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Are New Yorkers endangered by the air they breathe is air pollution a necessary evil of continued industrialization in New York City might New York become so large now how can an pollution be controlled How does New Jersey air pollution affect New York City. The answers to these and other questions listen now to your city stations campus press conference each week at this time in this transcribed discussion editors of college newspapers question and here's where they personality moderator is the noted editor and US paper and then Jay Nelson tough now to introduce the panel and tonight's guest here is Mr Tucker Good evening every New Yorker who looks at the sky sees all around him small stacks blowing black felt out into our atmosphere. And surely there was no one in the city who was not often held as no pile of us Rod passed and hit him in the face with a noxious exhaust the man who was most concerned with these problems and who is working to do something about them is our guest this evening on campus press conference here's Dr Leonard Greenberg city commissioner of absolution control Dr Greenberg began his career as an industrial engineer and then moved to the United States Public Health Service where he specialized in problems of air control and dust Diseases at the same time he took a free H.D. and Yale and still later went to the Yale Medical School and became a doctor of medicine the service health commissioner of the city of New Haven and director of industrial hygiene and the New York State Department of Labor before he came to his present post in one nine hundred fifty two here today to question Dr Greenberg got five collegiate editors they are Peter Franklin of the City College observation post. Robert Byrd and Henry Kurtz both of the Columbia Spectator and Ed Starr and Jim Pharrell both of before them like cigarettes and stuff like Dr Greenberg is our pollution a necessary evil of continued industrialization in New York City well our promotion comes from people living in close I Greg ations in cities and from industrialization but we hope that in the future as numerous plants are established the new factories set up that and pollution will be brought under control when the factories organize and pollution will not of necessity originate in these new instance. Jim Carroll one of the cities in this country that's going to be eating with us for becoming the largest city in the world population life is Los Angeles which is proud of its weather yet imposed upon that weather right is a very serious smog problem is New York City in danger of falling Los Angeles down a spike alley. Well this is certainly a possibility if the intensity of automobile traffic increases sufficiently and we have some adverse weather conditions this is perfectly possible. Watching me that has not occurred to any serious extent up to this time sir back in November one thousand nine hundred fifty three we had a a phenomenon which I believe your department or some journalists labeled as some A's which is a rather serious certain odd combination is there a danger of this happening again and what precisely was the ultimate cause of that was this way you know caused by temperature information in there which is a media logic condition. Characterized by a lack of diffusion of the contaminants from the area above the city this is caused in turn by a heavy layer of warm air lying since this happens in Los Angeles on the average of about two hundred fifty times. In New York City it only happens occasionally in one thousand and fifty three it happened for a period of eight or nine days and this was the basis for what reason cause me whatever you call it it makes no difference the fact is it's a high concentration of pollutants kept in place by an order. Of warm air which does not permit the winds to move from the ocean All right. Dr Greenberg What methods are currently being employed to curb or control the pollution of our air and this is a question which it demands a lengthy answer to too lengthy to bring out here. For control of air pollution means must be applied and techniques must be applied to every type of source of their pollution let me amplify to control the pollution from all it will be older buses requires one place to control the pollution from boilers coal burning boilers requires a different way to control the pollution from incinerators requires a different take. So on each case why we attempt to do is to determine the soul eyes and then find out what technique is applicable do that source for the control of the pollution sometimes a very difficult problem and the drive to Florida. Frankly commissioner Greenberg is it possible the pinpoint who are the biggest offenders in New York City who we can look forward to the final responsibility for the air pollution Oh yes we know all rich saucers constitute the most important ones from the point of view of air pollution and our problems we know who are users of coal and who blows most coal out of the stack you know which pollutes of the Senate. For example one of the waste sources of pollution at the present time is a fifty ninth Street power play out there which is owned and operated by the city of New York you know this is well known. You know we know you know the contribution that comes from incinerators we know the contribution that comes from oil burning equipment and we know the contribution of comes from one can ever since power plants fall off either yes or Well Commissioner if you say that the city itself is one of the biggest offenders how can you possibly hope for the average apartment house to possibly be able to combat the pollution Well this this with again raises another interesting point you say you know one that when the source of pollution is small are relatively small and such for example as an ordinary apartment house we get a whole. To remedy that condition in a relatively short time when the source of pollution is a huge power plant which may for example of cost of thirty or forty million dollars to build and which might cost six or seven million dollars to correct and remedy and which might take two or three years in in N. correcting and then the problem is entirely different in one case you're getting more for fast results and in a lot of the case you have to program a media development control techniques you know which might take two or three years still in store test and fact and this is the problem and I think Bob Byrd has been waiting all this time to follow up his first question well. How many air pollution specifically be detected what are some of the techniques used well. We have a laboratory situated east of hundred twenty five straight. Which is. What your question and your initial laboratory we sample the atmosphere for all kinds of different polar carbon monoxide aldehyde hire a car and all of the various pollutants that exist in the atmosphere and leave and also I should add solids Dustin's And so that and it we could have a continuous check only needs pollutants in the atmosphere in many places all over the city for example there are solids sampled in twenty two places sampling points all over the city and analyze each month and you can sample among most anybody's wonder cells Yes we have a sample and we have sampled it on Windows and we've sampled up against that kind of store and brought it into the laboratory for another's. I'm I dared that one thing perhaps to clarify the problem one of the most difficult parts of being in the field of control of their pollution comes about because in many cases we do not have that technique at hand to bring about control to take for example the apartment house in center a. We have approximately eleven thousand apartment house and senate races in New York City and leaves in center a nose are very bad in design and in spite of the fact that we have worked for well over a year almost two years in making a detailed study or bench problem in cooperation with New York University we have not yet come up with a design which we feel is competent and capable of doing the job that we are interested in obtaining in other ways so far we just do it scratched the surface and we just have to devote more money time and study in this aspect of the problem now once we have a solution of this problem that technical solution we can put into effect in these eleven thousand apartment houses and then you and your families will not complain of the sun on the window sill like to do for you to what extent would increase public awareness control air pollution Well public awareness is important we like the people of the city to let us know where they have been legitimate complaints of the pollution This makes it possible for us to get our novel and to get inspectors out and see just what the source may be for example it's against a lot of burn an apartment house and center a door after the after five o'clock at night. Now if somebody is venting one of these in center it is seven o'clock at night and sound so to us and lets us know about this weekend catch them at it and immediately give them a summons and discontinue this practice. The point of the commission would you like to give your phone number at this point I suspect some of our listeners what I like are your phone number is a form of the Department of their pollution control which is why a four or four and ninety five of my own personal account number I don't write well imagine is unless they're well good for part of the world. I just like this as a follow up to Bob's question what is being done in the area of public relations to help inform people of the dangers of air pollution and of the existing laws all we have we have been very much interested in a public relations programme for example whenever a radio station asked me to appear I appear on many radio stations in accordance with these requests and I've been on television with many of the important do television stations and then we have a man who takes care of our public relations we publish pamphlets we feed the newspaper stories on what is being done one is not being done and we tried to inform them the status of our problem and then the addition of this we publish a little leaflet and call it only flew a few sheets which we call the air pollution control no this is published every month and has wide circulation I think our mailing list now is about eleven hundred copies and we are. Well aware of the importance of public information and we try and every way possible to keep the public informed as to what we're doing and what progress we're making at Starbucks. We have discussed the role of the city and come batting air pollution do you feel that private industry is contributing enough time money and research to eliminating this problem yes private industry has been spending money for research. And a great deal of research is being done in the field of air pollution today here it's a great deal more for example than was done five years ago the federal government for example is spending about three million dollars a year now in research in educational way going training right industry is spending a great deal of money in industry has a very big problems which require the expenditure of a great deal of money. And industry so I must say doing a very fair job in going along with us in control take me with a sign that's true of Consolidated Edison the most now and I look at their power plants and see that black smoke just pouring out I don't they claim to be working on it but do you see results the casual I doubt it well this is a thing that the casual like and well Mitch. McConnell person has spent about thirty six million dollars on our pollution control in the last six or seven years it's not casual sun it's the Friday sale let me just point out one example to you which I think is a very interesting one the Hudson ave a plant which at one time was the biggest power plant in the United States and still ranks among the big players is situated over in Brooklyn near the Navy Yard. Now this plan was a quip with poor quality under fire and strong feelings which were just adequate. In during the last few years we've had a program of rehabilitation of this plant with a Con Edison Company and by the end of nineteen fifty eight the schedule calls for the complete conversion of this plant from coal or wood or. And when this is done that seems to me an important contributor to way on to the air pollution of the city. In fact I would venture a little point. Let me also point out Mr Tucker that Condit was one aware as we. Contribution plans here not make. Going. To work two and a half months ago I'm going to look for the federal park and then you have to get Con Edison some gas they could you use that plant for history where also you spread a plant to plant East River and we want you know if I. Presume the coal consumption to plant. A Federal Power Commission has yet given up smiling. And I have hopes that Federal Power Commission will grant you natural gas and these two sources will be great for your future right there yes there are other Western for you was there an answer feedback on the last question you pointed out there was a difference between any problem faced by private small part health center and the problem faced by a more expensive city plant which takes years correct is there any is anything being done to correct the city but at the present time well so far as apartment is concerned the fifty ninth Street plant if you mean that course that's one of the plants that now the city now has on the consideration about selling to call yes we're going down a problem to Connecticut. Actually I'll see more of the city the city only really thought. One can get you in Brooklyn one seventy fourth Street from an account from. And in the morning we call the fifty ninth Street and it's really you know. Really fifty eight to fifty ninth Street on the Hudson River. There's been great talk about selling planes for medicine and. We know the answer. In the next. Five or six months if these plants are so the kind that it won't let me do it leaving possibly once the like Rick Tyler lines are completed for Con Edison to cut down the load on his fifty ninth Street. And instead of running it Piccolo if they are going to get sixty you know seventy percent of this should decrease the amount of pollution coming from this plant but this is only a start in fact we hope that they might take the one you know to save. The I mean answer that until such a sale or the lack of such a sale is finally resolve the problem of solving the air pollution contributed by the plant is into space and that's all right yes and here is a good example of these high big charges that I spoke about. To me about to take effect plant which at the present time is roughly fifty years of age. With the exception of one small farm it would cost something of the order of seventy million dollars. The city hasn't got the seventy minutes to spend. Money yes it's a lot of money and even if the city did have it and it was available as of this moment it would take at least. Three to four years correct this clear. Bring it up to date. Peter Frank the commissioner you mentioned the cooperation at Con Edison has given the question comes to my mind what does your department do for people who won't cooperate in other words that's the motorist who doesn't have that much aware of the superintendent of the apartment house he doesn't use his chimney correctly that are along the line. Are you fight just cover the whole ship and we have a presence there thirty five in fact and then patrolling the whole city in Cozumel and what. And if we get there if we don't take such a man as you speak of such a building superintendent who has fired his lawyer in such a manner as to produce in the mission of small to get someone and he goes into the magistrate's court during the last year I might say you nineteen fifty eight so far up to August we say four hundred ninety nine search done to apply only. The air pollution rules and. What's the average fine if he's convicted one it's hard for me to give you another a just a thought but I'd say the most frequent find five dollars but we have heard from up to one hundred and five for persistence if I will of violence that's right yes and Rick Perry It sounds like to Greenberg thirty five inspectors seems like a rather small amount are these men sufficient to adequately enforce the. No this is not an adequate number of inspectors my opinion. But we like many other city departments have to live within the budget we get. And we try to make the most up. I think that one can do a lot better job than we had in the seventy. Four We just haven't got some of those coming in as well as we can each year we ask for more each year we get a few more but that isn't quite enough to help do the job that we would like to do for the sentence in far off are the New York Police far is in your police force not the right if you're summoned to this yet in this regard certainly this is not the first time that your phone number will be heard by our listeners during the course of the past year that your department has had a recording of the old ways telling the good listener exactly what number to call when they see smoke and what sort of violation do you want to listen to report how do we go about reporting a part of the phone call and I have a concrete example say we see a bus that is speeding fumes out or driving behind it so we make a note of the number going over the number of the bus. Name of the martial law. And the point at which you won when you saw the violation such as Fifth Avenue and thirty fourth Street at six o five P.M. today. And with this data we can locate the bus the bus driver and we can use a bunch of company to look over the plans to see why it is to do so from what other violations of life that the average person were being fined for not be likely to survive while the average person can tell the department about any type of excess in the mission of smoke fly ash automobile exhaust no anything up really an industrial and of course the pollutant that he thinks or she thinks you're going to drive to the attention of the Department. Let's go over a certain what possible relationship you feel exists between air polluted by chemical increased incidence of lung cancer. This is a very good question I wish I could answer more definitely the only thing I can say yet that there are appears to be a relationship and I am convinced that this is the relationship between singer excess of cigarette smoking and lung cancer but there are also good today that indicate that they are pollution play some part of the problem and of this disease. This is one of those areas where it's difficult to come to a hard and fast conclusions in a short time if we're not climbing walls studying very careful amount of money and we probably know the answers to move ahead for prudent. Henry Kravis wants a little more I want point I just might ask what is being done in the way of medical research in the area that will. There's a good deal being done in this country and in the. In the field of medical research. The several of our universities are engaged in the what appears to be or good medical research the United States Public Health Service years ago several of the universities are engaged in statistical research. From leaves all of these sources to get an eyeful in that period of four or five years we'll have answers to some of the questions which have been about. But again this time you know you can't you can't be hasty about coming to a conclusion in this field check and recheck that confirmatory evidence from other sources on tell your head doctor that leader saying this and so you have to be sure to ask witness for example how long it took us to come to any conclusion that this walking was related to approach to events working all these years people that and it's only in the last few years that everybody got an inkling that cigarette smoking was really their. Life so long care fought for it as a question for a doctor or surgeon you've ever hoped to purify the end of the same extended water it's now Europe. Oh I don't think that's possible. I don't think this is possible and I don't think it's necessary. And. It's not possible because A we can control what in a conduit. We can control it in a basin or a reservoir but we cannot control every new fashion. For example where we get a second monitor pollution from J.C. no matter what we do in New York City on the prevailing west winds we get pollution from. We can't. Be at the point where we're saying it's the same status and you'll want to. And there's another very interesting little point here you know when water is purified if you're a flight or fight from creations to a layer of sand and this is a factor of the extent of about ninety seven percent but then to get the last remaining three percent of bacteria like that chlorine gas is used up. And this practical. Practical effect so it means there are no pathogenic locking. But we're there we can't do this can't have assumed great example or any big power plant can take ninety six percent of solids out of the stack yet but four percent which remains there's a large weight and a large volume of cotton for Karslake five million tons of coal. And I just tell you I think it takes off the sound on three percent or five million times you're still blowing a lot of small caps. A lot of. I really have no way of getting at least three or four percent Peter Frank on the question point Commissioner Greenberg a moment ago you mentioned New Jersey and the problem it presents towards New York City is New Jersey currently doing anything to combat the area or yes New Jersey has a. They set up an organization the State Department of Health and they have a Control Commission which is acting and I think J.C. is moving along on the problem here it's very difficult it's complicated it's a large problem the big question is a great aggregate of heavy industry in the J.J. and dusting and. Chemical Industries and what you see when you cross the river and it will take years to bring these under control but I would say that the game is moving ahead and trying their finish to do it you are as a question have to be equipment also you said before that The New York uniformed police officer is authorized to authorise a lot have you received sufficient cooperation in your opinion from the uniformed police on Yes yes I would say so the police commissioner has a very receptive to our efforts. Cooperate very much they want us there and any. Patrolmen they have likewise I mean as time goes on this relationship gets closer and closer and I think we will get the results it will only get you know largely through the efforts of the apartment and city department to really. Greenberg thank you very much for having problems afternoon to visit campus press conference. Our guest has been Dr Leonard Greenbrier was commissioner of Appalachian control of the city of New York. Here. Question this evening by Peter Franklin of the City College observation post by Robert Byrd and Henry currents both of the Columbia spanked. And by Ed stronger and Gentile who are both before them like so. Until next week thank you for listening and body. You have just heard editors of college newspapers interviewing in years where they personality on campus press conference moderator each week is J. Nelson talk noted that if we invite your comments on this program please mail them to campus press conference W. N.Y.C. New York seven. And they want us again next Sunday at nine for another edition of campus press conference I transcribed public affairs state your obvious City station.