Emerging from the Pandemic & Shedding Gender Expectations

Brain Lehrer: Brain Lehrer on WNYC. We'll end today, spend about our last 15 minutes with another lived experience call-in. Today, we're going to revisit style and personal expression. Now you may remember that we recently invited you to call in and talk about how your personal style has or hasn't changed for you after pandemic isolation.

Based on some of the calls we got last time on how you wanted to come out of isolation and be different in your clothing and your dress and your style than you were before, we want to make room on the show right now for listeners who specifically have come out of the pandemic dressing in a way that goes against traditional gender norms, no matter where on the gender spectrum you are. This is inspired, in part, by one of the calls we had that day Jim Bay in Harlem who explained how being faced with his mortality because of the pandemic caused him to do what he wants.

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Jim Bay: I was thinking about this all during the pandemic. I decided just where would I want. I just decided, "Well, you know what? We might not be here in two years or a year or five years." I just decided, "Look, I'm just going to wear what I want," and I'm even scruffy up going out scruffy, not to anything business-wise or just casually. I got a pair of 6-inch heels, boot heels, and what else. I decided to wear colors. What else? Oh, painting my nails occasionally, why not. With Russia and the bombs and all this, you might not be here to enjoy our life, so I always say do it before you're 90.

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Brain Lehrer: Jim Day in Harlem, calling the show a few weeks ago. Listeners, what about you? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 as we're making a little space for those of you who came out of the pandemic, the isolation period when you weren't dressing for outside at all in a way that goes against traditional gender norms. This could mean you came out as nonbinary for the first time, this could mean that you're a cisgender heterosexual who just decided to dress in some differently expressive ways, maybe Jim Bay's story sounds a little you in some respects.

No matter where on the gender spectrum you are how does your clothing now reflect your gender identity, or let's just say very broadly or gender expression, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. I'll tell you another inspiration for this segment, conversations we were having as a team behind the scenes here. One of our producers said that the pandemic really put things in perspective for them.

Again, being faced with a possibly imminent death. They said, "You know what? I'm coming out as non-binary." Even though they had previously been ashamed of the very idea, they came to terms with the fact that they had always wanted to wear men's clothes, born a woman, I presume, and so now that's what they're doing. They realize that the only person holding them back from doing that was them.

Now they're dressing in a way that feels true to them, their quality of life has improved immensely. We are told in a first-person expression. Do any of you, listeners, relate to that? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer if you want to share a little bit of your gender journey as expressed through your clothing, 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692. We'll take your calls right after this.

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Brian, Lehrer on WNYC. Now to your calls on clothing as an expression of gender in your case before or after the pandemic, really. Mercy in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Mercy.

Mercy: Hey Brian, I'm a huge fan, happy to be here. I went into the pandemic as a male and came out of it a nonbinary transfem. That happened bit by bit as I started wearing skirts because there are more comfortable and then I realized, "Hey, this isn't just comfort, this is who I am."

Brain Lehrer: There you go. Are you getting a reaction to it if you're out in public differently than you were before?

Mercy: Yes, I've definitely noticed people approach me differently and treating me differently and people who stare or make comments.

Brain Lehrer: Does that make you want to go back into your clothing closet a little bit, if you know what I mean?

Mercy: It has no bearing at all on what I see as my necessary path now.

Brain Lehrer: Mercy, thank you so much for starting us off. Richard in Croton-on-Hudson, you're on WNYC. Hi, Richard.

Richard: Hey, Brian, how are you?

Brain Lehrer: Good, thank you.

Richard: Are you there?

Brain Lehrer: I am here.

Richard: Are you there?

Brain Lehrer: Can you hear me?

Richard: Yes, I can hear you, and thank you for taking the call. What a great topic. I'm 80 years old, and I've been a recreational crossdresser for a good deal of my life. I've performed as a cross-dressed person, but during the pandemic, I just began to realize I could relax and fall back into the pool of nonbinary comfort. It's really been terrific, no wig, no face full of makeup but able to express myself through my clothing and my breast forms which have become for me a I don't wish to insult anyone who's taking hormones, but for me, it has acted in a similar way that it puts me in a feminine space and gives me an appearance that I like a great deal.

Brain Lehrer: How do people respond to you, and has it changed over time, you're 80.

Richard: The odd thing is that I get no bizarre, certainly, no hostile, hardly any reaction at all and people respond to me almost more energetically than they had in the past. It may just be that I have become myself, but [unintelligible 00:07:27] the blessing.

Brain Lehrer: Thank you for sharing a little of yourself with us, 212-433-WNYC. For anyone else who wants to share a little bit of your gender journey through your clothing expression as expressed by your clothing, and if that has changed for you as a result of the pandemic or any other reason recently no matter what your gender identity is. Like I said in the intro, you could be cisgender heterosexual but changing what you wear to be less gender-conforming just what you wear or you can be anywhere else on the gender spectrum, 212-433-WNYC. Ash in Middletown, New Jersey, you're on WNYC. Hi, Ash.

Ash: Hi.

Brain Lehrer: Got a story for us.

Ash: I do. When COVID started, I was in the middle of high school. I was very active on social media. While COVID was going on, obviously, I became more active over social media. I would see a lot of people sharing their coming out stories and showing what they wear and what makes them comfortable, and it helped me to realize that I personally was gender genderqueer. It helped me to find different styles that I liked and be comfortable wearing what I liked whether it be more masculine or feminine presenting or a mix of both.

Brain Lehrer: What's an example, in your case, of something that you may not have been wearing before?

Ash: I don't know. I would sometimes wear really nice button-up shirts with a tie with maybe just a nice skirt or even wear a little bit more feminine tops or corsets with just really big cargo pants. I always felt like, after coming out, I had to stick to adjusting like more masculine, but it definitely helped me realize that it doesn't matter what they perceive me, whatever makes me feel comfortable with myself.

Brain Lehrer: Got it. Ash, thank you so much. Call us again. Francis in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Francis.

Francis: Hi, Brian. I left New York City with my husband and my two kids, basically dropped everything and lived in Suburban Connecticut for six months and then we came back just to visit and I remember the moment of opening up my closet and not knowing who that person was and was really shocked by that. Then I just decided without even thinking about it just got rid of all of my dresses and cut my hair really short and stopped.

I hadn't been wearing makeup but I didn't go back to wearing makeup. I actually changed my name to my middle name which is Francis, my first name is Lily. I'm much more comfortable existing like a non-binary place, but still identifying cisgender and still in a marriage with a man, but I just feel much more myself now and much happier.

Brain Lehrer: Of course, Francis is one of those names that could be either what we call a boy's name or a girl's name. How's your husband with all this?

Francis: I share his clothes a lot.

Brain Lehrer: That could be very sweet.

Francis: It can be very sweet and we've actually become closer I think just personality types. It's not so much like a woman's role or man's role, we share both roles in our reationship and that's important for our children to experience as well.

Brain Lehrer: Wonderful story, Francis. Thank you so much. Sophia in the Bronx, you're on WNYC. Hi, Sophia.

Sophia: Hello. I just wanted to share that I'm an androgynous, my sexual woman end that likes to play around with feminine and masculine, identities with whatever I'm wearing but I noticed ever since the pandemic, I got involved with the community gardens and I'm always getting dirty because I'm weeding or planting. Now it was whatever I'm wearing, whether it's a dress with sneakers or if it's something where it's more feminine. I'm just not afraid to get dirty anymore because I noticed that I just go off the be in Central Park and I start looking for mushrooms or planting and I just always get dirty and I'm just okay with it now.

Brain Lehrer: How does that relate to your gender-specific or gender-non-specific clothing?

Sophia: I just feel as though being a woman presenting and mainly being feminine, we're not supposed to get dirty, we're always supposed to be clean because that's what girls are supposed to do, but I just felt that me connecting with nature just made me more connected to Mother Earth and being more feminine.

Brain Lehrer: Guys care less, in general, we'll just get our clothes dirty and whatever. Traditionally, the women are in all lives would make fun of us for it. Sophia, thank you very much. One more. Sam in Hicksville, you're on WNYC. Hi, Sam, we've got about 30, 40 seconds for you.

Sam: Hi, Brian. Actually, I've on the other side of the spectrum. I used to dress a lot more masculine because I was working a more physical job and during the pandemic got a job at an office and had to dress like much more feminine professional desire, so it's been a big shift.

Brain Lehrer: How does it feel?

Sam: I don't think I like it too much but when I go home, I get right back into my normal garb, my [inaudible 00:14:04] so much feminine, I'm hoping one day I can move over to pants more but I just don't want to rock the boat at work.

Brain Lehrer: Sam, thank you very much for your call. Thanks to all of you who called in with gender expression and your clothing. That's the Brian Lehrer Show for today produced by Mary Croke, Lisa Allison, Amina Srna, Carl Boisrond, and Emily Lowinger, Zach Gottehrer-Cohen produces our Daily Politics podcast. Megan Ryan is the head of live radio and we had Juliana Fonda at the audio controls. I'm Brian Lehrer.

 

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