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The Flags You Fly

Faith Ringgold's painting, "The Flag is Bleeding," is one of her works on display during a media preview of her exhibition, "American People, Black Light: Faith Ringgold’s Paintings of the 1960."

The day after Independence Day, listeners call in to share all the different types of flags they fly and how they represent their values.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC, and we will take the last 15 minutes of the show here on the 5th of July to ask what kind of a flag you might have been flying on the 4th of July. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. We can broaden this to how you were feeling about the country or whatever state of social justice you're most concerned about during the 4th of July holiday period as you reflected on the country.

We definitely want to talk about actual flags, literal flags. Did you know that the 4th of July is peak season for flag sales? That probably makes common sense. About 150 million American flags are sold every year according to the Flag Manufacturer Association of America. First time we've ever cited that industry group on the show. We're going to open up the phones for a broader question than that. Who flies an American flag or any other flag outside your home, and what does it mean to you?

212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Because in recent years, you may have noticed so many other types of flags either flying so low or along with an American flag. In addition to the obviously patriotic flags, there are also flags that display other kinds of values. In metropolitan places, you will likely see flags that display progressive values, Black Lives Matter flags, pride flags, flags calling to end gun violence, or ones that say climate change is real. Have you ever seen that one?

There's also a 2016 era flag still popular today that sums up a bunch of these values that says, "In this house, we believe Black Lives Matter, women's rights are human rights, no human is illegal, science is real, love is love, kindness is everything." I've never seen one of those flags. It would probably have to have a lot of really small print, but do you fly a flag that represents progressive or liberal values instead or alongside an American flag?

212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. There are of course flags that represent conservative values too according to a Harper's article. The Blue Lives Matter flag supporting police was created with a white University of Michigan student named Andrew Jacob in 2014 as a backlash to that year's protest against the police killings of Eric Garner, Michael Brown, and Tamir Rice. Since then we've seen the rise of flags that represent red lines for EMS and firefighters, camouflage lines that represent support for the military, and so on. Those are not necessarily conservative but sometimes overlap with conservative politics.

What kind of flags do you fly? Are they symbols of your liberal or conservative or progressive or other values support for a profession that you are in or support, or both, or other? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. If you want to expand it from that, if you consider yourself a member of any traditionally marginalized group in the context of the United States, or a traditionally privileged group in the context of the United States, what were you thinking or feeling about our country as you watched the fireworks last night or just thought about the 4th of July?

212-433-WNYC, call or text, 212-433-9692. Cindy in North Central Jersey, you're on WNYC. Hi, Cindy, Happy 5th of July.

Cindy: Thank you. We usually fly an earth flag, that blue marble flag from the first space shots. We didn't have one up because I think we just forgot we had taken it down for another day. I just want to say that I feel like in these right-left conversations that nature gets left out. I know our dogs went wild when we had a lot of gunshots in our area. I live in suburban New Jersey, a lot of local fireworks by neighbors. I wonder about the bats, I wonder about the foxes, I wonder about the animals that are out in nature when all these loud noises are going off. I think that gets forgotten. Not just right-left, it's also humans versus the rest of the world.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting point, Cindy. All right, we could start a whole other text thread here. Listeners, who wants to text us? How did your dogs handle the fireworks in your neighborhood last night? 212-433-WNYC, text us on that one. Chris in Armonk, you're on WNYC. Hi, Chris.

Chris: Good morning, Brian. I am proud to fly a flag in front of my property. I have a flagpole with a light on it that illuminates the flag, and I do it-- I'm a progressive Democrat, I'm a progressive thinker, and I fly my flag very proudly because to me it exhibits participation in this country. When something sad happens in our country, I lower the flag and I put it at half mass. For example, I'm thinking one of these days, one of these years, President Carter is going to pass. When he passes, I have every intention of lowering my flag out of respect for him. That's part of the reason why I like flying my flag.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. I think one thing we learned from President Carter is just because you go into hospice doesn't mean you only have a few days or a few weeks to live, right? Because was that back in February or so? All it really means is you stop getting medical interventions and you get palliative care, those kinds of medical interventions to keep you comfortable for the rest of your life. Here we are almost half a year later, and Jimmy Carter apparently still in hospice care. Thank you for mentioning that. Oh, we have a couple of people who've inherited flags that they want to mention. Greg in Morristown is one. Hi, Greg, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Greg: Hi, Brian. I just wanted to mention that I inherited a flag. This has been in my family for generations. It is as large as a small blanket. It represents when Oklahoma became the 46th state. Oklahoma became the 46th state on November 16th in 1907 so my flag has 46 stars and I can't put it on a pole. I have to drape it over the front of my house.

Brian Lehrer: A 46-star flag. Greg, what feelings does it inspire in you when you drape it over as you described outside your house?

Greg: Well, two things. One, it's an American flag and like your prior caller said, we're Americans. It's showing being an American, but because it's been in my family for generations, it's like a family heirloom. Those two things.

Brian Lehrer: Greg, thank you very much. All right. It looks like Chris in Stanford, Connecticut inherited a flag that was from a little bit later than Greg's. Hi, Chris, you're on WNYC.

Chris: Yes, 100% Brian. I inherited this. My mom passed last year. It's a 48-star flag. I had every intention of putting it out this year, I haven't flown it yet. I went to a Juneteenth celebration in Stanford, and my state rep who happens to be African-American, among other things said that July 4th doesn't mean independence to her as much as Juneteenth does. It really did give me pause this year as I felt a little bit conflicted about it. I'm a progressive white guy in my 60s but I consider myself patriotic too. It was a different experience for me to hear that from my state rep.

Brian Lehrer: Chris, thank you very much. Albert in Toms River, you're on WNYC. Hi, Albert.

Albert: Hey, how are you, Brian? I have two flags. One on the left, one on the right. One is the American flag for my patriotism that I illuminate, and proud American. I'm also a moderate Republican and I have a Let's Go Brandon flag to show my disdain for the current government that we have in place.

Brian Lehrer: For people who don't know, Let's Go Brandon, it's kind of FU Joe Biden kind of phrase, right?

Albert: Yes, correct. It came out of a congressional setting where one of the speakers was yelling to another saying those words and he interpreted, "What? Let's Go Brandon," something of that nature. Then it just caught fire and you'll see a lot of those in the Ocean County, New Jersey area. If you ever make your way down to the Jersey Shore, you'll see the southern Jersey is more Republican in my opinion.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, I think that's right.

Albert: The northern half of New Jersey was Democrats.

Brian Lehrer: Down in the Toms River area where you are. For you then, flying an American flag, I know progressives who say, "When I see an American flag outside a house now, I generally assume that that's a Republican household." Is that part of what you're representing by flying the American flag?

Albert: I don't know if that has a dividing line. I just heard from your caller, you have a lot of proud Democrats. Like I said, I think the Democratic era of 30 years ago was different than today's standards. You had blue-collar workers, different reasons to become a Democrat, and we can have a whole nother show on that. For my personal use, I want to show that I'm a proud American. I happen to be a Republican, but when they came out with that "Let's go Brandon" flag I just felt that urge to say, "Wow, I'm really upset with the way the current administration is handling things." It just expresses it whether you want to believe it or not. That's my opinion, and that's how I worry badly.

Brian Lehrer: Albert, thank you very much. Thanks for sharing that with us. Martin in Huntington, you're on WNYC. Hi, Martin.

Martin: Hi, Brian. How are you this afternoon? Thank you for taking my call. I've been a longtime listener and little did I think I'd be calling in about the flag flying. I thought it'd be about some other issue, but this one really strikes at home for me. I have multiple flags. I have an American flag. I fly the--

Brian Lehrer: Oops. Did we lose you there?

Martin: Hello?

Brian Lehrer: Oh, you're breaking up. You fly the American flag, but then you fly other flags too. That's the story you're telling, right? Try it again.

Martin: Yes, I do. I fly other flags to express my feelings. The US flag has been hijacked by the conservative side I feel and the flag belongs to everyone. I fly it because I want to recapture it. I want to reclaim it for everyone in this country. By flying other flags, it's like a cue or a signal that I am not of the conservative fence. I fly a piece sign flag. I fly flags in reference to Tolkien. I fly flags of the world. I fly other national flags. I fly flags for my daughter's schools that they attended. Unfortunately, I fly the New York Mets flag occasionally, every once in a while when they win one. I think it's important that--

Brian Lehrer: They haven't yet in July.

Martin: No.

Brian Lehrer: Is it possible that the progressives have abandoned the American flag just as you say the conservatives have co-opted it?

Martin: I don't know if everyone has. I'm hearing some of your other callers. It's heartening to hear. I think, unfortunately if people of color of minorities when they go to a neighborhood and they see US flags flying, I think it's unfortunately--

Brian Lehrer: Tends to me in a certain thing these days too many people. We have to leave it there because we are out of time. Listeners, you can keep texting us. What do you think the American flag means? Is it a political symbol as well as a unifying national one now or instead of a unifying national one, from whatever point of view you are coming from? That's The Brian Lehrer Show for today. Produced by Mary Croke, Lisa Allison, Amina Srna, Carl Boisrond, and Esperanza Rosenbaum. Zach Gottehrer-Cohen produces our daily politics podcast. We had Shayna Sengstock and Myan Levenson at the audio control. Stay tuned for Alison.

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