Getting 'Re-Active' with W. Kamau Bell and Hari Kondabolu

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Before we get to Hari Kondabolu and W. Kamau Bell, I want to pass along a piece of sad news that just crossed, Hank Aaron died. He was 86, the baseball great who became the all-time home run leader in the 1970s when he passed Babe Ruth's all-time home run record, which was 714 home runs. Hank Aaron went on to hit 755. It was later broken by Barry, probably with an asterisk, Bonds. I want to reflect for just a second on Hank Aaron and race because, of course, he was Black and he broke that home run record when he was playing for the Atlanta team in the '70s.

Here's a little bit of Yahoo Sports's take on it just now. It says Aaron, who was born in Mobile, Alabama in 1934, overcame racism in the deep, deep south and received death threats while pursuing Babe Ruth's record. After he finished the 1973 season one home run short of Ruth's record, he received a high number of threats and racist letters. The FBI investigated the threats as well as kidnapping plots against his children, and he had to be accompanied by an armed guard for his safety. He said the threats forced him to constantly scan crowds after he retired.

Even after he retired, missed his children's graduations, and he couldn't open his mail for two or three years afterward. As we are engaging in a racial reckoning in this country, that part of Hank Aaron's story needs to be told again, as it is being now on the occasion of his death, Hank Aaron, passing at age 86. Now we turn to two comedians who are seriously trying to make sense of American politics, Hari Kondabolu and W. Kamau Bell, besides many other things they do, are co-hosts of the podcast Politically Re-Active.

Kamau also hosts the CNN series, United Shades of America. Hari has a Netflix stand-up special, Warn Your Relatives now out. Hari, welcome back. Kamau, welcome to WNYC.

1. Kamau Bell: It's great to hear your voice, Brian. It's been a long time.

Brian: We've got Hari. I see line to Kamau dropped out, we will get him reconnected. I don't know if you want to say anything about Hank Aaron. I don't know if baseball was ever your thing.

Hari Kondabolu: Huge baseball fan. I actually just tweeted about it. The amount of pressure that he was under, hitting those home runs towards the end while he was catching Ruth was tremendous. I think people forget that. Also, his career sometimes gets lost in the shuffle, even though he hit 755 home runs, because he didn't have these audacious 50 home run years. He was basically 30, 40 home runs for two decades. He was so consistent. He was the heart of that lineup for such a long time that Milwaukee, then Atlanta Braves lineup.

It's strange that the home run leader sometimes gets lost in the history of baseball, but he does because he also fought for social justice, and I think that gets lost too. I think baseball- as we're moving into this different era, where sports are actually taking more of a stand, athletes are taking more of a stand, I think baseball could probably learn a lot more from Hank Aaron's leadership.

Brian: Here. Your podcast is called Politically Re-Active.

Hari: Politically Re-Active.

Brian: Re-Active. Politically Re-Active. Re-Active because you're reacting to the news or because you are activated again?

Kamau: Both.

Hari: Both. I think it was an attempt at a plan words, but basically, it's both those things. I think we react to what's there, but also we expect. Our show isn't a show that is like, "We try to hear from both sides to figure it out." No, we know where we stand. The question is, really, what are we going to do about it? How are we going to create greater justice in the world? Who's doing the work on the ground and how can we support them? That, to us, is really what the show is about, two friends asking questions, learning along with the audience and figuring out what else they can do.

Brian: Listeners, we can take a few phone calls for Hari Kondabolu and, we hope, W. Kamau Bell, who was on the line a couple of minutes ago before we started. Oh, he's there. Kamau, are you there?

Kamau: I am here. It's a pandemic Wi-Fi.

[laughter]

Brian: I was going to take the blame for it, but if it's your pandemic Wi-Fi--

Kamau: Oh, no, no. It's you. It's definitely you.

Brian: Your latest episode is called Donald Trump: White People's O.J. Why that comparison, Kamau?

Kamau: I don't think we made the comparison. I think Asha Rangappa made the comparison, who was our guest, ex FBI, incredible lawyer, CNN analyst. I think when she was trying to describe the three doors of possible prosecution that Donald Trump could experience after he left office, the third door is called "metaphorical jail," and it's a great analogy of O.J. didn't go to prison for the murder of two people, but he certainly lost his brand and his livelihood and ended up hanging out with a lesser class of people. That was a great way to encapsulate that in one idea that we could all grasp onto.

Brian: Hari, you said-- Go ahead.

Hari: The other part of that idea, too, is O.J. ended up going to prison, but it wasn't from that first trial. I think that was hard for me to hear in terms of, you're saying that Donald Trump after all this still might not go to trial? Our guest, Asha Rangappa believes that there's a good chance he won't. For all of the things, both on the federal and state level, there's still a good chance because he's a former president, and he has strong lawyers, but the idea of committing a crime after the fact when your brand is less, when you don't have the same degree of power and people are paying attention.

That's what happened to O.J and that's also why she made the comparison. We might not get him now, but chances are, he's going to keep criming becaase that's what he can do.

Kamau: [laughs] As the song goes, "Still criming after all these years."

Brian: Listeners, any Hari Kondabolu or Kamau Bell fans want to call in, 646-435-7280. 646-435-7280. You guys also talk about MLK Jr. Day, which was this week, it seems like four months ago, but it was only four days ago, or as you put it, Hari, "White people quoting MLK Jr. Day." You want to elaborate on that?

Hari: To be fair, that's really potentially every day.

Kamau: That's the Christmas of white people crowing MLK Day.

Hari: Oh, God. That's when the big quotes come in out of context, "I have dreams." There's all these quotes that come out of context that don't give the full story. Do you know what I mean? I feel that people will talk about him being against riots and things like that, and he was talking about non-violence, but they missed the quote about rights or the language of the unheard, and also his shifting beliefs towards the end of his life, or the fact that he talked about being closer, his political views being closer to socialism, and his poor people's campaign.

All that gets lost, because in a quote you get whatever's in the quote, you don't actually get the context.

Brian: You talk about what you guys think Martin Luther King might have been like on Twitter. Kamau, what kind of Twitter user might Dr. King have been?

Kamau: I hate to tell everybody, I think he would have been one of those Twitter users who they start everything with like, "Okay, guys, thread, and then it goes on for way too long."

[laughter]

Where it starts out just one dash question mark, you're like, "Oh, no, I've been reading this for a half-hour." [laughs] I don't know if he would do it.

Brian: Overly earnest Twitter?

Kamau: Yes. It would have been good, but you wouldn't have made it through at one sitting. You'd need to bookmark it and got back to it later.

Hari: You'd have to start with the "I have a dream" part. You can't bury that in the 40th tweet. It has to come on top [inaudible 00:08:42].

Brian: David in Westchester has a question for you, Kamau. David, you're on WNYC.

David: Hi. First-time caller, long-time listener, big fan to call you. I was wondering if you would consider going back to embed yourself with white supremacist like you had in the past to see if anything has changed in that scene?

Brian: That caller was very faint. For people who might not have heard him, he asked Kamau if he would consider going back to embed himself with white supremacists like he has in the past to see if anything has changed. You'd do that, Kamau?

Kamau: If he's talking about the first episode of the United Shades of America, the premiere episode from 2016. I didn't embed myself with white supremacists. I took a TV crew. [laughs] I did not pull a Dave Chappelle in a Black-white supremacist, but I did hang out with some Klan members in 2014 way before Trump was President. We did a follow-up episode, basically a follow-up white supremacy episode just to make it clear that that's not the worst end of white supremacy, but I will not go back to hang out with the Klan. That was a one-time-only ticket. I think we know what came of that, it was called Donald Trump. I don't think-- We did an episode following up where we actually talked to ex white supremacists about what was so seductive to it and why they finally got out of it.

Brian: I want to take a call that's not about content of your podcast. Kamau, before you came on, Hari and I were talking a little bit about the death of Hank Aaron, which just got announced this morning.

Kamau: Yes, I want to be clear. I have been a resident of Mobile, Alabama. My dad lives in Mobile, Alabama. I grew up right near Hank Aaron way, so I know-

Brian: Oh, that's cool.

Kamau: - a lot about Hank Aaron.

Brian: We talked about some of the racism and death threats and everything that he was subjected to before and after he broke Babe Ruth's home run record, so we were doing that before you came on. Robert in Atlanta wants to share a Hank Aaron memory. Robert, you're on WNYC. Hello from New York.

Robert: Wow. Thank you so much. I was born in Atlanta, and in '61. Aaron was, gosh, a hero to me as a kid. Matter of fact, my brother played football against his son here in town. I was downstairs in my home watching that ball game, I think Al Downing was pitching.

Hari: That's right.

Robert: I did something against my dad's wishes and he sent me up to my bedroom. About five minutes later, dammit, Aaron didn't hit the winning, the 7-15 a run. [laughs] I gave my dad hail, he died last year, for the rest of his life for making me miss one of the most important hits in history, but he invited me down to see the replay, which was great, but I'll always remember that. Aaron was such a hero to a lot of kids my age. I'm now 59. I was very sad to hear that news, as you just told it. Thank you for telling us, though.

Brian: Robert, thank you very much. Hari had some things to say about Hank Aaron before you came on. Do you want to add anything, Kamau?

Kamau: No, clearly, I think for a lot of people he's still the home run leader, even though I live in the Bay Area, and I know a lot of Bay Area people are not happy about the idea of your quote about Barry Bonds needs the asterisk. Yes, I remember reading in Sports Illustrated that he saved as hate mail, which I thought was just so fascinating that he felt that he wanted to keep a record of it. I think we have to, as you said afterwards, he had hate threats even after he stopped playing baseball, and again, it's connect to that last color. White supremacy does not start in with the KU Klux Klan. White supremacy is through all the structures and systems of this country.

Brian: Larry, in Eastern Pennsylvania, you're on WNYC with Hari Kondabolu and W. Kamau Bell. Hi, Larry.

Larry: Hi. How are you doing? I want to ask the guests, have they seen the movie American Factory? Do they think that if they have- it's an indication of the future of American manufacturing?

Brian: That's a very serious--

Kamau: I'll answer that one first.

Brian: Okay.

Kamau: I have three kids, so mostly I've just seen what's on Disney Plus. I've heard of American Factory, but I have not seen it yet.

Brian: Hari, in the podcast-- Go ahead.

Hari: Go ahead.

Brian: You want to talk about them, too?

Hari: No, I haven't seen it. I also haven't seen it, so I feel bad that I can't answer.

Kamau: [laughs] Don't feel bad, you had a new baby.

[laughter]

Brian: You talked about in the podcast after the insurrection, you highlighted the story of one person who's now been arrested for it, a real estate agent from Texas named Jenna Ryan who was live-streaming the riot and plugging her business the whole time. Do I have that right?

Kamau: Yes, you have that correct. Yes. She had a private jet to the- she took a private jet to the insurrection. If you look at the footage without knowing what's happening, you would think she was maybe celebrating her sports team winning, except every now and again she threatens life and death. She turns to the camera and says, "Jenna Ryan, I'll be your realtor." Then when she got arrested, she went on her local news and asked and demanded that Donald give her a pardon, which apparently he doesn't watch the local Dallas news because he did not.

Brian: Hari, you want to add to that?

Hari: Yes, that's just the audacity of caucasity. I believe that's an example of that. If you are committing a crime, you are recording yourself committing a crime. You are talking about the crime that you want to commit, while also giving your name and your business, treating this somehow as an opportunity for advertising, because you can't imagine the possibility that you'd get in trouble, that is stunning.

Kamau: As many people pointed out, this is why the Ku Klux Klan wore hoods, because they knew it wasn't a good look, literally to be an out-loud racist.

Brian: Yes. That's a good phrase. The audacity of caucasity. I'm going to remember that one, Hari, and it's such audacity. I talked about this once already, but it's like Charlottesville, where they didn't feel like they needed to wear hoods anymore. They just came out in their khakis and just right out there, and the same thing at the riot, they felt so entitled to be doing that, that they didn't even try to hide their identities. They took videos of themselves.

Kamau: Again, let's remember that it was because in both situations they felt they had the backing of their president, Donald Trump. Those people in- as much as I want all of them to be prosecuted and arrested, I do have a little bit of sympathy, but they're like, "The president told me to do this." If you're going to arrest and prosecute them, then I think there's one other person we also need to talk about arresting and prosecuting, the ringleader, Donald Trump.

Hari: That's exactly it. I just saw the wires, so please keep this in mind with this analogy. We're looking for street-level dealers when we really need to be going after where the drugs are coming from, and that would be Donald Trump. Again, this is a metaphor, so--

Kamau: [laughs] Let's not forget if we're going to extend this metaphor to the top dealers, let's also talk about Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz.

Hari: Yes.

Brian: I will note, by the way, before we get too far from the moment that I'm sure, Kamau and Hari, you had a lot of parents' heads nodding out there, when you basically said, having small kids at home, you don't have time to watch documentaries.

[laughter]

I think you really hit the zeitgeist with that one.

Kamau: Yes.

Brian: Nandini in Fort Worth, you're on WNYC with W. Kamau Bell and Hari Kondabolu. Hi, Nandini.

Nandini: Good morning. Thank you so much for taking my call. Mr. Bell, Mr. Kondabolu, I am a huge fan. I'm also a woman of color. I'm Indian and I'm a teacher here in Texas. I want to thank you, even though you do it with the comedic lens, you push inequality to the forefront. I think white people, especially white moderates, need to be reminded of inequality because they often forget, or they pretend it doesn't exist.

I wanted to ask you, since you're on the show I've been listening to since I was a freshman at NYU, in 2008, I wanted to ask you, aside from your appearances on Mr. Lehrer's show, what do you think we can all do to push news outlets to ultimately prioritize inequality?

Brian: Nandini, I'm going to come in because we have 45 seconds left in the show, and I want them to have time to answer your question. Hari, come out, take it away. Anything you want to say, plug the podcast, respond to Nandini. 45 seconds. Go.

Kamau: Nandini, never, never stop talking about it. Always push it. If you have social media, your teacher, put it in the classroom. If you can, sneak it in there, if you have to, never stop bringing it up.

Hari: If the stories that are trending, that you're passing around are about inequality and injustice and truth and stuff like that, I think if this is all about analytics and numbers, I think news networks probably need to say, "Oh, anti-racism is hot right now. Maybe we should push that up the agenda," Politically Re-Active out every Thursday. Brian: Hari also has his new Netflix special, Warn Your Relatives, and Kamau also hosts the CNN series United shades of America. Thanks for sharing some time with us today. I really appreciate it.

Kamau: Thank you.

Hari: I appreciate it, Brian. Thank you.

Brian: Have a good weekend, everyone. Brian Lehrer on WNYC.

 

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