this introspective analysis goes on in your mind.

Diane Arbus: I don't think it's analysis, but it's an encounter, right? Sometimes I don't talk to the person at all. But there's some kind of element of … this other experience, this other sort of world, and this other sort of milieu … I like people who are not like me. I like even people I don't like.

This was 1971. A woman could not have a credit card in her own name and was not permitted to fight on the front lines in the military. A woman could be fired if she became pregnant. Spousal rape wasn’t outlawed until 1993. A woman couldn’t sue for sexual harassment and could be charged more for health insurance than men. Women were paid, on average, 57 cents to every dollar that men earned.

Richard Pyatt: What would you consider to be the greatest problem in being a woman today?

Diane Arbus: Today.

Richard Pyatt: Or what would you consider to be the most enjoyable thing about being a woman?

Diane Arbus: I think sexual freedom is very enjoyable … The woman part of it is sort of terrific fun 'cause women have a lot more power now sexually in the first place, but that sort of spills over … it's important. Just the sense that women can now experience the same variety as men have traditionally experienced … I think sex is very educational.

Richard Pyatt: That sex is educational and that women are absolutely different from men. Their chromosomes in every cell of their body—

Diane Arbus: Oh, really?

Richard Pyatt: —is absolutely different from that of the male, which makes them an entirely unique and different animal.

Diane Arbus: I've always been interested in the differences between women and men…For instance, there are women photographers and men photographers of women's pictures. I don't think … it's a theme you should hammer on too long.

Richard Pyatt: We have about a moment, and in that moment, let me ask you a question regarding your work. Does your attitude change when you photograph a man, uh, a male or, or a female? Or you’re not influenced by that at all?

Diane Arbus: Oh, I think I'm influenced by everything … I think it's very deep in you.

Her work, biographer Patricia Bosworth wrote in her book Diane Arbus: A Biography, was “both damned for its voyeurism and praised for its compassion … She deliberately explored the visual ambiguity of people on the fringe and at the center of society.”

Finally, in 2018, Diane Arbus’s obituary appeared in the new Overlooked section of The New York Times. Written by James Estrin, he concludes that “After decades of intense examination of her work and life, perhaps there is room to understand Arbus as a woman driven by artistic vision as well as personal compulsion, and her photographs as documents of empathy as well as exploitation.”

Much of what Arbus divulges in the WNYC interview isn’t a secret. Her life and work have been analyzed and psychoanalyzed many times over. Her provocative work influences photographers today, including the intensely personal photographs of Nan Goldin and Cindy Sherman.

Arbus’s photographs continue to fascinate. An Instagram account of her work tops 83,000 followers. Diane Arbus: 10 Years opens at the Susquehanna Art Museum in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, on September 30 and runs through January 21, 2024. Diane Arbus: Constellation honors the centenary of her birth with the largest exhibit of her work—454 images including rare and unseen photographs— on view at the Luma Foundation in Arles, France through April 30, 2024.

“A photograph is a secret about a secret,” Arbus wrote in Artforum magazine in 1971. “The more it tells you the less you know.”

Diane Arbus' A young man in curlers at home on West 20th Street, N.Y.C. 1966

_______________________________________

Special thanks to the Duke University Special Collections for making this audio available to us.

Speaker 1: We're on a special broadcast. Here now is WNYC program manager, Richard Pyatt.

Richard Pyatt: Welcome to another program in our comprehensive series, Viewpoints of Women, a voiced anthology which attempts to present the diverse viewpoints of women in today's society. Throughout the series, you'll be hearing women of every persuasion, of every point of view, from every strata of society, the career woman, the housewife, the educator, the factory worker, the stenographer, the corporation president, the advocate of women's lib, and even perhaps a modern Victorian woman, if we can call anyone that these days.

With us today, however, is photographer Diane Arbus. Now, Diane Arbus has been classified as one of the 100 women in touch with our time according to the January issue of Bazaar Magazine, singular voices, singular accomplishments. And in the paragraph that, uh, accompanies Diane Arbus's picture, it says this and we'll read it because it's as good an introduction as any. "Adventurous, mysterious recorder of humanity, wry image maker, provider of authentic glimpses, visual embellishments, skillful practitioner whose well-informed or well-formed art and well-informed too, according to some of the pictures I've seen, has a lovely inventiveness."

Well, um, we are hearing lately and we've been hearing for a long time that journalism is a man's world, that politics is a man's world, that this is a man's world, and photography has more or less been considered a man's world, I would believe, uh, since everything else has. Is that a part of the environment that you've become accustomed to, Diane Arbus?

Diane Arbus: N-no, I don't think so. I think there's a, um, uh, there's a funny long-standing tradition of housewife photographers. I mean, I think there have always been women photographers. They've been a little bit, um--

Richard Pyatt: By housewife photographers, do you mean, uh, you get a brownie or some kind of, uh--

Diane Arbus: Uh, no, very good ones. I mean, um, uh, Julia Margaret Cameron is a-- was a famous sort of-- she was kind of a rich lady who-- a rich, ugly lady who began to photo--had beautiful sisters. In the 19th century, this is.

Richard Pyatt: I suppose the-the type of photographic journalism in some respects would account for whether being a-a-a female photographer represents difficulties in our society or not. Uh, uh, what type of-- how would you classify, if you could, or if you could put it into any category, the type of work you do, the-the style of work?

Diane Arbus: Well, it's a kind of journalism. Uh, the fact that I don't do it for-- you know, exclusively for any particular journals. I mean, some of it I do just for me. I mean, for my journal. [laughs]

Richard Pyatt: Well, for example, uh, we are accustomed to-- we look through a magazine, we'll see pin-up pictures so-called-

Diane Arbus: Yeah.

Richard Pyatt: -women in bathing suits, or we'll see women in Playboy-type magazines. And that's a certain type of photography.

Diane Arbus: Right.

Richard Pyatt: Or we'll see, uh, maybe something by, uh, Steichen, which is a kind of study in character and we'll see that kind.

Diane Arbus: Mm-hmm.

Richard Pyatt: And just to get a frame of reference of the- of-of the type of subject that you pursue, uh, is there any particular subject or any particular story that you try to tell?

Diane Arbus: Um--

Richard Pyatt: Or you just walk down the street and take pictures of anything?

Diane Arbus: No, not usually, although sometimes I do that. Uh, now I'm very interested in the differences. Uh, some of these differences are, you know-- they're-they're-- everybody's got two eyes, a nose, and a mouth. But there are these incredible variations on that theme, also on, um, the nature of the person, what they choose in the way of what they wear, what their role is in-- you know, what their work is, ri-- how rich and how poor, what their sort of socials, intellectual sort of general position is, uh, certain attitudes or something like that, or a lot of this is visual.

Richard Pyatt: So that before you actually take a picture, a lot of this introspective analysis goes on in your mind.

Diane Arbus: I don't think it's analysis, but I- but I, uh-- it's an encounter, right? Sometimes I don't talk to-to the person at all. But there-there's some kind of element of like, uh, um, this other experience, this other sort of world, and this other sort of milieu.

Richard Pyatt: You are not repelled by the other world. There are certain subjects that--

Diane Arbus: There are millions of them. No, and I'm not repelled. In fact, the more different it is from mine, the better I like it.

Richard Pyatt: Some women in our society would be repelled by some of the subjects that you photograph. Uh, not that you photograph horrible subjects, but some women, uh, and some men are repelled, uh, by flowers, certain flowers, uh, certain subjects. I say this because I know you have pictures of midgets. Uh, you've taken pictures of transvestites, you've taken pictures of-of the content of our society. And as a woman, uh, doing this, do you feel that you removed yourself from the stereotyped idea of what a woman should do? Or is--

Diane Arbus: No, no. I think it's a kind of curiosity. It's just like I wanted to find out for myself what it was like as opposed to what I was told it was like. I mean, it's like when you grow up, your mother says, uh, you know, "Wear rubbers or else you'll catch cold." When you become an adult, you discover that you have the right not to wear rubbers if you want, and to see if you catch cold or not. It's something like that.

Richard Pyatt: Have you found-- uh, I suppose you've been taking pictures for a few years now. How many? [chuckles]

Diane Arbus: I don't know. Like 25 or something. I don't know.

Richard Pyatt: Have you ever found though, that you've been interfered with in this choice of profession in any way because you are a woman?

Diane Arbus: I don't think so. I think, uh-- no, I don't think so. I think in fact it's something of an advantage in certain ways. I mean, there are a couple of things I haven't been able to do like the-the-the, uh-- at Madison Square Garden, they've been sort of unpleasant a couple of times. I mean, this was years ago. Like I could never go in the men's boxer's dressing room. Uh--

Richard Pyatt: That's changing, isn't it?

Diane Arbus: I haven't been there in a while.

Richard Pyatt: Women's-- uh, there are women's sports writers now who are able.

Diane Arbus: Right. Yeah. Oh, sure that's changing. And, you know, it's terrific, but-but generally speaking, I haven't been, uh-- I think the only thing, uh, is the sense of, you know, what Women's Live people call the stereotype of, uh, I used to think like, how could I possibly be a photographer because I don't understand anything about machines.

Richard Pyatt: Mm-hmm.

Diane Arbus: You know? And that's the thing. I did grow up-- I grew up actually thinking I didn't-- wa-wasn't gonna do anything, you know, except like, choose a nice man and, you know, ma-make him happy and help him do what he did-

Richard Pyatt: What did you--

Diane Arbus: -or watch him do what he did or something like that
.
Richard Pyatt: When did you decide that-that-that's not what you wanted to do?

Diane Arbus: I don't know. I didn't really decide.

Richard Pyatt: Just happened?

Diane Arbus: It-it evolved, you know, like everything evolves and I-- no, I'm really kind of amazed.

Richard Pyatt: How did you-- uh, why did Bazaar put you in its magazine as 100-- one of the 100 women in touch with our time? What-what did your work-- was your work shown somewhere, or?

Diane Arbus: I don't know. I used to work for them. I think maybe they just were-- and I haven't worked for them in a couple of years. [chuckles] I think maybe they just felt a little guilty.

Richard Pyatt: You made a lasting impression on them, apparently.

Diane Arbus: [laughs] Well, I don't know. They just thought they'd gimme the sap. I don't know.

Richard Pyatt: Well, you haven't been interfered with in your professional life as a consequence of being a woman. Have you been interfered with in your personal life, uh, which is what it seems to be all about in terms of the revolt that's imminent on the part of the collective part of women in our society today? Or have you not felt any noticeable difficulties in being a female in this society?

Diane Arbus: Well, I-I-I like women's lib people, most of them. I mean, outside of the ones who've been really mean to me, I did one story on them. One-- uh, you know, I-I-I wouldn't find myself picketing or something like that. I mean, it's just not-- it would interfere with my work and a certain sense of myself as being alone, functioning alone, but-but I-I'm aware of a lot of the things that they speak of. Certainly, particularly the things of, um, of maintaining a kind of helpless feeling, which I think I grew up with and I think I've had to learn, and I'm still learning, you know, about sort of mastering it.

Richard Pyatt: Some of the things that are-- you-- incidentally you say you wouldn't picket or protest in a protesting line, I suppose. This, uh, is in agreement with a great majority-- [clears throat] Pardon me. A great majority of women according to the Lou Harris poll on uh, the opinion of women. This is one of the things that most women-- and one of the reasons given is that they consider it unladylike to pick it. I'm not sure that's your reason.

Diane Arbus: That is not my reason, no. I love unladylike things and I- and I like that they picket, you know? I mean, again, it's like, I like people who are not like me. I like even people I don't like.

Richard Pyatt: [chuckles] That's very good. There are some other ideas being suggested that it is impossible to, uh, put women in the proper cast of our society. It's impossible for women to put women unless the establishment and the particular political system that we have is overthrown. Is this a thought that you've given, uh, any attention to or any, uh, agreement to?

Diane Arbus: I don't have a great sense of politics. I do have a sense of, um-- I am interested in the possibilities of, uh, you know, what people say about the family. I mean, what Women's Lib people say about, you know-- or some Women's Lib people. I mean, there's a tremendous shades of opinion in that-

Richard Pyatt: Mm-hmm.

Diane Arbus: -whole, uh, you know, from the most radical to the--

Richard Pyatt: Where would you classify yourself on the spectrum?

Diane Arbus: Well, I don't think of myself as exactly a woman, you know what I mean? I just sort of think that they're nice and I think they've done a lot of good things. I mean, you know, I think abortion reform is terrific. I think, uh, you know, childcare centers are great because I think that that period of a woman's life of, you know, when you, uh, you know, when you're raising young children, it's very hard to work in that time. And-and I really began to work after that time.

Richard Pyatt: Mm-hmm.

Diane Arbus: I mean, you know, to really seriously work when my children were like six, seven, you know, I mean, above a certain age.

Richard Pyatt: Mm-hmm. [unintelligible 00:11:57].

Diane Arbus: And it's hard juggling those things. It really is
.
Richard Pyatt: Many women have found it almost impossible. Women that have wanted to have careers and have had husbands and children have indicated that this represents a very difficult, uh, situation if they were to pursue a career, but this has not stopped you in pursuing your career.

Diane Arbus: Well, I didn't- I didn't really have a career at that. I mean, I was something else. I worked with my-- I was a fashion photographer at that time, but I mean, I really did begin when my children grew. And it wasn't 'cause I was trying to pursue a career and couldn't, it was because it didn't occur to me to have a career.

Richard Pyatt: Mm.

Diane Arbus: Which is something else, which I think is important. Of course, I think men have problems too.

Richard Pyatt: That's a known fact.
[laughter]

Diane Arbus: You wanna tell me your problems?

Richard Pyatt: Where would one be able to see your pictures? Uh, I mean, uh, is that a difficult question to answer?

Diane Arbus: No. Well, look, well, I haven't made a book. I'm working on it, but I mean, it's gonna be a long time because I-I keep collecting. I'm like a--

Richard Pyatt: But do you give showings?

Diane Arbus: Well, I've had a show in the Museum of Modern Art. I've had a-- they're in the collection of the Museum of Modern Art.

Richard Pyatt: Mm-hmm.

Diane Arbus: Um, a couple in the Metropolitan, a couple in the other museums around the country, but, uh-- and in France, if anyone wants to travel to France. [laughs]

Richard Pyatt: There is a-a question I'd like to ask many of the women guests and--

Diane Arbus: Or people can come and- come and buy them from me.

Richard Pyatt: Oh, they can do that?

Diane Arbus: Yeah
.
Richard Pyatt: You sell-- do people buy pictures?

Diane Arbus: People do buy pictures. In fact, more and more.

Richard Pyatt: I mean- I mean photographic pictures
.
Diane Arbus: Right. In fact, I've got a portfolio that I'm selling. Yeah.

Richard Pyatt: And you live in New York.

Diane Arbus: Yeah.

Richard Pyatt: Okay. Uh, the-- what would you consider to be, uh, the greatest problem in being a woman today?

Diane Arbus: Today.

Richard Pyatt: Or what would you consider to be the most enjoyable thing about being a woman?

Diane Arbus: Um, well, I think, you know, sexual freedom is very enjoyable and I think, uh, you know, the fact that things are changing so much that, uh, it's quite-- is, you know, it's both painful for people, but it's also very, uh, I think, uh, you know, the woman part of it is sort of terrific fun 'cause women have a lot more power now sexually in the first place, but that sort of spills over.

Richard Pyatt: I-I would like to get your, uh, reaction to the fact that in this Louis Harris poll, again, we're referring to that sexual freedom was very, very low on the, uh, benefits of the movement of Women's Liberation today. They-- this was, uh, somewhere in the 2% or something like that. Why-why is that? Why do you feel--

Diane Arbus: These were- these weren't Women's Lib people or these were--

Richard Pyatt: No, these were the average women throughout the nation being polled on, uh, what they felt about the depression.

Diane Arbus: They didn't feel that-that Women's Lib had helped their sexual freedom any?

Richard Pyatt: No.

Diane Arbus: Or they didn't want sexual freedom.

Richard Pyatt: This was relatively unimportant in, uh, in what they considered to be, uh, the benefits or the spillover from what is happening-

Diane Arbus: I see.

Richard Pyatt: -in terms of the revolt.

Diane Arbus: Well, I don't-- you know, I think maybe some people don't think of that as a particular social benefit, you know. [chuckles] I mean, it's a kind of private benefit. I'm-- I was-- you know, it just occurred to me-

Richard Pyatt: [laughs]

Diane Arbus: -as the kind of thing that I like, you know.

Richard Pyatt: Right. I-- Most women that we've spoken to certainly consider it important. The, uh--

Diane Arbus: Well, yeah, I think it's important. I mean, just the sense that women can now experience the same variety as men-men have traditionally experienced. And that sense of variety whereas women used to identify sex with love and with-- not just with love, but with a kind of social desirability. I mean, you would have a date, you know, 15 years ago and you would-- it would be a man you would be proud to be seen walking down the street with. Now you really don't give a shit if it's somebody you'd be proud-- you know? I mean, it doesn't-- and that's very interesting. I think sex is very educational.

Richard Pyatt: Biologically or psychologically?

Diane Arbus: Well, I guess, I mean, psychologically, but just in, uh, you know, in the whole spectrum of your feeling and knowing about what it's like to be here, you know, which is why I photograph, why I do all these things.

Richard Pyatt: It has- it has been scientifically ascertained-

Diane Arbus: [laughs]

Richard Pyatt: -that women-
-
Diane Arbus: Sex is educational.

[laughter]

Richard Pyatt: That sex is educational and that women are absolutely different from men. Uh, their chromosomes in every cell of their body-

Diane Arbus: Oh, really?

Richard Pyatt: -is absolutely different from that of the male, which makes them an entirely unique and different, uh, animal.

Diane Arbus: Hmm.

Richard Pyatt: And with-- a-and that being so, the-the question is asked and the thought arises, should not women be considered more as another human being on the earth rather than the sidekick of the male or the lesser aspect of the male, but should have-- women should be-- uh, ha-have their own, um, institutions and their own laws and what have you. Does this appeal to you as a woman?

Diane Arbus: Well, it depends what you mean by their own. I-I like the differences between-- I mean, I've always-- because I like all differences, I've always been interested in the differences between women and men. But I've begun to think a little bit that some of them are, you know, cultural ones. I mean, certainly-

Richard Pyatt: Mm-hmm.

Diane Arbus: -the Women's Lib was interestingly proved that a lot more of them are cultural ones than we thought. Uh, you-you know, I'm not sure about your scientific, um, uh, you know, biological data. Uh, you know, for one thing, I've learned to distrust a lot of- a lot of-- you know, uh, a lot of polls, a lot of data-

Richard Pyatt: [laughs]

Diane Arbus: -a lot of so on. I mean, they're not always-- you know, they tend to sort of be subject to cultural forms and--

Richard Pyatt: I found this out in a book written by an Australian woman called-- named Lisa Hobbs. Um, uh, and I suppose the scientific data was compiled by males, but she was citing it and, uh, they have-- I suppose there's, uh, validity to this. Uh, they've studied it in some way. We know that women's vocal cords certainly vibrate faster than men's-

Diane Arbus: Mm-hmm.

Richard Pyatt: -and, uh, which accounts for their higher-pitched voice. Probably accounts for the-the rapidity of speech, too, [laughs] we find with some of them.

Diane Arbus: I'm speaking fast?

Richard Pyatt: No, not you

Diane Arbus: Uh, well, um, to answer that better, I like the differences. And I would like-- and I figure they must be inevitable. You don't have to, uh, create sort of separate institutions to establish them, I don't think. I think-- I mean, for instance, there are women photographers and men photographers of women's pictures. I-I don't think, you-you know, it's a theme you should hammer on too long. I mean, you shouldn't have like a separate women's photographer show because that's so totally different from men's photographer show. I mean, you know-

Richard Pyatt: Mm-hmm.

Diane Arbus: -they can-- in fact, you know, one reason sex between women-women and men is nice is because of this-- uh, you know, what Lisa Hobbs says-

Richard Pyatt: Yeah.

Diane Arbus: -about these biological differences, [unintelligible 00:19:31].

Richard Pyatt: There are a number of women and men today who consider sex between women-- two women and sex between two men as very nice. Um, is this part of the freedom, the sexual freedom, as a result of these liberating protesting movements that is coming about?

Diane Arbus: Mm-hmm, I think so. I think, um-- I think it's-- I think eventually, it's not gonna be such a noticeable big deal. I mean, you know, it doesn't really matter if it's not hurting anybody. And if it's fun, and then-- and actually I've seen it. I've done it. I've, you know-- I mean, and-and it is-- it has certain different qualities.

Richard Pyatt: Incidentally, uh, our guest is Diane Arbus who is a photographer, a New York-based photographer, and obviously an independent woman. Um, which would lead me to refer, one, to my poll, and two, to ask you if, based on the leading premise of this poll, which is that there's a serious revolt on the horizon, uh, with a surging coalition of women who are going to really, really be heard from and felt in-in a very short time. And-and, uh, Mr. Harris has said that those who ignore this do so at their own peril. Do you feel this serious undercurrent in our society as a woman? Or is this just the usual, uh, cycle of activity that comes and goes?

Diane Arbus: Uh, well, I have two different feelings. I think, um, there's something serious about it, something good about it, something gratifying about it. On the other hand, I think that if people concentrate on what they, uh, how they've been abused, uh, they feel more abused. You know? I mean, it somehow makes a bit much of it. The other thing is, I think, and somebody else pointed this out to me, that, uh, Women's Lib is a very popular, uh, because it's-- it doesn't really cost anybody very much. So it's a popular revolution, and that's why I think it's gonna be very successful and sort of noticeable. I mean, the press likes it, and so on

And it's-- I even heard on the radio this morning that, uh, you know, the civil rights movement has suffered, uh, because of the attention to Women's Lib because it's a much more palatable thing. I mean, politicians and so on. People can give into Women's Lib, uh, because, you know, it really doesn't matter. I mean, who-who cares? You know what I mean? I think some of the things are important, but I think others of them are just simply popular and sort of pap things, you know?

So I think in-in, that's the-- that's one danger that women are A, gonna concentrate on, you know, like all this trouble they've been having, I mean, or how incredibly difficult it is, you know, sure, it's difficult, but life is difficult, you know. And the other thing is that it-it may, uh, by-- you know, make people ignore graver issues or graver injustices, you know.

Richard Pyatt: There's also the question of whether women really want to win the victory that they may win. There are a number that shy away from it. And is this-- the reason for this, uh, has been-- that has been given, is that women have not had the opportunity to know who they are in a similar way that men have from their upbringing as children, that, um, uh, their toys have been, uh, objective whereas the male toys are usually subjective and they can identify with it. For example, stoves, little miniature stoves, and sewing kits and clothes for-for girls.

Diane Arbus: Mm-hmm.

Richard Pyatt: It means that they're serving someone else. They're-they're cooking or they're using little washing machines or-or little-little sewing kits for the--

Diane Arbus: Mm-hmm.

Richard Pyatt: But, uh, boys play with, um, uh, uh-

Diane Arbus: [unintelligible 00:23:58].

Richard Pyatt: With trucks and things that they will drive or whatever.

Diane Arbus: Well, I think that's-- that is interesting. I mean, I think that's one of the very interesting things that, uh, men are connected to the idea of working and, you know, really functioning in what-

Richard Pyatt: Mm-hmm.

Diane Arbus: -you know, what you call a society. And women, you know, have this like, uh, or used to. But I think, you know, that's certainly changing and I think it's terrific to learn that work is some method for exercising yourself.
Richard Pyatt: We have about a moment, and in that moment, let me ask you a question regarding your work. Does your attitude change when you photograph a man, uh, a male or, or a female? Or-or-or you're not influenced by that at all?

Diane Arbus: Oh, I think I'm influenced by everything. I don't know what I'm-- you know, I don't-- I think it's very deep in you.

Richard Pyatt: We conclude this program of Viewpoints of Women. Our voice [unintelligible 00:25:02] presenting the diverse viewpoints of approximately 53% of our population. And our guest has been Diane Arbus, who as we introduced her, is adventurous, mysterious. Uh, this is the way she works, this is the way she talks. And, uh, this counts for all the individuality and the differences that we find in men and women, and certainly in our guest, Diane Arbus. Your comments and suggestions will be read with care. Send them to Viewpoints of Women WNYC, New York 10007.

Speaker 1: Host for the preceding special program was WNYC Program Manager Richard Pyatt.

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